80 Transcript

080 Pinks and Blues: Filming Amines


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Welcome to Scaling UP! H2O the podcast
where we’re Scaling UP! on water

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treatment knowledge so you’re not
Scaling UP! your systems hello everybody

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Scaling UP! nation Trace Blackmore
here so happy to be coming at you right

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here on Scaling UP! H2O folks thanks so
much for giving me some ideas for the

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show this coming year thank you so much
for your feedback on this shows this

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past year that really helps me do a
better job and it also makes me smile

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because that means you guys are
listening to the show so thank you very

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much for that last year at the
association of water technologies annual

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0:55.9

convention and Expo I had the privilege
of speaking at four separate occasions

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1:02.2

that was a great honor and one of the
presentations that I delivered was an

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1:08.7

experiment that we did here at Blackmore
enterprises to get some first-hand data

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1:13.8

on filming amines I know filming amines
are not new they’ve been around for a

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1:20.3

very very very long time but they are
making a presence in the water treatment

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1:25.7

industry and what I mean by that is even
though it’s an older technology people

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1:31.1

are now starting to use them in a
different way now we hear black water

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1:37.3

prizes have been using filming amines in
steam boilers for at least the past five

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1:42.0

years I think we were experimenting with
them even before that and we’ve had some

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1:47.1

fantastic results and I know that
listeners out there of the Scaling UP! Nation

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1:52.9

have had results that have either
been just as good or you’ve just had

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1:58.3

this disastrous experience with filming
amines and I know this because you’ve

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2:04.3

come up to me and you’ve talked to me
about that and I want to say that there

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2:11.0

was probably a reason that you have
received those poor results we just need

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2:15.9

to figure out what that is but we hear
Blackmore enterprises we have had very

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2:20.9

good results but we’re also very
intentional in how

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we use the product so filming means if
you are not familiar with how filming

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amines work they basically coat the
entire surface that you are trying to

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protect and anything between the filming
amine and the wall interface it is going

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to clean off of the systems now most of
the systems that I have heard that have

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2:54.8

had issues were pretty neglected systems
and the product the filming amine was

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3:01.7

used very fast when they were putting
the filming amine in so I think what

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3:06.6

happened and I know this is different
case-by-case but the cases that I have

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3:11.8

heard of it sounds like what happened is
that those systems were cleaned too

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3:17.5

quickly and that created a problem
because all that gunk and yes gunk is a

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3:22.8

water treatment correct term and the
gunk was liberated from the entire

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3:28.4

system and then it had no place to go
and that’s normally where it clogs

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3:33.1

something up or created some sort of
problem so if that was your issue

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3:40.8

perhaps you use too much filming I mean
too fast I’ve also heard instances where

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3:47.2

they were just very old systems or they
were very neglected systems and quite

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3:54.8

frankly those systems were destined to
be doomed all along and you just hasten

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3:59.6

the process because all the rust and
debris was actually acting as a bridging

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4:04.8

band-aid and once you took that off you
created a sprinkler system and I want to

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say of all of the horror stories that I
have heard that is the reason that you

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4:17.1

had that issue now here’s the thing
filming amines are cleaners so they are

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4:24.0

going to clean the surface how quickly
do you want those to clean and a lot of

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4:29.2

the manufacturers recommend that you
calculate the ideal dose and then you

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cut that in
hathwell folks we hear Blackmore

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4:38.6

enterprises we actually cut that either
in a third or a quarter because as you

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4:46.1

all know it is so much easier to add
than it is to take away well it’s with

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4:50.3

all of this and of course I’m talking
about steam boilers now it’s with all of

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4:55.4

this that we had a lot of experience
with steam boilers but I didn’t have any

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5:00.7

experience with closed loop systems so
that’s what I spoke about this past

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5:07.5

September at the AWT annual convention
and Expo what we did for about a year’s

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5:14.3

time is we took a system that we had
excellent control over that had an

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5:20.2

aluminum hot loop boiler and as all of
you know out there and some of you don’t

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know aluminum is just so difficult to
treat aluminum is one of those metals

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that it really likes to corrode and high
and low pH well you got a thick one are

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you gonna go high you’re gonna pick low
aluminum doesn’t like it whichever one

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that you pick and then that creates a
corrosive environment well closed loops

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folks we have solved how to treat closed
loops many many many years ago and when

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we had a metal like aluminum to it well
now it’s not playing by the rules and

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what I mean by that is most of us are
using something like a nitrite based

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6:08.1

program and a high pH buffered system so
we probably have a pH of 8.5 probably

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all the way up to nine point nine
somewhere around that area and we do

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6:17.7

that because the higher the pH in that
environment we actually can inhibit the

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corrosion going on in the mild steel and
of course we probably have some easels

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and things like that in there to protect
the yellow metal’s everybody was nice

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and happy well then some engineers came
along and they said you know what we’re

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gonna start making these boilers
Incentive out of copper and nickel we’re

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6:38.9

gonna start making these boilers out of
aluminum because aluminum is such a

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6:44.1

light metal it’s very efficient when
we’re trying to transfer heat

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and it is a cheaper material so hey
that’s a when when when it sounds great

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let’s start making these boilers out of
aluminum but nobody thought about the

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water treaters perspective so now we
have copper in the system we have mild

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steel in the system and now we have this
boiler that’s made out of aluminum well

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folks each one of those metals is
treated differently and in a pH

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7:16.7

environment that the other metal does
not like so you’ve got to pick one are

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you going to treat the aluminum and
sacrifice a little bit the mild steel in

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the copper or are you going to pick the
mild steel and copper and dramatically

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sacrifice the aluminum well obviously
we’re probably going to choose to

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protect the aluminum more than the mild
steel and copper but just realize that

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that’s not the great environment that
we’re used to that we’re getting such

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7:48.4

great results with all right so that was
the setup for why I wanted to use a

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7:53.3

filming amine in a closed-loop
environment with an aluminum boiler

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because again the filming amine is
supposed to coat the entire surface

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including the aluminum the iron the
copper so that should give us pretty

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good results and I’ve talked to people
that said they had great results of

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course if you talk to the manufacturers
they say you’re going to have

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8:16.6

outstanding results in every case study
they’ve ever done has been fantastic

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well folks I love information like that
but I tell you I’ve got to have it

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firsthand because folks out there in the
scale in that nation you’re gonna ask me

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8:30.1

questions and I can say well somebody
told me this but I have no first-hand

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8:35.7

experience or if somebody that works in
my company wants me to support something

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8:42.8

or give them some advice I can do that
so much easier when I have touched it

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and felt it and smelt it and wrote it
down and all those other things that I’m

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8:53.7

sure we do when we’re running a test so
that’s what I wanted to do with this I

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8:56.5

wanted to make sure that I had first
hand

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9:02.1

experience and we were looking for a new
solution when it came to treating these

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9:10.0

aluminum hot loot boilers so with that
we decided that we wanted to have the

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least amount of variables that we could
and folks this is something that

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whenever you’re running an experiment I
want to encourage you to do how many

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9:26.0

variables can you cut out and so many
times we have a problem system that we

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9:31.0

have never been able to get under
control and then we’re gonna try a new

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9:33.6

product on it to try to get it under
control

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well sometimes that works great and
sometimes that’s disastrous and maybe

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that’s what was happening in some of the
systems that I talked about that other

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people were talking to me about at the
top of the show I don’t know but when I

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9:52.6

am using a new product when I’m doing an
experiment I want to make sure that I

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have a system that I already have under
control and that’s what we did we chose

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a system that for the past six years it
had aluminum boiler and it still does

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have an aluminum boiler in it and we
were getting fantastic results based on

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our corrosion coupon studies and yes
folks I do use corrosion coupons in my

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10:17.3

clothes loops because otherwise how do
you know so based on these studies we

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were getting really good results so we
were getting good results on the

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aluminum we were getting good results on
the copper and the mild steel the other

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reason we chose this is because we had
that data unfortunately we don’t have

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10:36.4

Kuroshio ponds on every single one of
our close loops

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10:41.5

against my wishes but sometimes there’s
no room for it sometimes customer

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10:46.3

doesn’t want to pay for it sometimes
there’s just no room to install at some

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times there is no money in the budget
for the customer to pay for it

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whatever it is unfortunately we do not
have corrosion coupons on every single

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one of our closed loops but this one we
did so with that we use the data and we

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11:07.1

knew that we were getting good results
for the past six years so we did a

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11:10.1

couple of things we wanted to make sure
we had plenty of data

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so we verified of course that we were
getting good results and all the

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metallurgy that was there and then we
verified how many gallons we were

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treating folks if you did not know it
you are a water treaty and if you do not

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know how many gallons of water that you
are treating how on earth are you going

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to treat that water so I want to share
with you how to figure out in a

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11:41.0

closed-loop how many gallons you have
but by all means you have to know how

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11:46.5

many gallons you have in any system that
you are treating because your job is

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11:52.5

water treater next thing we did is we
didn’t want to give any credit to our

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12:00.1

previous product to the filming amine
product that we were testing and we had

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12:06.0

an acyl nitrate nitrate borate polymer
blend that we were using for the past

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12:11.7

six plus years and again getting really
good results with that so we wanted to

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12:17.7

go ahead and flush that out just to make
sure that the results that we received

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12:23.3

were only due to the filming amine not
any other inhibitor that might be there

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12:27.4

and folks I want to share the filming to
mean that we use we use Odyssey Zod a

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12:35.5

therm FS 500 R which is their closed
loop aluminum product and then for fun

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12:43.1

because I always like to add fun into my
experience we added some PT sa to the

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12:48.3

product and what I did by weight I made
it so when there was three thousand

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12:52.8

parts-per-million
of product in the system that we would

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12:59.3

achieve 100 parts per billion in PT si
so that’s pretty much the whole set up

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13:06.4

of our tests now I mentioned we had to
figure out how much water we have in our

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13:11.1

system and folks if you’ve ever seen me
present at the AWT you know and I’ve

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13:13.8

already said it here one of my biggest
pet peeve is when we’re treating water

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13:19.3

and we don’t know how much water we are
treating well folks math will help us

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13:23.8

out with this math is one of the few
things

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13:29.4

that helped us navigate the chaos that
is water treatment and here is one of

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the very few axioms that we have in the
water treatment industry are you ready

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for this here it comes right at you from
my lips through the airwaves into your

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speaker through your ears one pound of
anything in a thousand gallons of water

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will yield a hundred and twenty parts
per million you think in well a pound of

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what trace well a pound of anything I
have a pound of sodium molybdate and I

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14:01.8

have a thousand gallons of water and I
put that 1 pound of sodium a live date

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in that thousand gallons of water I will
test a hundred and twenty parts per

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million of sodium molybdate if I had
sodium chloride the same thing well in

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14:21.0

this case I have sodium nitrite probably
your favorite closed loop mild steel

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14:27.3

inhibitor so here is what we are going
to do we are going to test the system

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14:32.4

and see how much sodium nitrite we have
in the system and I know what you’re

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14:36.8

saying trace I don’t have a sodium
nitrite test I have a nitrite test well

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14:40.1

folks you can just simply do the
conversion on that that’s very simple

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14:44.6

and that’s actually using your periodic
table I’m not going to bore people with

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14:48.6

that but that is very simple to do I’m
just going to assume that we’re all

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14:55.5

using sodium nitrite test if you have
issues with this I guarantee on your

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15:01.4

sodium nitrite test or on your nitrite
tests you have conversion numbers to go

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15:06.1

back and forth for each of the species I
promise that will be in your test

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15:09.5

procedures I’ve never seen one that does
not have one so here’s what we’re going

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15:13.5

to do we’re going to take a sample and
we’re gonna figure out how much sodium

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15:18.9

nitrite is in that sample and folks here
is the deal you have to have you have to

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15:24.3

start with some sodium nitrite otherwise
all that sodium nitrite is going to go

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15:29.0

to work in your system now if you’re
using sodium nitrite in your system you

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15:34.2

probably have a residual you should have
a residual if you don’t you’ve got some

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15:37.2

issues you
you are testing for that residual and

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15:42.7

that means that all of the nitrite is
used up where it needs to be used up and

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15:47.7

that’s what’s giving you a residual so
you do that you have that residual and

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15:53.9

now you’re gonna add one pound per
thousand gallons so you’re gonna

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15:59.1

estimate about how many gallons you have
and the way you want to do this is you

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16:03.2

want to dissolve that sodium nitrite so
that way you don’t have to worry about

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16:07.4

crystals floating somewhere and not
dissolving or getting to the bottom of

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16:11.6

the pot feeder or clogging up a line or
something like that just dissolve it it

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totally takes any issues out of the
equation with dissolving then you would

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16:22.0

put that 1 pound that you have dissolved
into the pot feeder you will let that

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16:28.7

circulate now here’s the key everything
in that system has to be on or you are

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16:32.1

not going to be able to measure that so
you need to work with your customer and

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16:38.9

make sure that they turn every single
valve on every part of that system on so

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16:43.7

it’s getting good circulation and you
want that to circulate for about a day

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16:46.9

and you already know that there’s no
leaks in the system of course if you

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16:49.9

have leaks you’re gonna have issues
you’re not going to be able to do this

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16:54.3

after the next day after about 24 hours
you want to come back you’re gonna grab

16:54.3

17:00.0

a sample and then you are going to
compare your original sample before you

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17:05.2

added the pound and then after that
pound was distributed evenly through the

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17:11.6

entire system and then you were gonna
plug it into this equation a hundred and

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17:14.9

twenty thousand and by the way one
hundred twenty thousand is used a lot in

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17:18.6

water treatment because of that axiom
that I just said the axiom is is one

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17:22.7

pound of anything in a thousand gallons
of water is going to yield a hundred and

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17:26.0

twenty parts per million so if we just
squish all that together we get a

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17:30.6

hundred and twenty thousand I actually
prove that when I do my math portion at

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17:34.2

the association of water technologies
technical training I’m not going to do

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17:37.9

that here just take my word for it so if
you can visualize here’s the equation

17:37.9

17:43.7

the numerator which is the top part of
the equation is a hundred and twenty

17:43.7

17:49.1

thousand times the pounds of sodium
nitrite you add

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17:54.7

all right so now the denominator so
that’s the bottom part so what we just

17:54.7

18:00.3

said was over this next part I’m going
to say is under so whatever you just got

18:00.3

18:05.4

the hundred and twenty thousand times
the pounds of sodium nitrite you added

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18:08.9

so if it was a hundred twenty thousand
we added one pound it would be a hundred

18:08.9

18:15.2

and twenty thousand divided by the
change of sodium nitrite that your one

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18:21.4

pound got you so what that is is it’s
the final sodium nitrite result that you

18:21.4

18:28.5

got in parts per million minus the
initial result that you got in parts per

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18:32.3

million now that’s the Delta so if you
just wanted to say it’s a hundred and

18:32.3

18:37.8

twenty thousand times the pounds you
added divided by the change of sodium

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18:42.2

nitrite and then you just simply divide
that through and folks when I did this

18:42.2

18:50.0

in this system I got 1,300 gallons I
knew that we needed to treat for 1300

18:50.0

18:55.7

gallons so now I can use math every time
I do my dosing to make sure that I’m

18:55.7

19:00.6

dosing the proper amount and if you’re
doing a test I know that you wanted me

19:00.6

19:06.0

to make sure that I was dosing the
proper amount so we did all of this

19:06.0

19:10.4

through a filter feeder and I am a firm
believer that if you do not have a

19:10.4

19:16.5

filter on your closed-loop system you
are not getting the job done folks our

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19:21.6

job is to make sure that our heat
transfer surfaces are as clean as

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19:26.4

possible and if you don’t have a filter
in there there is no way that you are

19:26.4

19:31.9

getting that as clean as it needs to be
so that’s just my little soapbox for

19:31.9

19:37.7

that put a filter on all of your clothes
loops and the neat thing was this is a

19:37.7

19:42.4

closed loop filter feeder that we’ve had
for the past six years and we had

19:42.4

19:46.8

pictures of the lid now you’re not going
to be able to see the pictures of the

19:46.8

19:51.3

lid through my voice of course I’m gonna
put it on my show notes page but because

19:51.3

19:56.5

we had good data and because we had this
filter feeder there we were able to get

19:56.5

20:01.3

some pretty good extra data that we were
not counting on I’ll share that with you

20:01.3

20:05.5

later
just to recap what we did is we went

20:05.5

20:12.0

ahead and we got a system size so we
knew exactly how many gallons of water

20:12.0

20:17.2

we were treating for and this was in a
system that we had good results and

20:17.2

20:20.5

actually had excellent results and there
were no issues we were trying to solve

20:20.5

20:24.8

the only thing we were doing was we were
replacing the current inhibitors our

20:24.8

20:30.8

current program with this new filming
amine program and now we’re to the point

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20:34.4

where we flushed the system we went
ahead and got everything out of the

20:34.4

20:38.6

system we did this online and we tested
a couple of things we tested

20:38.6

20:45.6

conductivity we tested pH we tested azof
we tested nitrite and I’m sure there was

20:45.6

20:48.5

something else that we tested their
alkalinity we tested all those and

20:48.5

20:55.2

everything met that of the incoming
water except for alkalinity alkalinity

20:55.2

20:59.1

was a little bit high it takes a while
for you to flush all that through but we

20:59.1

21:03.5

were okay with that with all the other
ions out of the system with pH and

21:03.5

21:09.3

conductivity being really close we
decided that that was flushed enough and

21:09.3

21:11.8

folks whenever you flush a closed-loop
system you’ve got to make that

21:11.8

21:14.8

determination if you’re trying to get
exactly that of make up water

21:14.8

21:19.2

you’re probably gonna waste a lot of
water and that’s not really necessary so

21:19.2

21:23.1

we decided that we got to a certain
point we were good with that and then we

21:23.1

21:28.2

started adding the filming amine now the
filming amine manufacturers recommend

21:28.2

21:33.6

that you have the dose and then one
month later you come back and you add

21:33.6

21:39.2

the remaining half a dose so you have
the entire dose in the system but over a

21:39.2

21:44.3

one month period well we wanted more
data than that so what we did was we

21:44.3

21:48.9

quartered the dose now the recommended
dose is three thousand parts per million

21:48.9

21:56.5

so one quarter dose was 750 parts per
million so over that same two-month

21:56.5

22:02.7

period that I just mentioned instead of
this month we were going to put in 1500

22:02.7

22:06.1

in the following month we’re gonna put
in another 1,500 we’re going to do the

22:06.1

22:11.0

same three thousand parts-per-million
dose but 750 at a time every two weeks

22:11.0

22:15.0

so within that same two-month period we
will eventually get to

22:15.0

22:19.0

the 3000 I hope I didn’t lose anybody
there but we just did that to get some

22:19.0

22:25.4

more data we did have some issues with a
contractor while we were putting the DOS

22:25.4

22:31.4

in I’ll share that with you coming up
shortly and then we use several of the

22:31.4

22:38.0

filming amine test kits to verify that
we had residual filming amine present

22:38.0

22:42.7

now there were three test kits that we
use we use the key metrics we use the

22:42.7

22:48.8

one by Aqua Phoenix and then we use one
by masters all of those worked extremely

22:48.8

22:53.3

well and I’m going to share with you
some of the things that we learned with

22:53.3

22:57.2

those testings so what I’m basically
saying any test that you have it will

22:57.2

23:04.8

work fine well I told you about the lid
in the closed loop filter and the lid if

23:04.8

23:09.4

you could see the picture if you can go
to my show notes page and look at the

23:09.4

23:13.4

presentation that I put on my show notes
page it’s the same presentation that I

23:13.4

23:18.2

gave at the association of water
technologies convention you will see the

23:18.2

23:23.9

most beautiful black magnetite you have
ever seen in your life and you folks out

23:23.9

23:29.6

there as water treaters I know you feel
the same way that is water treaters

23:29.6

23:36.3

nirvana it’s that beautiful dark dull
magnetite color that we all aspire to

23:36.3

23:40.1

get because we know that that’s allowing
us to corrode the metal so we don’t

23:40.1

23:43.8

corrode the metal further I love saying
that to new water triggers it just makes

23:43.8

23:47.7

their heads pop off so we got a picture
of that up there and we also have

23:47.7

23:54.4

pictures of the filter bags every single
time we service this account we were

23:54.4

23:58.6

servicing it on a weekly to every two
week basis and then we drop down to

23:58.6

24:04.2

every month and the first thing that we
noticed was when we flushed the water

24:04.2

24:09.1

through the system the first thing that
we noticed when we flush the system is

24:09.1

24:13.9

we had very clear water of course that
you would probably anticipate that well

24:13.9

24:20.5

it took about two and a half days for us
to flush the system and that beautiful

24:20.5

24:26.2

black magnetite lid that I was telling
you about now has rust spots on it so

24:26.2

24:30.4

folks if you ever run
product you have a leak in your system

24:30.4

24:33.7

you think oh I’m just going to get to
that next month or the customer doesn’t

24:33.7

24:38.5

think it’s important for them to tell
you that they just lost a bunch of water

24:38.5

24:44.7

in their closed-loop system if you look
at this lid and compare two days before

24:44.7

24:49.4

and two days after I guess it was almost
three days before and after you will see

24:49.4

24:58.5

that there is obvious orange rust on
that lid it does not take long for us to

24:58.5

25:03.3

damage that nice protective coating that
we have in the system so it is

25:03.3

25:08.9

imperative that when we treat the system
we treat the system all the time that

25:08.9

25:15.3

being said we went ahead and we put the
750 ppm dose after we flushed that

25:15.3

25:22.4

system and we let that go for about two
weeks when we came back that nice clear

25:22.4

25:29.6

water that we left the system with was
now tinted black now it wasn’t black

25:29.6

25:35.2

black you still see through it and then
our filter that we had had a black

25:35.2

25:39.8

surface on it that you could see all the
things that were in there that it was

25:39.8

25:45.3

filtering out now more on that later but
again just some observations and I’ve

25:45.3

25:49.8

got all my filters in the presentation
for you to go to my show notes and look

25:49.8

25:54.1

at so you can see exactly what I’m
looking at now so then after we drain

25:54.1

25:58.3

all of our tests and we had we ran some
tests like we would normally run on a

25:58.3

26:02.2

closed loop but then we also ran the
filming amine test and we got absolutely

26:02.2

26:08.5

no filming amine in the system we then
added an additional seven hundred and

26:08.5

26:12.9

fifty parts-per-million of filming a
mean to the system so that gave us a

26:12.9

26:20.9

part per million total of 1500 parts per
million of our filming amine product so

26:20.9

26:27.8

two weeks later we came back and the
water was even darker and we did have a

26:27.8

26:35.2

positive for the filming amine test and
folks I will let you know that each one

26:35.2

26:40.3

of those tests that we use work
extremely well and a lot of us are

26:40.3

26:44.7

trying to get a residual number
off of that test and I really think

26:44.7

26:49.3

you’re going to make yourself go mad if
you do that we were not able to repeat

26:49.3

26:52.7

those results now what I mean by that is
you go ahead and you set up your test

26:52.7

26:56.9

and then you put it in a
spectrophotometer and it tells you you

26:56.9

27:01.8

have so many parts per million of
filming I mean I’m here to tell you that

27:01.8

27:07.5

every single one of the tests that we
ran did very well of saying that there

27:07.5

27:13.2

was a positive residual in the system
I’m also here telling you that every

27:13.2

27:19.0

single one of the tests that we ran did
a horrible job of telling you how much

27:19.0

27:24.4

of a residual that is so here’s probably
what you’re saying well trace I need to

27:24.4

27:28.9

know how much of a residual that is
because my company has those parameters

27:28.9

27:34.8

and I need to either add or not add
based on what those parameters are well

27:34.8

27:40.3

folks I was not able to duplicate any
results where I feel comfortable or

27:40.3

27:45.0

anybody on my team feels comfortable
that any of the results that you’re

27:45.0

27:49.2

going to get after you put that prepared
sample in your spectrophotometer is

27:49.2

27:55.8

worth anything and here’s why I say that
we wouldn’t just test one sample I would

27:55.8

28:01.7

have 10 samples in front of me and I
would do them spaced apart so not a lot

28:01.7

28:08.0

of time went by and I could not get a
repeatable result and then if I continue

28:08.0

28:16.9

to test the same vial I got different
results so here’s how I say to use the

28:16.9

28:22.6

filming amine test which again whichever
one you use works well if you use it

28:22.6

28:29.8

like this use it as a go/no-go test if
you have a positive for a filming amine

28:29.8

28:34.5

what that means is is that the filming
amine has coated the entire metal

28:34.5

28:42.1

surfaces in the entire system and now
you have a residual left over that’s

28:42.1

28:47.7

what we’re going for you need a residual
so how much of a residual you have well

28:47.7

28:52.1

here’s how I gauge that if you have and
most of the tests are pink if yours

28:52.1

28:56.5

isn’t whatever color it is let’s just
substitute the word pink for what

28:56.5

29:01.9

that color that is if it is a little bit
pink it means you have a little bit of

29:01.9

29:08.1

residual if you have a lot of pink you
have a lot of residual now how much of

29:08.1

29:12.6

either of those I don’t know but the
whole point is you just need to make

29:12.6

29:18.2

sure you have a residual and that means
that if the coating somewhere in your

29:18.2

29:24.2

system gets rubbed off you have plenty
to replace it now we did not have a

29:24.2

29:30.5

residual when we put 750 in but we did
have a slight residual when we put 1500

29:30.5

29:36.5

in alright so here it is the fourth week
and we’ve got 1500 parts per million of

29:36.5

29:43.0

our product in the system came back for
the third time and we added an

29:43.0

29:49.1

additional seven hundred and 50 ppm
after we ran our test so now after six

29:49.1

29:53.2

weeks we have a total of two thousand
two hundred and fifty parts-per-million

29:53.2

30:00.7

in the system so and we got a positive
residual for that and you’ll see that

30:00.7

30:04.6

the sample that we have for that looked
pretty much exactly the same as the

30:04.6

30:10.0

sample before that and we did get a
positive result with that on our amine

30:10.0

30:17.6

test well then we had a little issue we
had a system leak and it was nothing to

30:17.6

30:22.8

do with the product our customer had an
issue with a part of their system they

30:22.8

30:28.1

got a contractor to come in and they
pretty much sprung a leak and evacuated

30:28.1

30:35.4

everything that was in the system now
this happened the very next day from the

30:35.4

30:41.2

dose from the service visit that I just
told you about so of course the customer

30:41.2

30:45.5

was very diligent and they knew how
valuable water treatment was so they

30:45.5

30:49.8

called us immediately and said that
there was a leak in the system and we

30:49.8

30:53.8

needed to come out and of course since
we were running that test and they knew

30:53.8

30:57.1

that we were running that test they
didn’t want to skew any of our data so

30:57.1

31:01.0

they called us the second that had
happened I know you’re laughing because

31:01.0

31:05.9

that did not happen
folks we found out about this leak when

31:05.9

31:09.9

we came back two weeks later so now this
is supposed to be two months into the

31:09.9

31:12.8

test
and we had absolutely nothing in the

31:12.8

31:21.2

system and the system was orange in
color we had so much iron in the water

31:21.2

31:27.3

we diluted it so many times and I think
after we diluted it I’m not even gonna

31:27.3

31:33.0

guess we diluted it so many times and we
still could not get a proper iron

31:33.0

31:37.6

residual in the system so we just said
hey there’s a lot of iron in the system

31:37.6

31:43.0

and we of course needed to flush that
out so we thought we were right there we

31:43.0

31:48.4

could start running the test at 3,000
ppm of course we went back to zero and

31:48.4

31:55.0

we had this orange look in water so what
we then did is we flushed that out and

31:55.0

31:59.7

we had a pretty gnarly looking filter
there so once all that water came out of

31:59.7

32:03.4

the system and of course the water was
flowing in a pattern that it wasn’t used

32:03.4

32:06.8

to flowing so that broke up a lot of
stuff keeping in mind that the filming

32:06.8

32:11.3

amine was already working on cleaning up
that stuff so there was a lot of stuff

32:11.3

32:16.6

in the system I think all in all it
probably worked out well but it would

32:16.6

32:19.9

have been great just to see what the
filming mean could have done without

32:19.9

32:25.7

that extra flush Murphy is always worked
into everything that you do and he was

32:25.7

32:31.9

present on this test as well so I have a
picture of that filter bag that we

32:31.9

32:35.4

pulled out there if you want to look at
that and then of course as I said we

32:35.4

32:39.6

flushed the system again and then we
wanted to get results so we had some

32:39.6

32:44.6

results at 750 ppm every two weeks and
we said you know what we’re gonna go

32:44.6

32:50.9

ahead and we’re going to put 1,500 parts
per million of our auto therm FS 500 are

32:50.9

32:56.4

filming a mean closed-loop boiler with
aluminum product into the system so we

32:56.4

33:01.6

did that we came back two weeks later we
did have a positive on our filming a

33:01.6

33:08.5

mean test and we went ahead and put our
final 1500 ppm of our filming amine so

33:08.5

33:14.3

folks we finally did it it took us three
months but we finally got to 3,000 ppm

33:14.3

33:21.2

and as you are probably asking well
trace what about the PTSA that you blend

33:21.2

33:27.6

it in the product well very close
to the start of our test we learned that

33:27.6

33:34.6

filming a mean and PTSA does not play
well together so the way everything was

33:34.6

33:41.4

blended into the system by weight by
math when we had three thousand key p.m.

33:41.4

33:49.8

of product into the system we should get
one hundred parts per billion of PTSA

33:49.8

33:57.3

well folks when we put 750 parts per
million of our filming a mean product

33:57.3

34:03.5

into the system we were well over the
limit of our fluorometer and I believe

34:03.5

34:07.9

that goes up to three hundred and thirty
parts per billion and it was way over

34:07.9

34:14.4

that range so what we learned is that
those who do not play well together and

34:14.4

34:21.3

I have sense the AWT convention I’ve
been in my lab and I can tell you that

34:21.3

34:27.0

PTSA and filming Amin are not linear so
I can’t say add this much and you’ll get

34:27.0

34:32.4

this result because it is all over the
place so if there is an equation to

34:32.4

34:37.8

figure that out I have not figured that
out yet and I know Jim Luca nitch friend

34:37.8

34:41.8

of the show
friend of mine he is doing some similar

34:41.8

34:46.8

experiments so when we get together for
technical training we said we were going

34:46.8

34:52.5

to share a beverage and talk about what
our results were and see if we can

34:52.5

34:55.5

collaborate and get some more
information to the Scaling UP! Nation

34:55.5

35:01.9

but for now PTSA and filming Amin they
do not like each other you will not get

35:01.9

35:06.5

a good result now we have three thousand
parts-per-million of our filming I mean

35:06.5

35:12.5

in the system so we’re just running our
coupons and keep in mind we had a set of

35:12.5

35:19.5

coupons through the entire process that
I told you about now if you go to the

35:19.5

35:26.8

show notes page for this episode you
will see that all of the water samples

35:26.8

35:31.2

are listed there you can see the colors
of those you can also see all of the

35:31.2

35:37.5

filters that we tested you can also see
all of the filters that we pulled out of

35:37.5

35:40.1

the
system now keep in mind the filters that

35:40.1

35:44.0

you’re going to see there there are a
couple of days old when you first look

35:44.0

35:48.9

at the filters and they’re wet they were
black they were that dull black color

35:48.9

35:54.9

and after a couple days they would turn
orange color almost as if they rusted

35:54.9

35:59.6

because that’s exactly what they did now
the reason I put all rust color are all

35:59.6

36:04.9

dry filters in my presentation is
because on one of the trips that we had

36:04.9

36:13.2

we forgot to get a picture of the filter
as it came out of the filter vessel so I

36:13.2

36:19.2

wanted to make everything line up so
everything is the same exposure where

36:19.2

36:22.7

they’re all they’re all taking pictures
of dry so hopefully that makes sense I

36:22.7

36:26.3

just wanted to make sure that everything
was the same and you will also notice

36:26.3

36:34.0

that the nice black surface on the lid
of the filter feeder of course that was

36:34.0

36:40.2

the magnetite you can see that that is
getting stripped off so exactly what we

36:40.2

36:45.3

thought was gonna happen that anything
that was on a metal surface anything

36:45.3

36:50.2

between that metal surface and the
filming I mean that filming amine is

36:50.2

36:57.0

going to clean that off including our
previous corrosion protection so you can

36:57.0

37:02.4

see that very thing happening as you see
my presentation on my show notes page

37:02.4

37:09.6

and you can see on I went ahead and
threw some syringe filters you can see

37:09.6

37:14.9

when we filtered out the water that had
a black tinge through it it looked

37:14.9

37:21.2

exactly like the filters when we
originally took those out so I am some

37:21.2

37:29.0

izing that that is the magnetite getting
cleaned off of the surfaces so we had

37:29.0

37:34.1

this system running for about six months
we had the initial set of coupons and

37:34.1

37:38.7

then once we got about a month’s worth
of data

37:38.7

37:44.2

at three thousand parts-per-million we
added a second set of coupons and then

37:44.2

37:48.9

about every 90 days we changed those
coupons out and folks I’m gonna tell you

37:48.9

37:54.4

we got some really good
coupon results and they were good all

37:54.4

37:58.5

across the board in all the metallurgies
that we tested and that was copper mild

37:58.5

38:05.8

steel and aluminum but I’m also here to
tell you that we got good results with

38:05.8

38:12.6

our original product that we were using
as well so the question that people at

38:12.6

38:17.4

the AWT asked me was do I like this
product and you know water traders

38:17.4

38:21.7

always ask that question that’s such an
arbitrary question yeah like the way it

38:21.7

38:24.9

wears its hair you know it’s really got
a really good label what exactly does

38:24.9

38:30.0

like mean I want to be asked the
question does this product work more

38:30.0

38:37.7

specifically does this product work as
good or better than your existing

38:37.7

38:45.0

product that you were using in the
system and I would say yes it did but of

38:45.0

38:50.6

course with that comes a higher price
tag so it was at least four times more

38:50.6

38:55.4

expensive than the product that I was
using before and it was a closed-loop

38:55.4

38:59.7

system and if you look at the corrosion
coupon results side-by-side which you

38:59.7

39:05.7

can on my show notes page you will see
that they’re not that much better I mean

39:05.7

39:12.3

we’re talking about thousandth of a
point when we’re talking about mils per

39:12.3

39:16.7

year by the way corrosion coupons are
measured in mils per year what the heck

39:16.7

39:23.3

is a mils per year well it’s one
thousandth of an inch lost in metal per

39:23.3

39:30.1

year so now you know what a mils per
year is and we did get better results

39:30.1

39:36.4

but again they were just so close that
if you didn’t have a problem that you

39:36.4

39:43.0

were chasing that your regular product
was not able to solve then that’s when

39:43.0

39:48.5

we go to this product now I will tell
you we have some extremely high

39:48.5

39:54.8

temperature systems that there is no way
that we would be able to run without

39:54.8

40:00.7

scaling some of the things that are in
our other products and we use filming

40:00.7

40:04.3

amines there and we use them very well
and there’s date

40:04.3

40:10.9

to support that the hotter the surfaces
the better the filming amines work so I

40:10.9

40:17.3

hope you see that I didn’t do anything
spectacular with this test and a lot of

40:17.3

40:22.4

you have written in or called me or
talked to me on the floor of the AWT and

40:22.4

40:29.8

let me know how much you appreciated the
phosphate episode that I did when I was

40:29.8

40:36.7

trying to see if the phosphate pens the
SteriPEN z’ worked or not and I just

40:36.7

40:41.4

simply said okay well how am I going to
test that what do I know what am i

40:41.4

40:46.3

trying to find out and how do I
eliminate as many variables as possible

40:46.3

40:49.4

if you guys have not listened to that
show

40:49.4

40:53.1

maybe you should go listen to that show
as well that was one of my favorite

40:53.1

40:58.4

shows to put together so let me know if
you like that but as far as this one

40:58.4

41:04.1

goes I really enjoyed using the filming
I mean product I like using the filming

41:04.1

41:08.8

to mean product it is a great cleaner of
course our product has some cleaners in

41:08.8

41:14.2

it as well it inhibits differently so we
inhibit by that magnetite film we

41:14.2

41:19.6

inhibit by putting a protective coating
once we have that nitrite in the system

41:19.6

41:24.6

well this kind of does the same thing
but it does it indiscriminately which

41:24.6

41:31.7

means it’s going to coat it’s going to
film the entire surface so that was a

41:31.7

41:36.3

closed loop system that we tried it out
in we also did some tests on some

41:36.3

41:40.8

cooling tower systems and if you guys
are wondering the product that we use

41:40.8

41:45.0

for that again our friends at Odyssey
helped us out with that so we use their

41:45.0

41:49.0

autograph p31
and that actually has a bit of

41:49.0

41:55.2

phosphonate in it so it allowed us a
different parameter to test for now

41:55.2

42:01.3

we’ve been using that on an extremely
hot system that we would have no hope of

42:01.3

42:07.6

putting any of our regular phosphate
based programs in the system because we

42:07.6

42:14.0

would be getting scale well with this we
have been getting great results and it’s

42:14.0

42:17.9

it’s a molding facility and when they
take those molds

42:17.9

42:23.8

part they are really clean they look
really good so again these products are

42:23.8

42:31.2

available to you if you are going to try
them out talk to somebody that you trust

42:31.2

42:36.6

that can give you real data my biggest
pet peeve and I have so many in the

42:36.6

42:42.2

water treatment industry is when people
say they like something well folks give

42:42.2

42:47.2

us data let us know what the corrosion
coupons look like let us know what

42:47.2

42:52.9

studies you did let us know what the
situation was on that system before you

42:52.9

42:57.2

replaced it with this new product and
that’s what I tried to do in this

42:57.2

43:02.9

experiment and because we did this we
felt really good at this one system so

43:02.9

43:08.0

we tried it in a couple of other systems
we’ve had good results in every single

43:08.0

43:14.5

one of our systems without a doubt we
have no issue using this product and by

43:14.5

43:19.4

the way we used Odysseys product on this
test but we’ve also used some of the

43:19.4

43:25.4

other products with some other accounts
that we have they all work very well it

43:25.4

43:32.4

just happens to be where you purchase
them from so with that I hope that this

43:32.4

43:38.4

helps you understand how we set up a
test for filming amines that just

43:38.4

43:42.8

because we got good results in our
filming amine test does not mean that

43:42.8

43:46.9

you’re gonna get the same results in
your system because you might have

43:46.9

43:51.5

totally different parameters but you’re
thinking about that now and now you’re

43:51.5

43:55.2

thinking about how much water to
actually need to treat am i putting the

43:55.2

43:59.6

right amount in the days of a fig Allen
is good then five gallons has to be

43:59.6

44:05.0

better folks that is not treating water
please don’t do that please start

44:05.0

44:10.6

figuring out how many gallons of water
that you are treating and then treat for

44:10.6

44:17.1

that find a test that you really believe
in and know how to work and know how to

44:17.1

44:21.3

interpret what happens when the test
shows this color instead of that color

44:21.3

44:24.9

do you know why it does that
if you don’t try to figure that out

44:24.9

44:29.1

because the better you know the test the
better you are going to be able to

44:29.1

44:33.3

interpret results and
better you interpret results that better

44:33.3

44:37.7

you are going to run that program for
that customer and then of course that

44:37.7

44:40.8

customer will love you and he will give
you more business and he will give you

44:40.8

44:45.0

referrals and you will be a happy water
treater to live a very very very long

44:45.0

44:50.0

time folks this was so fun to put this
together I hope you enjoyed this verbal

44:50.0

44:57.1

presentation of the presentation that I
gave with visual aids at the 2018 AWT

44:57.1

45:02.6

convention and Expo as I said this will
be on my show notes page so feel free to

45:02.6

45:07.4

look at my presentation and if you have
something that you want me to look into

45:07.4

45:13.3

a question a product whatever that is
let me know and maybe we can do another

45:13.3

45:21.7

one of these on Scaling UP! H2O I’ll talk
to you next week folks

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