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welcome to scaling up the podcast where
we’re scaling up on knowledge so we
don’t scale up our systems
i am this podcast host trace blackmore
and folks how did you celebrate last
week
industrial water week how cool was that
we had an episode each and every day
people were hashtagging industrial water
week iw20
we were sharing photos it was
awesome so i know we’re all going to be
going through
scaling up h2o withdrawal for the next
couple of weeks
because we had an episode each and every
day
and folks i’ve got to tell you my hat is
off to those podcasters out there that
do a daily show that is
a lot of work and because of that i want
to give
special thanks to my team here at
the scaling up h2o podcast and that of
course is
lauren danielle and sean
the unsung heroes of the scaling up
h2o podcast of course you get to hear me
the host
each and every week well folks it takes
a
village to make this podcast and i just
introduced you to my
village thank you for all you guys do
making sure we always hit our scheduled
date of air time not all podcasts can
say that
some podcasts say that they’re going to
deliver a brand new episode every friday
and sometimes they miss i’m not saying
that we will never miss but
so far we have not missed
a scheduled air date so thank you for
all that you do behind the scenes and i
mentioned withdrawal before
folks i think we’re all going through a
little bit of withdrawal because
we had industrial water week last week
so we all got together each and every
day on this podcast
and then the week before that we had the
association of water technologies
conference
and it just seems like we had so much
stuff going on
all at once and now we’re back to the
regular
day-to-day and it’s so easy for
us to feel isolated especially
during a pandemic and i want everybody
to know
out there that we are part
of a community we’ve been celebrating
that community
for the past two weeks
so when it seems like it’s lonely out
there when it’s just you and your
windshield driving from account to
account
in between servicing customers remember
you are part of the scaling up nation
and we understand what it is that you
are going through so know that you are
probably listening to the same
episode someone else is listening to out
there in the water treatment community
you guys are going through the same
thing and seek
value in the fact that you are part
of a community and i am proud that we
are all part of the scaling up nation i
am proud to be the tribe leader of the
scaling up nation
and nation i want to thank you for all
the things you do
so we get to have this podcast called
scaling
up h2o i think i might have mentioned
on this show once or twice
that i’m a fan of the book the seven
habits of highly effective
people folks it truly is my favorite
book
i read that book for the first time when
i
was 19 and i think it was
one of the biggest gifts somebody ever
gave
to me because it has truly allowed me
to have a philosophy to deal with so
many things
that have come up in my life and how
i’ve dealt with things and how i’ve
achieved things
that i am i think the world’s biggest
fan of the seven
habits of highly effective people
now i’ve read the book several times
i’ve taught the content to several
people
to the best of my ability and i truly
try to live
the content within that book
now the company that produces the book
the seven habits of highly effective
people is a company called franklin
covey and yes they do have other books
and other programs besides
the seven habits of highly effective
people
in fact they got some great programs
there but i believe they’re all based in
the foundation of
the seven habits of highly effective
people
well on today’s show we have someone
with
us from the franklin covey organization
someone who actually wrote one of those
other books
that’s not the seven habits of highly
effective people
his name is chris mcchesney and chris
wrote the four disciplines of execution
i know we have read so many books on
planning well folks this is a
great book that talks about execution
well that’s what we are going to be
talking about today
so please welcome my guest chris
mcchesney
my lab partner today is chris mcchesney
of
franklin covey chris i am so excited
for this interview i am such a franklin
covey fan
i don’t know where we’re going to go
today in this interview but thank you so
much for coming on the show how the heck
are you
i am so good really good thank you so
much
and i’m excited that you’ve got some
history with franklin covey
um this will be fun well the scaling up
nation the listeners of this podcast
have a history especially with the seven
habits it is my all-time
favorite book i had the fortune i was
introduced to that when i was 19 years
old
and it really gave me a structure to
build my life
around and i have spoken about the seven
habits so many times
on this show and i’ve had people i would
say
hundreds of people have told me that
they have read the seven habits of
highly effective people because they
were introduced
to it on scaling up h2o so how cool is
that
i love that that’s so cool to hear that
people are just discovering it right now
my wife and i were introduced to this 29
years ago we both
worked uh for covey’s organization
and we have seven children and we’re
very we’re blessed with a really great
family
and if people when people talk to my
wife one of the first things she’ll tell
them was
getting exposed to that material early
in our marriage
really made a huge difference i tell you
i like to give the seven habits of
highly effective teens uh to young
people i it’s just such a great
resource but i’m sure we’re going to
bring seven habits in and out of this
conversation but you wrote your own book
the four disciplines of execution so can
you tell us a little bit about yourself
before we get into that
yeah the first thing is i don’t write
so i uh i talk a lot and i’m surrounded
by some very good writers actually one
of them was
was stephen covey’s uh second son sean
covey
also jim hewling is a brilliant writer
and there was a team of us
and the best way i could explain this
there’s this great quote i gotta
get attribution for this there’s this
great quote that says it’s better to
fall in love with a problem than to fall
in love with a solution
and you don’t have to think about it
very long to kind of get the idea and i
think we
fell in love with the problem 18 years
ago
of how do leaders execute on a strategy
that requires a high degree of human
buy-in
and you know and that that notion that
problem
is driven you know 4 000 client
engagements
18 years of work the book was published
in 2012 the four disciplines
of execution and we’re just starting the
second edition
um which should come out next year uh
and so that’s been
it’s really consumed all of us that have
been involved in that problem
and you’ve been doing this for 18 years
but you’ve been with franklin covey for
far longer than that
yeah yeah dude a matter of fact i think
april
april i lost track april will either be
29 or 30 years i’ve been
i started as an unpaid intern who didn’t
need an internship i
i i made up my own internship nobody
would hire
i i literally was a stowaway for four
months before they figured out that that
guy
that keeps showing up every day doesn’t
really work for us
and uh yeah so from those humble
beginnings
well and i can’t help but notice you
only have four disciplines of execution
and uh stephen covey has uh seven habits
so
what happened to the other three i i’m
reminded of this i hope that the fact
that i had seven children made up for it
but uh
i i’ve always actually i’ve always had a
fondness for the number four but that
had nothing to do with why it shook out
the way it shook out
so let’s let our audience know what uh
what we’re talking about when we’re
talking about the
four disciplines of execution we’ve
talked a lot about the seven habits on
the show
so how does that relate to the seven
habits and who should be reading the
four disciplines of execution
i love that question particularly
because you’re comparing it to the seven
habits the reason that
the seven habits is the best selling
self-help business book of all time
is because covey got past best practices
and what he described as principles or
natural
laws cubby was a real big believer that
if something isn’t working for you
rather than playing the victim you have
to find out what natural law you’re
violating
and this is this drove him and so really
what you have with the seven habits
are the natural laws of
human effectiveness right what we
if so the problem was human
effectiveness that’s those are the seven
basic fundamental universal laws
well think of execution or the four
disciplines we we i think
we adopted that same mindset and so we
were looking for what are the basic
universal laws of executing a strategy
that requires human buy-in and human
engagement
i mean if a leader can just do something
with the stroke of a pen that’s very
different
but if it really requires a team which
in our opinion is the essence of
leadership
what are the universal laws for that to
actually work
and so that and the disciplines is our
best take
and how to apply those laws like we
didn’t invent the principles
we’ve just done a lot of work on how to
apply them so i’m curious how do you
boil down to
all of those human interactions to just
for how what was your research like how
did you do that
it’s it’s fascinating we actually
started on the negative
and we started looking at all of the
reasons that execution breaks down
and no matter what hypothesis we tested
the answer came back that’s your answer
so the answer is goal clarity the answer
is they don’t care
you don’t have commitment the answer is
they can’t translate it to what they do
i’m saying they like the front line of
the organization the answer is
that you need cross-functional
collaboration like we had 12
root cause reasons why execution breaks
down and we just kept spinning
and so you do this long enough certain
things start to float to the surface
and it really wasn’t the hard
data collecting research that gave us
our answer
it was trial and error with clients
and you you so i’ll just say what the
four principles behind the disciplines
are
the principles are focus leverage
engagement and accountability
and look i’m not naive i know if
somebody else had done this work in a
parallel universe
they might have come up with a different
set or they might have called them
something different
um but what we know is they work like if
you think about air flight
you know we’ve defined air flight around
four principles lift thrust
weight and drag and then you know the
science of
aviation is how you apply those
principles and that was a little bit
like us at some point through trial and
error
it’s those four ideas just started to
emerge
and then it was about all right how do
you apply them and
what does it actually look like for a
small team for an organization
in each interaction each client
experiment
it got a little better and a little
better and a little better and there
were a lot of mistakes along the way and
that’s where we got where we got 4 000
of those
so let’s take an example let’s say you
and i
are working at a company we want to
launch let’s say this new
product within our company and we have a
team meeting about it
people give their input about the
meeting it seems like everybody’s
rallied around it
and then the time comes where everybody
needs to do their jobs and it just
falls apart what happened there and what
should we be doing
yeah so good okay so like a thousand
things went through my brain all at once
a great example set up
so here’s the first thing i would tell
you the four disciplines of execution
is heavy medicine it’s not for
everything
so if you look at this and you say hey
this product’s gonna launch
no problem teams are on board we got
what we need
that’s not what you use this for it’s
funny in healthcare
they talk about four disciplines we do a
lot with hospitals and they they refer
to
four disciplines as taking an issue to
in the intensive care unit
but if you if you look at this and you
recognize a it’s really important
that this product launches we got a lot
riding on this this gonna you know this
can impact the direction of the
organization and b
i don’t think it’s gonna happen the way
it needs to happen
if we don’t do something real different
than what we normally do
all right you’d be surprised how often
those two ideas intersect
right it’s it’s got to happen and i
don’t think it’s gonna
like that’s when you know okay
that treatment first of all anything you
can buy like stroke of the pen or
mandate and you’re pretty confident it’s
going to happen just do that
right the check so the first the first
thing we’d have you think about
as far as okay now we got to actually do
something is to translate
the work into the form of a target
a finish line statement so is there some
is there something that represents
success for
this product launch is it just the
project itself is it just getting it out
and if so what’s the criteria for
success look like
or is there an actual tangible result
that we need to see new product revenue
above 15 by the end of next fiscal year
but whatever it is don’t begin work
on the assumption that we all know where
we’re going and so discipline one’s
called focus on the wildly important
and it’s it’s not only about narrowing
your focus
i think people get that part but it’s
also a little like the way a camera
focuses brings something into focus
and that’s what the idea of a target and
we’re very specific
that this target should have a starting
line a finish line and a deadline we are
going to go from seven percent
to 15 you know new product development
revenue by the end of the fiscal year
boom
well this sounds a lot to me like begin
with the end in mind habit two if we can
create where we’re going and what it
looks like when we get there
then now we know what the journey needs
to be is is am i getting the right idea
the stephen covey you met and i had
breakfast
last year and what we talked about was
the overlap between the four
the four disciplines and the first three
habits of the seven habits
and how the the four disciplines really
sort of became
a way for organizations to practice
habits one two and three so you see a
huge
overlap between principles i think
you’re absolutely spot on
and and there’s a little bit of a
science to it
because having a finish line is one
thing
but what if that and i’ll stay with your
example what if that product development
objective really required the
interaction of
half a dozen different teams marketing
and
and and you know product development and
quality assurance and
and inside sales and you know what if
there was a whole group of people
that had to do that getting the targets
and we’re gonna stress this way more in
the second edition
it’s in the first edition but getting
the targets as close to the work
as possible is really critical
the adage that we use is we borrowed
from nasa
in 1961 what are the fewest battles
necessary to win the war right what are
the right now what’s everything that’s
got to happen like any
anybody can make an exhaustive list but
can we get this idea this this this new
product revenue success down
to the fewest critical battles and maybe
those battles drop right into those sub
teams
or maybe they don’t maybe those battles
are still above the functional level
and once defined then the sub teams
start lining up to the battles for
instance in nasa the
the war you could say the or we call
them wildly important goals or wigs
right that target the the wig the big
wig was
man on the moon by the end of the decade
and return them safely home
the battles were navigation propulsion
and life support and they had starting
line finish line deadlines
on navigation you know propulsion we got
to get to 25 000 miles an hour
right and life support right we can
right now we’ve got to be able to keep a
human being alive in space for
x number of days okay then with the
battles defined
and leadership really going yeah that’s
it like if we can win those battles
like i think we can do this would you
say that
most of our issues are not necessarily
execution
issues but it’s the fact that we didn’t
clearly define those goals in the
beginning
wow let me say this a little bit
you know a little bit of semantics
wrapped up in that answer
around what you’d say is execution the
short answer would be yes
and i had a chance to look at a good
friend’s
ceo’s track record and he was asking me
for input
and he had basically put failures on the
left
side of a piece of paper and big wins on
the right
over 20-year tenure as a ceo and i
didn’t say it to him but something
jumped off the page
all the failures really were concepts
really compelling arguments for things
the organization ought to do
but they’d never been translated into
specific finish line targets
and all the ones all of his wins had it
was a really dramatic example
and i didn’t say anything to him because
i didn’t want to put some you know
try idea over this man’s life work but
yeah it’s a big deal it’s very difficult
to execute on a concept
there’s one other angle to this that
we’ve just in the last year
started to recognize and i don’t know
why we’re so late to the party
but when you take a big objective when
you translate things to a target
and then you break those targets down
you’re not
planning you might think you are but
it’s not the same
planning is when you start saying who’s
going to do what
we’re going to need one of these and
we’re going to need by this time and
we’re going to need one of those
and at first you might say well isn’t
that the same thing as a battle but
but not really for instance in a hotel
if the big goal
the big wig was guest satisfaction the
battles might include
moving you know moving a rival
experience
and moving problem resolution and moving
food and beverage quality right whereas
planning
right so you broke it down into those
three targets whereas if i was planning
i would say okay
we want to get the uh we want to get a
new lobby put in by this amount of time
i start telling you what to do i move to
the how
uh we want to get the front desk trained
and some new customer satisfaction
behavior
and and there are certain things that
lend themselves to just hey just put a
plan together and let’s just
do the plan but it’s such a default
and what we’re saying is hang on a
second
before you just start issuing a plan
for everybody’s marching orders what if
you broke the problem down
into sub problems into sub targets
and and our rule of thumb is if you can
get the bigwig
down into a series of sub wigs where
each team only owns one of these
you are in a very nice position to run
the four disciplines play
and to get some surprisingly good
results
so would you say if multiple teams
multiple departments
own the same goal or issue
that that is a formula for defeat
not exactly it’s okay that they might
all
own going to the moon or guest
satisfaction
or new product revenue at a high level
but if you leave it at a high level then
yes it is a formula
for failure because in the in the
absence of clarity
around what are we specifically going to
do what’s
our piece of that equation the day job
sucks everybody’s attention because the
day job always wins on the urgency scale
the day job
maintaining the operation has so much
built-in urgency
even if everybody’s in love with the new
goal it sucks the energy back into the
day job
and i love the word that you give to the
day to day
you call it the whirlwind and i have
adopted that word and when you say that
to people they just get it yes that’s
going to suck us in and we’re not going
to be able to focus on anything
external to that it requires very little
explanation
it’s like it’s like a really aggressive
virus if you just say that word at a
company meeting
like six months later the whole company
is using the term
when that thing that thing wants a word
it really does so let me ask you this
let’s let’s take the
the first discipline so we have focus
so now we have this this issue this
thing we’re trying to bring to market
how do we go about creating a clear
target
and how do we come up and above the
day-to-day whirlwind
yeah i think you know our rule has
really been
and sometimes sometimes they don’t know
like in your in your example you’re
assuming they know they’ve got to bring
the new product to bear
that’s kind of an easier one because you
can either put a starting line finish
line deadline
on the actual delivery of the product or
you can put it on
the results that will come once the
product is delivered like that’s not too
hard
and then once you have that you start
breaking it down to targets to the team
level
that’s not too bad the harder one is
when a team
feels like they got 20 things they
should be executing on
well let’s do this let’s say because i
love your example about nasa
and i took franklin covey’s project
management uh
program and that was the example that
they used and they started out with
kennedy speech that we will do this by
this date
so let’s use that let’s let’s restart
that with the example
and and how how would we apply the
disciplines
to getting a man on the moon
before the 60s ended love it okay
so let’s go right to the beginning so at
the beginning the goal was not put a man
on the moon by the end of the decade and
return him safely home the goal was
lead the world in space exploration so
it’s important to know that everything
really starts as a concept anyways
and then what nasa had done back then
which is very typical of what
organizations do today
is they built 15 metrics around
lead the world in space exploration and
what was going on right you had the cold
war
there you know countries were falling
left and right between democracy and
communism
and everybody was looking at the space
race as some arena
it was a bizarre wrinkle in human
history right
and kennedy did intuitively what we try
and teach leaders to do
which he just picked the finish line
like he just
made that up it’s kind of funny the back
story is he wanted to go to mars and
they said look relax
john the moon’s going to be cool right
and he he just he just picked a target
and that target probably didn’t
accomplish all
15 things and lead the world in space
exploration but you sit there and look
at it and go
hey we pull that off this thing’s over
and sometimes sometimes the right answer
doesn’t come from analysis sometimes it
comes from imagination
and so he draws this line in the sand
and accountability goes through the roof
right because you can hide behind 15
metrics
but man on the moon by the end of the
decade return safely there was nowhere
to hide
and then the other thing that happens
morale and engagement skyrocketed
so there’s a huge increase in
accountability and morale and engagement
skyrocket and
what we call that is game on like
you don’t always get that and sometimes
game on doesn’t happen
until you’re later into the process but
it’s not very subjective like you know
when somebody when a group’s gone
game on like we’re in like that’s kind
of that’s
really what started so that was the
first step the second then
then they start moving towards these
primary battles there were these
technological hurdles
that were standing in the way and it was
navigation propulsion and life support
and then the teams below the various
functions then start
lining up there might be five teams
pushing towards i mean there was no
department of navigation
i think that’s one of the mistakes we
make we want to instantly we start with
very vague goals
and then we let functions create vague
goals that sort of kind of align with
our
vague goal and that ain’t going to cut
it like okay
what are the sub targets from each
you know of the supporting teams that
are that are going to allow us to get
to 25 000 miles an hour and what’s
what’s that
look like like start to start to break
that achievement into the sub
achievements that’s what discipline
one’s about
and when you’re done with discipline one
you’re really
at the level where the work gets done
you can think of discipline one
as the connective tissue between a
strategic concept
and where work gets done well chris let
me ask you this how do you know when all
the work is
done in discipline one so you can move
on
yeah great question hard question
we would say that you’ve taken your
lagging measures as far
down into the organization as you can
and you’re now if you break them down
anymore
you’re now bumping into what we call a
lead measure
so you’re now at the level where
something can be
influenced directly like if i switch to
the hotel
if we go into engineering and
aeronautical structures and
we’re going to lose first of all i don’t
know it so let’s switch to a hotel
fair enough if we take if we take a
rival experience at a giant hotel
people make up their mind about a hotel
in the first 10 minutes you’ve got a
really hard time flipping them if
they’re not happy in the first 10
minutes
and they said this is one of our key
battles and they broke a rival
experience down
into another set of targets so they said
okay room availability like nothing
ticks people off more than they get in
in the afternoon and
there’s no room for them they’re waiting
on housekeeping
room availability’s got to be one of our
targets and average
check-in time has to be one of our
targets and luggage delivery
has to be one of our targets like if if
those targets can be owned by
just independent teams you you know you
take you know you’ve broken this piece
down
kind of to the natural level and then
the next set of measures
tend to be much more influenceable by
the team
and that’s really you’re very naturally
into discipline two and discipline two
says act on the lead
measure so the lead measure for luggage
delivery
might be you know we’re gonna we’re
gonna identify 100
of bags that come through that front
door
every time we got to figure out what bag
belongs to what guess we kill
everybody’s
luggage delivery time and we’re going to
we’re going to escort
50 of the guests to the room that’s our
other
so you’re down to the kind of stuff you
can actually do you can have direct
influence on and that actually that’s a
great segment
that’s the lead measure but the key to
the lead measure
for us four thousand app ads don’t
assign
lead measures to a team let the people
doing the work
pick their own bet let them let
them make the bet give them ideas give
them your best thinking give them a menu
but you know the great quality guru
edward deming said
hey the people that are within 12 feet
of the work those are the ones that
actually understand cause-and-effect
relationships
i love that i love that we’re talking
about lead and lag measures because i
think it’s
it’s just so easy for us to think about
lagging measures
most everything that becomes easy to
report on is a lagging measure
what is a technique to transition off of
that to really get what builds
that final result the lead measure yeah
so
if you in my mind the easiest way to do
this
is to think about a strategic bet
that’s very close to the front line like
i just said one let’s just stay with the
example i just gave
we’re betting that if we can identify
all the bags coming in and we walk
50 percent of the guests to the room now
there’s 12 other things that happen
we’ve got a work process but we’re going
to put disproportionate
energy on two activities
or two small controllable objectives
we’re betting that if we did those two
things we’re going to see a significant
drop in overall average luggage delivery
time
like that bet if you think of that bet
and i hope everybody’s okay with this if
you think of that bet as a game
think of the way that a human being gets
their head around a game
a whole different set of of like brain
fluid starts like people think oh that
won’t really work i mean we can do that
i think that happens anyways
like there’s all of this creative
thinking that goes into
will the lead move the lab and that’s
why you’ve got to let the team
play that’s why you’ve got to give them
a voice in this thing
if you pick their lead measures and they
don’t work they’ll just say hey boss it
didn’t work
but if they picked them and it doesn’t
work they’ll tweak them they’ll modify
them
and a lot of times the right answer at
this level has to go through a little
bit of a failure pattern
it’s got to go through some iterations
and so once that thing starts to feel
like a game
and there could be many games driving
one of these objectives
then the third discipline is
i gotta see that game like it’s gotta go
live and the third discipline is keep a
compelling scoreboard
like you know you got a game when you
can scoreboard it
like a game not like you know not like a
spreadsheet
more like what you see at an athletic
event now let’s see if we can we can
explain that to the scaling up nation a
little bit because you had some
great slides when i saw your
presentation a couple of months ago
when most people are thinking of a
scoreboard yeah i’ve got an excel
spreadsheet we look at that
but that’s not really what you’re
talking about here right
if you think about if you divide score
keeping into two categories
coaches scoreboards and player
scoreboards it gets a lot easier
like at the at half time at a basketball
game every coach gets handed
a report and on that report is how many
times did we
you know did we get our hands on the
other team well how many turnovers were
there
what’s our ratio of uh you know assists
to uh you know missed shots whatever and
and they need that data and leaders need
that kind of data
to make business decisions and that’s
not the kind of scoreboard we’re talking
about
what we’re talking about has a lead and
a lag
shots on goal goals like that stuff’s up
in front of
like the players can see that at all
times down in distance
score if someone is is
really bored with football as a whole
they probably i mean they might not like
football or they
more likely they don’t understand down
and distance
third and five second and two like
that’s that that’s the lead measure of
football is getting first downs the lag
is the score
and the networks know this like the
networks will show you that
can i visually see the bet you know
baseball right you know hits and runs
shots on hockey shots on goal go right
right there’s this there’s this sort of
lead
lag component that sort of sucks me into
the game what i’m doing what i’m getting
and so any way that that can be we’ve
got a bunch of little
twit tricks and twists we’ve got an app
that we use now
um we found that you know highly visible
to the players and for whatever reason
the most visible place in the universe
right now is a person’s phone
highly visible to the players is a big
part of it and then
here’s the other point i gotta be able
to look at it and within three seconds
know we’re winning or we’re losing and
you’d be surprised how many times you
can look at a lot of data
and go i still don’t know if we’re
winning or losing and so
simple highly visible winning or losing
that’s all of that goes into creating
this game
on mentality it doesn’t happen it
doesn’t always happen right away
but if they own the bet i mean here’s
how you know it’s working
you don’t have to wait for the results
all you have to do to know if
it’s working is just ask a team member
what the score is
because if they don’t know the score
they don’t care
you’re in the living room with someone
and you want to know if they’re into the
game or not just ask them what the score
is if they don’t know they’re not into
it
and they might be embarrassed about it
they might pretend they’re into it
they’re not into it
and what we say is start over
like figure it out um we’ve had
shocking results in if you if you let
them participate
if it feels important if it feels like a
high stakes game if people are watching
if there’s people in the stands that’s
all you have to do
do i buy the bet do i did i get a voice
in it do i think that it’s predictive
do i think it’s something i can
influence if it’s a winnable game
and it matters you get human nature
working for you
well let me ask as a leader you’re
trying to do all these things you’re
trying to put all of this together
with the team how do you know you’ve
gotten it right
so you can try to avoid a failure how do
you know that you’ve gotten everybody
involved they
are the right lead metrics they’re
getting the right buy-in so they can
report up to it and they feel good about
that how do you know all those things
i’m so glad you said this because i want
to take a step back
what we’re talking about folks is not
a new way to run your business eighty
percent of the work
that will hap please if you don’t hear
anything else hear this
eighty percent of the work that has to
happen in your teams and in your
organizations
should not change at all with the
adoption of this approach
if you think of it in three categories
if you put as a leader if you put
if you had three categories and one
category was everything you could do
because you’re the boss
we call it stroke of the pen boss stuff
i’m gonna buy this i’m gonna hire her
we’re going to outsource this we’re
going to change that so you got boss
stuff
stroke of the pen then you have another
category which is whirlwind or
in this context life support think kpis
it’s everything we do every day to
sustain the vital signs of the
institution right
keep the doors open and it’s
it’s your existing processes and a lot
of firefighting
just to keep you alive just those two
categories right there that’s gonna eat
eighty percent if you ask the people
they’re gonna say more like a hundred
percent
but it ain’t it’s 80. you get you can
you can steal from it
and then the third category is something
that requires us to do
something different like i as a leader i
cannot
get at this result with my checkbook i
can’t
it’s resistant to direct management
influence
i can’t push it i gotta pull it
and that’s where that that so you use
this as a treatment
and the reason i wanted to say this is i
wanted people contextually not to try
and put their whole operation in these
four disciplines you don’t need that
what you need to put in the four
disciplines is the key bottleneck
like what’s the thing you know if the
genie was only given out one wish
what’s the thing oh if i had this we
could do so many other things
that that is when this methodology
really works you know like for that you
know for that front-end team like it was
it was luggage delivery or it was room
availability you know
that for that group this is the one
thing that’s holding us back
we and we can we attack the bottleneck
so so
so knowing having that context first of
all
really helps leaders get this right you
try and eat your whole
operation with four disciplines you kill
it and then
it might not work right away like
sometimes the bet is something you know
will work we just have to focus on it
and do it and that’s a type
the other type feels more like trial and
error
and that’s really okay like we don’t
know
if if the lead measure of tagging all
the bags
identifying all the bags and walking
that we don’t know that that’s going to
reduce but we think we’re going to try
it
and they got to know you know what in
this little space in this little sandbox
it’s okay to be wrong as long as you’re
adapting and you’re trying something new
and so the spirit of this is and you
know it’s working if they’re engaged if
they’re working the problem
and that that takes us to the fourth
discipline and the fourth discipline is
if that team’s meeting every week and
every member of that team is saying all
right here’s the one or two things i’m
gonna do
this week you know what i’m gonna get
i’m gonna get us new tags
for all of those bags um marty’s new on
second shift in the morning
i’m gonna walk with marty for two hours
make sure he’s got this thing down
um you know i’m gonna oh second shift
mary has been killing it
i’m gonna i’m gonna acknowledge mary
with the rest of the team
and give her a gift certificate uh you
know
anything i can do to help the bet i’m
going to make every member of the team’s
going to make some commitment every week
to double down on the bet force
against leverage right if the lead
measures of the lever we’re gonna put
force against the leverage
and if you see this activity going on
it won’t be long they’re gonna you’re
gonna see that lag measure that wildly
important goal you’re gonna see that
move
the one close to the teams all right so
let me stop so
other questions about that well i’ve got
so many questions i don’t know where to
begin
i think the one that’s forefront in my
mind
is we’re learning through this entire
exercise we only know what we know
right now and as we go through it we’re
going to learn
new things about how we do things so how
do we
take those lessons and now apply those
so we’re making the plan
even better i think the first thing is
take a lot of pressure off yourself
right if you if you apply this approach
to just one thing per team
that lowers the pressure i i also like
thinking about how a human being learns
a board game
or a card game like nobody’s very good
the first
round and someone tries to explain the
rules to you
eventually you say just start i’ll jump
in
have you ever done that you’re like i i
hear you i’m sure you’re being very
clear
i got to see it in action absolutely
know exactly what you’re talking
about you know exactly what i mean and
sometimes once they see it in action
about a month into it they’ll go all
right
we know what to do with this it’s not
about
walking the guest to the room you know
it’s what it is
it’s about getting their profile right
or
you know and and they’ll change the bet
once they get
the game and so here’s what i say i
really like this idea i think this will
everyone’s blood pressure if you’re
trying to figure this out everyone’s
blood pressure will lower when i say
this
intent counts more
than technique not not in engineering
not in the sciences but with people it
totally does
and so here’s the idea if my intent
is just on two things i’ll get most of
the technique right
but if my intents wrong all the
technique in the world is not going to
help you
here’s the intent that we want leaders
to have when they do this
a winnable game that’s high stakes
where in that as you look at that team
or collection of teams
and not everybody has to be driving
towards the same big wig like
that’s a misconception people got from
our first edition we didn’t mean that
but how do you want to spend that
discretionary 20 of the energy
and can we get those teams focused on
something
that they can win at and it and it’s
also high stakes because it’s really
going to matter to one of our big
battles
we got to have that win and they feel
like they got to come through for us
like if you just did that and you threw
out the four disciplines
my guess is you do a lot of the stuff
we’re recommending
just on your own if all you were trying
to do was create
a high-stakes winnable game around
one part of that team’s function that’s
going to drive strategy
there’s no doubt about it we as water
treaters have our own
special language that language is
demonstrated in our new very
own line of water treatment specific
t-shirts and accessories
go to scalinguph2o.com forward slash
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to get yours today
you know when you look at the four
disciplines focus leverage engagement
accountability
it seems simple obviously it’s not with
all the things that that you’re you’re
letting us know about and all the things
that you’re
finding through your experience of 18
years
a question i have for you is what is the
most common
stumbling point when people are trying
to go through this
so how can we help people that are doing
this the first time
yeah i love that question and if i could
just add i know you love stephen r covey
and seven habits and i i heard covey say
once about the seven habits
that you could learn the seven habits in
a few minutes
and you could spend your lifetime trying
to master them
and i think that’s i think that’s really
been true for what we’ve seen of our
clients they’ve been able to put this
into place
really quickly and yet some of them
after 10 years
feel like we’re just getting good at
this so it’s got part of that flavor to
it
if i were to say stumbling blocks and
this is a huge topic of conversation for
us right now as we’re working on the
second edition of the book
people instantly resonate with like you
did
with lead and lag measures right and
they love the idea that we’re going to
put energy against the
predictive metric and we’re not just
going to spend all of our time looking
at lag measures
here’s the biggest mistake they don’t
break the lag measure down into small
enough lag measures
before switching to lead measures
probably our fault for not emphasizing
it enough in the first edition
in other words i don’t want to apply if
you think
wars b war wig and battle wigs you don’t
have to use military terms i
i mean it just works with the nasa story
but you know primary wig and sub wigs
and then team wigs
right if you fail to do that and by the
way this is the discipline discipline
one’s the one everybody wants to skip
because everybody goes oh we know what
our goals are so we know our lag
measures what are our lead measures
you’re already done there are it’s
already over here i can tell you eight
reasons why you’re gonna fail
right now you gotta go back to
discipline one you gotta say look most
metrics are gonna live in the whirlwind
those are kpis
and we’ve got processes we’re not going
to apply the the lead measure
treatment to those but on the ones we
are going to go after
we’re going to break those down into the
smallest achievable lag
measures at the team level before we
start applying lead measures
so we’re not putting a lever against a
gigantic boulder
we’re putting it against right a smaller
boulder a manageable boulder
that still is meaningful so i hope that
i know i’m talking in metaphors
and i really apologize but i hope that
makes sense because that that is
definitely public enemy number one for
applying this methodology
let’s just go back to the hotel example
um and by the way sorry for the hotel
thing but we’ve
just found that hotels are like the
rosetta stone of case studies like
you don’t need any backstory everybody
knows how they work so if the big
big boulder was guest satisfaction i got
a break in a big opera in a small hotel
i just have to
i might just break that down to arrival
experience and food and beverage quality
and i’m done and room cleanliness but in
a big hotel
i got to break that down into a rival
experience which now encompasses five
teams and um food and beverage quality
which encompasses 14 restaurants
and problem resolution which gets all
your other
support organizations right and so to
move that boulder i got to break it down
another whole level
and so now we’re down to the front desk
team you know trying to get rooms
available
and the bellman they’re trying to reduce
luggage delivery time like it always
breaks down to these little operational
milestones
and if i don’t do the discipline of
breaking it down
and you just said you know hey trace
what’s your lag measure and you said
uh guest satisfaction boss i’m like
right on that’s what we want everybody
to know
which is so difficult right right and
then i said what’s your lead measure
like that sounds like an intelligent
question
but there’s no lead measure for you
trace that moves
guest satisfaction for a hotel that has
1800 rooms like it doesn’t exist
that that boulder’s bigger than a house
there’s no lever you’re going to use
we got to get you to where you can see
that your lever is going to move a piece
of that rock that scaling the process
and not applying it to everything is the
best way to get traction with this
methodology
discipline 4 is accountability and i
know when you say you’re going to hold
somebody accountable that has a sting
that has a negative connotation
how do we take accountability and make
it a positive thing because we have to
have it or we’re not going to get where
we need to be
you’re asking my favorite question
around discipline four
accountability absolutely has a bad rep
because we
apply it to a bunch of stuff that
probably where it doesn’t belong
the short answer is we pull instead of
push
so instead of me and you know part of
the day job part of what we do every day
i may have to be telling people what to
do
in various ways and assigning people to
do stuff and planning and doing all that
all that’s got to go on
but in this one little space in the
intensive care unit of 4dx
i’m not going to tell i’m going to ask
trace in addition to everything that
you’re doing this week which i know is
massive
what’s the one or two commitments you
could make that would have the biggest
impact on this scoreboard this week and
you report you know and next week
when you report you say not against
stuff you told me to do chris
again stuff i said i would do as a
different kind of accountability that’s
the first part
second part is if the team owns the goal
not just the leader and if the team came
up with the lead measures
and if your other team members are kind
of bought into what this is
you will not miss a commitment like peer
accountability
has a profound effect on behavior like
we were shocked
at how much stronger peer accountability
is than boss accountability
and then here’s the final one as a boss
you have got to see in my eyes that i
care about this
if somebody misses a commitment i don’t
ever want to be rude i don’t ever want
to be mean i don’t ever want to be
degrading
there could be great reasons that
somebody missed a commitment
but we’re going to talk about it super
nice hey
trace if you get yourself in a situation
like that where you know you’re going to
miss one of your commitments
would you call me and i’ll help like
that’s so nice
but everybody’s getting the message okay
this stuff matters to chris
like if we say something we got to do it
like i can be so
nice good leadership good parenting
has love but it also has high
expectations
and what we found was based on how you
set that it will either feel like a high
stakes game
or a low stakes game nobody likes low
stakes games nobody likes preseason
football
even that i’m a die-hard football fan i
can’t wait for baseball to be over for
football to start like and then i watch
my first preseason game in five minutes
in italy i can’t watch this
because it doesn’t matter nobody likes a
low stakes game
so that’s all of those things contribute
to forming a healthy type of
accountability
chris we have done just a fantastic job
i think of
letting the nation know what the four
disciplines are
and i hope everybody out there listening
whether they own a business whether they
run a territory they’re responsible for
any other person in their organization
they’re thinking of
so many ways that they can use this but
i’m curious you’ve mentioned
several times that you are coming out
with an
updated book of the four disciplines of
execution
what are some of the new items that we
can look for in there
yeah thank you um you know when we
launched four disciplines it was like a
giant sonic ping
that we sent out into the universe based
on 10 years of work
and then as the ping came back we were
surprised by
first of all the biggest thing we were
surprised at is that people don’t read
this book like a normal business book
most normal business books you read them
and you shelve them and we
absolutely thought that 95 of the people
were going to do that and 5
were going to apply it and that wasn’t
that’s not what’s happened
what’s happened is like what you did
like you like maybe more than half
maybe two-thirds try to do it and so
that’s just changed like to just to know
that
has changed certain things like like in
the book the three sections of the book
the book starts off
really focused at the front team leader
level
but leaders of leaders the rules change
a little bit and
we don’t get into that stuff until the
end and we’re going to be letting the
front level leaders know up front
we’ve put enormous work into an app so
very early in the book
you’re going to have a place you can go
to watch a video or to build an online
scoreboard
right and there’s just certain things we
can do in an app that lends itself to
someone
who’s trying to do more than read it
they’re trying to do it so the first
thing is
really helping organizational leaders
with the methodology
number two is getting this app available
very early
for free like it comes with the book
right getting people into
some other mediums for building this out
that
we think will help and then the final
thing is we get to work with some really
amazing leaders and
you start to see some profound
leadership insights
when you’re really trying to execute on
something hard
and this work has been a really nice way
to observe some some pretty significant
leadership
insights from watching some some great
leaders and some great organizations
struggle with this topic and so there’s
a lot of
there’s a lot of leadership i think in
the second edition
compared to the first edition we have a
lot of listeners of this podcast that
don’t necessarily own their own company
but they can see
where this can really help their
companies what advice do you give to
them where they can go to their owners
and say you know i just learned about
this new concept i think it can really
help us
do what we’re trying to do how do they
have that conversation
yeah you don’t have to be the owner of
the organization to do this if you’ve
got
what we usually say is if you’re a
leader with multiple functions or
multiple teams below you
that report to you you’re in a great
spot to start this
if you work for a leader that’s in that
position
that leaders in a great right you might
be part of that leader’s team
and there’s usually two ways that this
starts well you know i’m going to say
three one way is just they roll up their
sleeves and they just dive in
they do the best they can and and that’s
that’s we know there’s a lot of people
doing that
some groups will engage franklin covey
and
anyone from from our practice will come
out
for like you know up to two hours like
on our nickel just to meet with a
leadership team
and knock these ideas around ironically
that’s our lead measure
like how many executive teams are we
just talking to about this stuff like
good things happen
if we do that right it’s a great lead
measure for us so
you know one take advantage of that um
that’s a great way to get
to get a leadership team to go is this
this a fit here
could we it’s always pilots could we
pilot this on something that’s a great
way to get it started
so that’s that’s the second way the
third way is
just recently we’ve started doing public
sessions
it’s usually a university that will host
us like we’ve got coming up we’ve got
atlanta indianapolis
san antonio kansas city tulsa
and this is one that i do where we’ll
have about 20 tables
and each table is a different leadership
group plant management group a
small company right a division
leadership of a bigger company
and we have 20 tables of leadership
teams in a room and we just take them as
far as we can take them in one day
and it’s a it’s kind of an execution
master class
and so we’re teaching stuff we’re
showing case studies they’re working at
their tables
and there’s a couple of us that are kind
of bouncing between the tables and we
just try and get everybody in the room
as far down the process as we can in one
day
over 18 years i know you’ve shared this
with so many organizations i’m curious
what is your most spectacular success
wow now this is this is something that
gets talked about
marriott’s got the longest run the
number two leader at marriott dave
grissom
banked you know an enormous amount of
energy 11 years ago on this methodology
and has improved marriott guest
satisfaction every single year not the
franchise side
half of the marriotts are are managed by
marriott the other half of franchise
just
on the managed side um he has continued
to move
a really key target for 11 years
that’s that’s a that’s a big one but
it’s it’s
i’ll tell you the one that means the
most to me was actually uh
in the public sector bj walker who we
feature in the book
she used this methodology to go after
repeat cases of child abuse and she
reduced
the number of repeat cases nothing is
almost nothing anybody can do about
initial cases
but it shouldn’t happen again she
reduced repeat cases of child abuse by
60 percent across the entire state of
georgia
and she’s one of these leaders she’s
she’s done great stuff in illinois since
georgia
she’s now in florida and she just goes
after
she this is the methodology she uses and
she just goes after big
big issues with this approach and so
yeah i’d have to say that’s my
that’s my favorite one to be associated
with
that’s huge well now let’s say somebody
just joined the podcast
right here at this very moment what’s
the one thing
you want to make sure everybody gets out
of this conversation
sometimes the most strategic thing to go
after
isn’t your big number it’s not ebitda
it’s not
you know revenue it’s that smaller
really key strategic objective right can
we get our first year
business developers to pay for
themselves can we reduce
client turnover don’t be afraid
to put disproportionate amounts of
energy
against very tactical winds well chris
i’ve had a lot of fun with this i
actually want to have you back and talk
about some other topics maybe
getting everybody organized and some
things like that but before
we do that i do have some lightning
round questions for you now the point
values are
doubles so so are you ready
high stakes game brother here we go so
you now have the ability to go back in
time
and talk with your former self on the
first day
when your book was released what advice
would you give yourself
keep the focus small kind of that topic
i was just telling you about
um don’t lead people towards going too
big too early
it’s more important it’s more important
to start getting wins
what are the last few books that you’ve
read um
i went back and read built to last which
was collins
jim collins’s first book and
um i i just i just absolutely love it uh
before that if if anybody’s read
uh the lean startup by eric reese it’s a
i think it’s a horribly named book and
it’s a brilliant book
around trial and error on kind of on the
the front end
of a product launch is excellent
and then um on the fiction side um my
my kids have me into this book called
the way of the kings
which is just blowing my mind so when my
brain cannot handle any more
execution i got a great i gotta that’s a
great book that i’m into right now
that’s a fun question so hollywood
listens to scaling up h2o all the time
so
they’re they’re gonna figure out that
they need to make a movie
about chris mcchesney so when they do
that
who plays you oh uh jeff goldblum
that was easy i love it
yeah you know what yeah slightly younger
jeff goldblum maybe like
from the big chill like that’s the first
time i knew
okay not not not from whatever the
commercials are that he’s doing now
i when i watched the big chill as a
teenager i knew i had a celebrity
doppelganger and it wasn’t flattering at
all by the way
that’s awesome all right one final
question
you now have the ability to speak with
anyone throughout history who would it
be with
and why oh brilliant question my brain
is just
locked up oh i was thinking about
something like this i was telling you
about that podcast hardcore history
um i think a founding father
like maybe madison and really
understood really try and understand how
much they
really knew and how much maybe they just
got lucky
but like the method behind the madness
like like
did they did they really have all the
insights that we give them
credit for it would be fascinating to me
and would love to show one of those
founding fathers
what this nation actually turned into
well it would be would be
fantastic chris this has been fantastic
as i mentioned before we’re definitely
going to get you to come back you are
a wealth of knowledge and i want you to
pour all that knowledge all over the
scaling up nation
but i sincerely want to thank you for
coming on scaling up h2o
it’s absolutely been been my honor and
and and you you’ve been asking great
hard great questions nation i know i
learned a lot today
i’m sure you learned a lot today and i
know
many of you are thinking i want to read
this book but you’re driving
so don’t take any notes we have all this
written down for you
in the show notes page in fact if you go
to scalinguph2o.com
forward slash 4dx
that’s the number four d is in dog x is
an x-ray
it will send you straight to an
affiliate link on amazon
so you can get this book if you’re
driving and you’re worried about
forgetting that don’t worry about it you
can go straight to the show notes page
and you can click on the link and i
know you’re gonna want to read this book
it is a helpful book
it takes planning to a new dimension it
takes planning through execution
so we can actually get things done
i’m always impressed when people can
take a large
concept idea and break it down
into a manageable bite-size piece
or pieces so we can work on that concept
and that is exactly what chris
did with this book the four disciplines
of execution once again
are focus leverage engagement
and accountability and if you’re a
business owner i know you can
immediately see a path using these four
disciplines however if you work for a
company
maybe it’s not so easy so i want to
break that down for you let’s take a
common goal that many of us have
that we want to lose weight let’s
actually take those
through the four disciplines so the
first discipline
focus first off don’t say
i want to lose 10 pounds
phrase it in the positive by
x date i will be 10 pounds lighter
and the benefit is i will be able to
walk upstairs without getting winded
see the difference with that as just
i want to lose 10 pounds the brain will
only engage with positive statements
there’s a whole psychology on that
but for now just know that positive
statements will help you achieve that
goal
adding the goal result helps us
even more so i’m not winded going
upstairs we can visualize that we can
engage
our imagination and that helps our brain
make us more able to achieve
that goal and we can engage all of those
things within the brain
it allows us to more easily achieve
what we want to achieve now the second
discipline is leverage obviously
we have certain habits that got us 10
pounds overweight
if we do not acknowledge that we’re not
going to be able to achieve
that goal so we have to ask ourselves
what are some of the things that we have
to overcome
for example when is the best time for us
to work out
if the answer is at night we don’t want
to schedule our workout during the
morning
if we know we can’t get out of bed
to do it don’t set yourself up for
failure by scheduling an activity
you need to do to achieve your goal at a
bad time you know yourself better than
anybody else
so when is the best time to set you
up for success now let’s talk a little
bit about eating so exercise and eating
those are the secret formula for those
of you that don’t know about losing
weight
i know i tend to forget that from time
to time
i know i eat better when i pre-prepare
my meals the night before otherwise
i’m out going from account to account
talking with people making phone calls
and now i’ve got to make a quick
decision
on how do i satisfy the fact that i am
hungry and normally those quick
on-demand
decisions are not great decisions
we pull through a drive-through
somewhere and that’s probably
why we are overweight and the reason
i didn’t take something in the morning
is because
i rush out the door in the morning
that’s just something i do
i like to get to the office early and i
can grab something out of the
refrigerator
if it’s pre-prepared but if i wait to
make it in the morning
nine times out of ten i’ll convince
myself i don’t have time and i
won’t do it and i’ll come to the office
and i don’t have
my lunch and that’s where the bad
decisions are made
so if we want to be successful in this
case
i’ll make my meal tonight so i will have
it for
tomorrow we have to envision all these
pitfalls
and if we can see them we can avoid them
before they
actually happen so let’s go to the third
discipline that is engagement and for
some reason
and this kind of goes into the fourth
one as well
but it is so easy for us to break
our own commitments to ourselves it’s
far
harder for us to break a commitment with
someone else
so let’s take advantage with that let’s
tell as many
people as we can that are close to us
what our goal is what we’re doing to
try to achieve that goal and invite them
to help us
keep responsible with that goal maybe we
can even find some people that we can
work
out with together to continue
that engagement so and that leads
straight
into the fourth discipline which is
accountability
and that’s why it’s easier for us to let
ourselves down
and harder for us to let somebody
else down we don’t want others to think
badly of us we can use that
for our advantage there’s scripture that
talks about
bringing issues out into the light
because then it doesn’t have power
over us and then we can have others
help us with that issue by others
holding
us accountable we will naturally take
the commitment more seriously so maybe
the person we’re working out with
is our accountability partner and we
report to each other
what we ate the day before what pitfalls
we’re finding how we’re trying to
overcome them we’re logging our workouts
together we’re encouraging
each other to the next level through
our workouts folks it’s so much more
fun when we’re doing something with
other people and probably the most fun
is when we achieve the goals
we can celebrate with each other
the achieving of all the hard work that
had to be done in order to achieve
that goal so i hope you see if you
really
want to get things done if you really
want to make a
change focus leverage engagement
and accountability this is what we do
each and every week in the rising tide
mastermind it works folks it’s baked
right in to our format of
the mastermind and we’re all holding
each other accountable
we’re all celebrating each other’s wins
we’re all making sure that the goals
that we are working on
are the goals we should be working on
based on all the other circumstances
that are taking place
in all of our lives so i hope
you have a person a group of people
that you can have conversations like
this
with if you don’t you are more than
welcome
to go on scaling up h2o.com
forward slash mastermind to see if the
rising tide mastermind
is the right group for you if it’s not
that’s okay but folks as you’ve heard me
say dozens of times
life is not made to do it alone
and when you do it with people that
understand the issues
that you have that is a group that can
better
help you so i really hope you enjoyed
today’s episode
i hope you can see where the four
disciplines
focus leverage engagement and
accountability
will help you achieve the goal that you
are trying to achieve
remember don’t just plan it
execute it tune in next week for another
brand new episode of scaling up
h2o in the meantime stay safe
out there and i will see you next week
[Music]
folks
i get asked all the time what are some
of the reasons that people join
the rising tide mastermind well here
is jill cavano of scranton associates
to tell you about why she joined why did
i join the rising tide mastermind
i’ve already told trace this but when he
gave me a call
and told me about the opportunity i
wasn’t quite sure that this was
something i wanted to take advantage of
i wasn’t sure i was going to get my
money’s worth out of it and i wasn’t
sure that i had the time to devote to it
i actually give the credit for me
joining to my accountant
my accountant said you know i think this
is an excellent idea
you know you only have to gain you have
nothing to lose
um and i couldn’t agree more i am so
glad that i joined the rising tide
mastermind
trace said you know you know there’s no
minimum he said give it six months
um to really see you know if it’s for
you and i knew after the first month or
two
our group really gelled right away you
know it was so nice
being a small business owner can be very
isolating
i’ve gotten so much out of this i’ve
gotten networking
friendships i don’t feel so isolated
i’ve gotten a lot of knowledge and
personal growth
we’ve read some excellent books that
i’ve been able to apply
for my business so i’m so glad that i
joined
and i guess i have to thank my
accountant for doing it it’s given me
more
than i thought that it would jill
there’s no doubt about it you have a
great accountant i’m so glad you joined
you are such a great member of the
rising tide
north star group and folks we have many
groups within the rising tide mastermind
and all of the people that are within
the group is what
makes the groups great i know if you
haven’t experienced a mastermind group
it’s hard to comprehend
all the benefits that you get from it so
i urge you to go to scaling up h2o.com
forward slash mastermind to read up
on the rising tide mastermind and if
this sounds like a group that’s right
for you
schedule a call with me by clicking
the apply button and we can talk all
about it
the rising tide mastermind might be the
key
to get you to the next level