83 Transcript

083 The One About Water Management Plans


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welcome to Scaling UP! h2o the podcast
for water treater by water treaters

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where we’re Scaling UP! on knowledge so
we don’t Scaling UP! our systems hi

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everybody
tres Blackmore here your host for

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0:27.5

Scaling UP! h2o and folks there is no
doubt about it if you are a water

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0:34.3

treated a you are familiar with the word
Legionella and by the way if you are a

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0:41.4

water treated a and you have never heard
about Legionella you need to learn about

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Legionella now so many of our customers
are just as confused as some of our

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0:57.2

water treatment partners are it’s no
wonder to see why this is such a topic

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1:03.7

that people are so mixed up on so what
I’m hoping to do today is dispel some of

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1:10.0

the myths around water management
programs and of course that deals with

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1:16.0

how we are going to protect the
population with Legionella now one of

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1:21.6

the biggest myths is I’m paying for a
water treatment program so that means it

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1:27.9

automatically includes a Legionella due
diligent program or a water management

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1:36.3

plan folks that is not the case the game
has been changed with how we do water

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1:43.0

treatment and now in addition to keeping
the system clean free from corrosion

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1:49.7

scaling general microbial control and
then dirt and debris we are now adding

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1:57.1

this fifth leg to it which is Legionella
in Legionella prevention in order to do

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2:01.4

that we have to have a conversation with
our customer and we need to let them

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know that this is up and above a regular
water treatment program and there are

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certain standards out there that our
customer needs to know about and for

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them just to put that back on us isn’t
going to fulfill those standards

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so folks here is what we are going to do
today

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2:31.2

Legionella expert Matt for eg of HC info
is coming on and he’s going to talk

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about building a water management
program I am sure that this is an

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2:41.4

episode that you will listen to multiple
times because there’s going to be some

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great information on it so let’s go
ahead and get started so everybody

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welcome Matt for reaching my lab partner
today is Matt for eg of HC info Matt’s

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so excited to have you on Scaling UP!
today how are you good thanks glad to be

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here well Matt we are going to be
talking about the wonderful world of

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3:09.6

Legionella I can’t think of another
topic that I get more questions on this

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show about so I know listeners cannot
wait to get to the meat of this subject

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matter but before we do that I was
hoping you would introduce yourself a

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3:24.0

bit to the Scaling UP! nation I wouldn’t
CL have lived here for about two years

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3:30.2

after moving from San Diego and growing
up in the Midwest and my career has

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focused on Legionella specifically at
least since about 1995 I’ve done

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3:42.2

consulting and written and spoken on the
topic and so I talk about it a lot and

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I’m ready to do that today all right
well we are not going to disappoint

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because we’re going to talk a lot about
Legionella before we get into topics

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3:56.7

like ashtrays 188 I thought we could we
could start from the very beginning what

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4:02.1

exactly is Legionella why is the water
treatment communities so concerned about

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it how does somebody get Legionella
let’s just start there

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okay well Legionella is a type of
bacteria it can grow naturally in water

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but it is a problem especially in
manmade water systems like plumbing

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systems and equipment in general so
people can can get sick from it when

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4:26.3

they inhale it or if it gets aspirated
into their lungs like choked into their

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4:30.9

lungs doesn’t it’s not a problem just
going into the stomach but when it gets

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4:34.5

into the lungs that can cause
generis disease is the most common

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illness of the most serious illness that
it causes and so because it’s a building

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water issue as opposed to more of a
public order supply or a natural water

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problem then that’s why it is so
important to to water treaters and

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4:56.5

really anybody who’s involved in
managing buildings it can be contracted

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5:03.3

by using a sink by using a faucet
washing your hands walking by a cooling

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5:08.4

tower or a decorative fountain certainly
using a real pool spa but even if you’re

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5:13.0

in the vicinity of a whirlpool spa you
can contract of Legionella infection

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5:17.1

from the water in fact I got an email or
website inquiry or there’s some kind of

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5:22.1

a message from somebody just this week
who contracted a case of Legionnaires

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disease last year and she’s just certain
she got it from a whirlpool spa to

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hotels she but she said she wasn’t in
she was just sitting by it for about 30

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minutes and she said can I get it just
by sitting by and I said yeah I mean

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cases have been associated even with
just walking through an exhibit hall

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that had a whirlpool spa on display a
number of people over 200 in fact a few

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years ago and the Netherlands contracted
Legionnaires disease that way from a

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5:55.2

whirlpool spa well you mentioned so many
devices you mentioned the the spa you

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mentioned the domestic water all the
water systems within the building why

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6:07.3

does the cooling tower get so much
attention outbreaks years ago were

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blamed almost exclusively on cooling
towers it goes back to the to the

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outbreak that led to the discovery of
Legionnaires disease in 1976 which

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although the investigation didn’t
absolutely confirm the source it was

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believed to be the cooling tower at the
hotel in Philadelphia so ever since then

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there was a lot of focus on cooling
towers even though it’s been since the

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6:36.2

1980s mid 1980s that plumbing systems
were found to be associated with

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Legionnaires disease and and now data is
pretty clear that plumbing systems are

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domestic water systems are the primary
source in terms of number of

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but cooling towers get a lot of
attention because they are typically

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associated with the larger outbreaks
that make the news and that’s part of it

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and part of it is just misinformation
it’s it’s there’s not the awareness that

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other types of water systems especially
plumbing systems and whirlpool spas are

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equally if not more of a concern that
cooling towers in 2015 ASHRAE came out

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7:22.1

with their document 188 that told the
world how to or that they needed a water

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management plan I was hoping we could
talk a little bit around ASHRAE 188 and

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what a water management plan is okay
well a water management plan at least

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the type that is outlined in ASHRAE 188
which is also basically the same type

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that is described by the World Health
Organization in its 2007 documentary

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South administration and its 2014
document yes it’s basically a plan for

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how you are going to manage water
systems in a building to minimize risk

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in this case minimize the risk of
Legionella so it has or should have

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maintenance and operation procedures
which are usually referred to as control

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measures the framework outlined in
ASHRAE 188 also calls for a description

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of the water systems including flow
diagrams and then ways of determining

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whether the control measures are
implemented properly monitoring them

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having limits and and corrective actions
if those performance limits are not met

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so basically Ashbury 188 says large
buildings that gives some criteria for

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8:37.1

which one should and should happen but
basically large buildings should have a

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water management program to minimize the
risk of Legionella and it gives a

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framework with essential elements that
those plants should have well I think

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that covers the baseline of Legionella
ASHRAE 188 and and I just want to make

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sure that the entire audience is brought
into the conversation but

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I got to tell you if you’re a water
treat are out there and you have not

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heard of these things maybe you should
consider retail I can’t imagine you know

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not not knowing about these items so I
think the whole audience is with us now

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we went out we spoke to a customer or a
customer spoke with us and they said you

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know we’ve heard about these items
you’re the water treatment professional

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we want to engage you your company your
services and we want you to help guide

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us through what we need to do to get a
water management plan now what do we do

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well the most important part of a water
management plan are the control measures

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the the procedures whether they’re
maintenance or operation or having to do

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with design and construction to minimize
the risk of disease these other

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components that are outlined in ASHRAE
188 like the flow diagrams and a

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description of the system those are
important elements but they don’t

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prevent disease what prevents disease
what reduces risk are those procedures

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so the first question that the water
treatment company or person or whatever

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type of professional would need to
consider is are they able to come up

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with those control measures so you can
survey a site and gather information on

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the water systems but if you don’t know
what to tell the owner to do about those

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water systems the plan you provide will
be inadequate so I think that’s the

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first thing to consider is what role
does the company want to play in water

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management programs is it just to go out
and survey the site is it actually to

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write the plans do you need to partner
with another company what training do

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you need but if you want me to answer
the question on the assumption of the

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that the water treater already has that
expertise I can do that but I just

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wanted to make that clarification no I
think that’s a great point and as you

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were speaking I thought it would be
interesting if we acknowledged how many

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people out there really think that
they’re doing something for Legionella I

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don’t know if they think they’re
following the the guidelines or the

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spirit of ASHRAE 188 or because
haven’t read it but there’s so many

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people out there that will test
Legionella once a year and then they’re

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hoping that at zero and then that’s all
that they do do you see that as much as

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I do around our area here I hear about
that yes it’s it’s misunderstanding of

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of some sort and this this have kurz
with a lot of hospitals I hear where

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they will test for Legionella thinking
that’s a plan but testing for Legionella

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although it can be a good thing that’s
not a water management program that’s

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actually just the validation piece of
water management program so that the

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program or the the plan itself are the
maintenance procedures what you’re going

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to do to the water to minimize risk
testing for Legionella is just a way to

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validate whether those procedures you
are implementing are being effective or

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12:06.1

not so it’s not a plan at all simply to
test and really have no overall plan for

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minimizing risk or even for responding
to the results and then there are there

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are some facilities that will draft a
couple of pages of fake policies like

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minimize stagnation or keep temperatures
at a certain level something like that

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that’s not specific and they think
that’s their plan but what’s happening

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now because of the the Centers for
Medicare and Medicaid Services

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requirement is that now these hospitals
and nursing homes are being inspected

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and they’re being cited for having
inadequate plans so I mean a lot of

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these problems are occurring but I
believe things are heading in the right

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direction so some of these facilities do
not have adequate plans even though they

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12:55.5

might think they do but they’re finding
out they don’t I think things are at

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12:58.8

least heading in the right direction in
that respect well that’s good to hear

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13:04.6

you asked a question earlier I think we
should proceed as if the people in the

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13:09.4

Scaling UP! nation have received some
sort of training and then we can move

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13:14.5

forward there but before we get there if
somebody hasn’t how could they receive

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13:20.1

such a training well I mean the way my
company works we have

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we have online training courses that
that well I’m a number of subjects

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13:30.4

related to Legionella but specifically
on how to conduct a site survey what to

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look for it comes with a checklist what
to write down what to photograph and how

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to do flow diagrams so that’s on the
survey part of it we actually don’t do

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training on how to write water Manor
plans instead we write them we provide

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the software for that and then companies
that do those surveys partner with us

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and use our software so they don’t have
to come up with those control measures

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very few companies I know of actually
try to write their own plans try to come

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up with those maintenance procedures but
we provide that component and then they

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they can get the training to go out and
learn how to do the site surveys with a

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14:14.1

checklist at all
sampling is another part of it if if a

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company is going to do sampling they
should have training for that it might

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seem simple to fill a bottle with water
but there are a lot of really important

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details especially with plumbing systems
how many samples where do you collect

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do you collect hot versus cold which
types of equipment should you sample the

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pre flush purses post flush and those
kinds of details even recording data and

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14:41.2

especially on interpreting results so
it’s just very important to do those

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service as well
absolutely well Matt I think this is the

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biggest question that plague us water
treatment folk you know we we know we

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14:55.9

know enough to be dangerous about
Legionella some know more than others

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15:01.8

we’re able to talk to the customer but
now they want us to actually start the

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15:08.2

process for the plan and now it’s time
to survey what exactly is in that

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15:13.7

building and I think that’s where the
issue is most people don’t know how to

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15:19.3

properly survey and they don’t know what
to look for can we talk about that sure

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15:24.1

not everybody does it the same way and
I’m not saying there’s one way everybody

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15:28.3

should do it but I can talk a little bit
about how I do and then how the

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15:32.4

companies that partner with us do it
basically

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15:38.1

the surveys for a water management
program are different than a risk

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15:43.3

assessment sometimes those terms gets
interchanged but they’re different terms

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15:49.6

so if you are doing an assessment to
determine what problems are there and

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15:55.2

what is what conditions are there on
this property that are increasing the

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15:59.9

risk of it you know it takes more
training it takes more expertise to do

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16:05.0

that especially with plumbing systems
but if you’re if you have a good water

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16:10.8

management plan templates to use that
has all those control measures then

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16:15.2

really your job for the in doing the
survey is to identify the water systems

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and I’m not saying that’s easy but it is
a lot easier than identifying problems

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it’s basically taking an inventory so so
when you would get to the site typically

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16:29.3

what I think is best to do to begin with
is simply to talk with the facilities

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16:35.1

people maybe look at some drawings not
individual four by floor plans but maybe

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16:38.6

a site drawing that shows where does the
water come in from the street because

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16:44.0

basically you want to trace the water
from where it is coming in from the

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16:48.4

street of the taps to the points of use
you don’t need to look at all the points

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16:54.1

of use but you need to identify the key
points where it taps in at the street

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16:58.7

where it enters the building where the
water heaters are some basic information

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17:03.5

about the water heaters the type of
water heater the size the number of them

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17:09.6

if there are redundant ones in a given
system and any key components like

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17:13.1

central filters not too many buildings
have those like a filter for the

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17:17.3

incoming water but if they do you would
need to identify those softeners so

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17:22.6

that’s just the plumbing system you
would want to identify master mixing

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17:30.2

valves like the large system type
thermostatic mixing valves the hot water

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17:34.3

return or not and how many pumps those
are the types of things in a plumbing

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17:38.3

system of course cooling towers and key
components of those cooling towers

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17:43.8

decorative fountains but with respect to
ASHRAE want to eat it’s not just about

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17:48.9

identifying water systems that
can be the source of Legionella

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17:53.7

infections it’s about identifying all
the water systems so you also need to

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17:59.1

identify irrigation systems fire
protection really every kind of water

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18:05.8

system on a campus then you would draft
flow diagrams showing how those relate

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18:10.2

to one another where the water comes in
how it flows from one system to another

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18:14.0

very basic diagrams but they’re
important to get an overall

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18:20.9

understanding of the flow of water
through that site that’s really the the

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18:25.0

biggest part of the survey the then
after that it’s a matter of doing the

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18:28.7

plan which would include the hazard
analysis you have all of these water

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18:33.8

systems that you have identified and the
hazard analysis is really the risk

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18:38.2

assessment part of it and you’re not
you’re not looking at these systems to

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18:42.9

determine well does this have a problem
with it is it designed incorrectly you

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18:47.6

don’t need to do that in fact it’s a
very important thing to understand you

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18:50.7

don’t need to do otherwise you’re going
to go beyond the scope you really should

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18:58.8

so you really are identifying the types
of systems that can be well really if

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19:03.9

you’re if it’s a Legionella plan it’s
the type of system that can Harbor and

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19:10.3

transmit regional so if it can do both
then it needs to be a control measure

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19:14.2

you need to have control or control
location I should say you need to have

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19:19.5

control measures for it so for example a
plumbing system is always going to be a

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19:23.4

control location in my opinion some
might say well if it doesn’t have this

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19:25.4

or if it doesn’t have that it doesn’t
need to be

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19:29.5

but plumbing systems are inherently
prone to Legionella growth and

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19:34.0

transmission to people they need to be
managed and I can give some examples of

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19:39.0

that but but basically that’s cooling
towers do decorative fountains whirlpool

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19:43.8

spas but not a fire protection system a
fire protection system can harbor

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19:49.1

Legionella but transmission is very
unlikely it could occur for people who

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19:52.2

are testing the system of course it
could occur if there if there was a fire

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19:58.6

but it’s not a control location because
it’s really unlikely to be a source of

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20:02.2

trench
transmission so that’s kind of the broad

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20:07.1

brush or the overview of identifying all
the systems then identifying which ones

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20:12.0

are control locations and then that’s
when it comes time due to write a plan

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20:16.3

so you have to you have to come up with
a plan for for the control measures for

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20:21.5

all those systems that are control
locations man I think what every water

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20:27.5

treater worries about is oh my gosh what
if I missed a system what if it wasn’t

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20:32.0

on the drawing what if it was behind a
wall that I didn’t look behind are there

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20:38.6

are there any practices that you do that
can minimize that or or what do you do

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20:44.8

if you do miss something well in our
system the way we work is we have a

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20:51.6

checklist a very robust checklist and if
it’s a water treat it’s very unlikely

20:51.6

20:54.0

you’re gonna miss a cooling tower
because you probably are already

20:54.0

20:56.9

treating those cooling towers you’re not
going to miss that you’re gonna know

20:56.9

21:00.9

where those are you’re not going to miss
a plumbing system because every building

21:00.9

21:06.7

has long so I mean it’s possible that
you miss a particular part of a system

21:06.7

21:13.9

but the way our structure works is that
in our software is that if you identify

21:13.9

21:17.7

the system type you’re going to get the
control measures for that system so

21:17.7

21:21.7

you’re really not going to be on the
hook for it so it’s almost impossible to

21:21.7

21:25.5

miss a plumbing system it’s I’m very
unlikely to miss a cooling tower if you

21:25.5

21:29.3

miss a fire protection system it’s not
going to matter in terms of Legionella

21:29.3

21:33.4

risk because there aren’t control
measures for that what you’d have to be

21:33.4

21:37.1

probably most careful about believe it
or not our decorative fountains because

21:37.1

21:41.9

those are the ones that you could miss
there might be for example in a hospital

21:41.9

21:48.0

a small ornamental fountain in a
interior garden of some kind or

21:48.0

21:52.2

courtyard that that if you’re talking to
the facility’s people they just forgot

21:52.2

21:55.8

to mention you’re not going to get the
control measures for those at least

21:55.8

21:58.8

again with our software you’re not going
to get the control measures for it if

21:58.8

22:04.2

you don’t select yes for that system in
other words that it is on the campus so

22:04.2

22:11.8

then let’s say you you miss it you don’t
do that three people get sick and the

22:11.8

22:15.2

common link
for all three of those people was this

22:15.2

22:18.6

ornamental fountain that could be a
problem for the water treater I don’t

22:18.6

22:23.2

think that’s really something to fear if
you if you are using a good checklist

22:23.2

22:28.5

and another key another key way to
reduce the risk is to have the

22:28.5

22:34.2

facility’s person or somebody that at
the building sign off on your checklist

22:34.2

22:39.9

of water systems just the yes is in the
nose in ours we actually have a blank

22:39.9

22:46.1

for that a line where the facilities
person signs off and in fact our water

22:46.1

22:49.6

treatment partners are the ones who
recommended we do this we added that and

22:49.6

22:54.3

they have most of them have their
customer sign off did I find all these

22:54.3

22:59.9

systems are these yeses and those
correct and I think if you do those

22:59.9

23:03.8

things you’re very unlikely to miss
something and if you do then it’s really

23:03.8

23:09.0

you can go back look at that form and
say well the customer sign off saying I

23:09.0

23:12.6

identified these systems correctly well
I’ve actually heard of this happening

23:12.6

23:16.1

I’m not going to tell you who told me
that it happened but they were working

23:16.1

23:22.0

with a customer and they were told to
specifically ignore a particular system

23:22.0

23:25.7

we don’t want to deal with it you didn’t
see it don’t put it on the form what

23:25.7

23:30.6

advice do you have about that yeah I
just absolutely would not do it I would

23:30.6

23:35.8

not comply with that request it’s easier
I understand it’s a lot easier for me to

23:35.8

23:40.8

say than for a water treatment company
because their water treatment account

23:40.8

23:45.9

might be on the line you know they don’t
want to displease their customer but I

23:45.9

23:49.9

have actually turned down a lot of plans
especially when the New York laws were

23:49.9

23:55.0

going into effect I wouldn’t do a
cooling tower in my plan I would refuse

23:55.0

24:00.3

to do it so we did a lot of total plans
when we did the ones in New York we were

24:00.3

24:03.6

doing the whole buildings we weren’t
doing just cooling towers and I’m not

24:03.6

24:08.0

saying it’s a bad thing I mean I know
you can have sign-off sheets and ways to

24:08.0

24:11.6

protect yourself and I’m I don’t mean to
condemn people who have done that I’m

24:11.6

24:15.4

just saying that that especially in the
scenario you just gave where it seems

24:15.4

24:19.3

like there’s a particular system they
just want to exclude for whatever reason

24:19.3

24:23.9

I would simply say I can’t provide the
plan that way if it’s if it’s in our

24:23.9

24:26.5

software how we would do it is we’d say
we can provide

24:26.5

24:30.4

the whole thing for you you can then
take it out it’s in our system it’s very

24:30.4

24:34.6

easy to do that they can remove a
particular plan or even a whole water

24:34.6

24:40.0

system category if they wanted to but
I’m not going to do that for them it’s a

24:40.0

24:43.6

risk it’s it’s not the right way to do
it it’s not even good for the customer

24:43.6

24:48.0

if they are suggesting that they are
uneducated as to how to manage their

24:48.0

24:52.7

systems it’s it’s not something they
should really be afraid of to to it to

24:52.7

24:58.0

address that particular building I know
it’s it’s not always an easy situation

24:58.0

25:03.4

to deal with but that is a really
important point though for in general is

25:03.4

25:07.4

that the water treatment company it’s
another reason training is so important

25:07.4

25:12.8

is they have to know it well enough and
be confident enough that they run the

25:12.8

25:18.4

show in fact I talked about this at AWT
well it was last year last year’s

25:18.4

25:24.7

convention I think it was like nine
points to you know important points for

25:24.7

25:29.8

doing a water management plan survey and
one of them is you know you’re the

25:29.8

25:34.0

expert you’re supposed to be so you
don’t let the customer tell you how to

25:34.0

25:35.9

do it
you’re there to provide that service

25:35.9

25:40.6

you’re the expert and you deliver the
plan to them in the way it should be

25:40.6

25:45.1

done if they want to change it then it’s
they can do the changes I wouldn’t I

25:45.1

25:50.7

would not make those changes for them
Matt what are some of the most common

25:50.7

25:55.1

mistakes that you’ve seen people make
during the survey process that if we

25:55.1

25:58.9

know about them we can avoid them well
one would be what I just mentioned

25:58.9

26:04.2

giving the customer too much control
over the process for a couple of reasons

26:04.2

26:08.8

one is the one we just talked about
where they will say well we want this

26:08.8

26:12.5

done we want that done that’s not the
customer’s job you’re there to give them

26:12.5

26:17.5

a plan you give them the plan the right
way you keep control of project it’s not

26:17.5

26:23.5

only so that you make sure you deliver
the best possible plan but also you

26:23.5

26:29.2

control your time instead of you don’t
need to negotiate drafts for work you

26:29.2

26:32.5

should be in and out in one or two days
somebody in fact I was on a call this

26:32.5

26:37.2

morning with a company asking about
water management programs and they said

26:37.2

26:40.2

well we
this site they described it was an

26:40.2

26:46.7

office complex kind of a complex pretty
large development at satellite and they

26:46.7

26:49.9

said how long is this gonna take us you
know is it probably gonna take us two

26:49.9

26:53.9

months I said two days and in fact they
probably wouldn’t take a full two days

26:53.9

26:57.7

if they’re doing it well I mean this is
using our software in our system but

26:57.7

27:04.5

still you can survey that site you can
enter the water system information into

27:04.5

27:09.3

the plan software and literally finish
before you leave at the end of the

27:09.3

27:14.7

second day that’s its it not only
protects your own time it gets the plan

27:14.7

27:20.6

to the customer sooner so they can begin
implementing those measures and reducing

27:20.6

27:25.4

risk the problem with especially if
you’re doing a lot of these with going

27:25.4

27:30.6

on to the next site is it’s it’s so hard
to keep them straight you start getting

27:30.6

27:35.3

different facilities mixed up and so
it’s really better to finish one

27:35.3

27:41.3

completely then go on to the next one so
that would be one of the recommendations

27:41.3

27:44.6

of course you know get trained know what
you’re doing

27:44.6

27:48.5

define your scope well again you don’t
want to get into a risk assessment

27:48.5

27:54.0

aspects you’re not there to identify
dead legs you don’t want to put it upon

27:54.0

27:58.9

yourself to have to do that in our plans
it has measures to address dead legs

27:58.9

28:03.6

crossover lines another stagnant
conditions but it’s not the job of the

28:03.6

28:07.4

surveyor to identify all those if you
put that upon yourself you’re increasing

28:07.4

28:11.1

your risk and you’re also increasing
your time on the site and it really

28:11.1

28:15.5

doesn’t do your customer any good
because it’s better for them to identify

28:15.5

28:20.0

those things that to learn to to manage
them in the manager plan you’re telling

28:20.0

28:24.2

them how to manage those conditions it’s
not up to you to identify all of them so

28:24.2

28:29.6

it’s I would say the training really
defining the scope of the plan properly

28:29.6

28:35.2

being really thorough within that scope
but not getting outside of it and

28:35.2

28:41.4

finishing quickly you’re not negotiating
drafts you deliver a good plan help your

28:41.4

28:46.5

customer on going with the implement not
with making sure they are keeping up

28:46.5

28:49.2

with it I should say
I would suggest quarterly meetings for

28:49.2

28:52.9

that
and one final thing as I would say be

28:52.9

29:00.1

very clear about the time your job ends
in developing the plan and the customers

29:00.1

29:05.1

role begins in implementing it we
actually have a template email we use

29:05.1

29:10.5

for them or our partners have access to
that too they use it that has very

29:10.5

29:14.0

important what we think are very
important points to make and and

29:14.0

29:18.2

basically it’s saying we’re finished
thank you for the work

29:18.2

29:22.3

here’s your plan here’s how you get
access to it here’s what you need to do

29:22.3

29:28.3

to get started implementing and it’s a
very clear line between the development

29:28.3

29:33.2

of plan and the implementation of it
Matt you were very involved when New

29:33.2

29:39.9

York adopted part of ashtrays 188
obviously we’re going to have other

29:39.9

29:47.6

cities that follow suit what was learned
from what New York did and what what do

29:47.6

29:49.0

you think should have been done
differently

29:49.0

29:55.8

well I mean I give him credit that they
responded very quickly to a really bad

29:55.8

30:00.5

situation I mean it was a horrible
outbreak and I’m not gonna slap

30:00.5

30:05.2

somebody’s hand if they didn’t respond
perfectly but I think we all have to

30:05.2

30:08.6

learn from mistakes as well and and
that’s what they did do well they

30:08.6

30:11.0

responded very quickly they did
something about it

30:11.0

30:20.9

the the measures they put in place were
good in that facilities that hardly knew

30:20.9

30:24.6

they had a cooling tower let alone we’re
maintaining it or treating it properly

30:24.6

30:29.8

had to do something about it I saw so
many of these towers I mean some really

30:29.8

30:36.5

really small ones I mean ten town units
that just were not being managed at all

30:36.5

30:40.9

in small towers of course need to be
treated and maintained properly just

30:40.9

30:46.6

like large ones so it was good in that
in that cooling towers that were being

30:46.6

30:51.8

completely neglected started being
addressed I think some of them are

30:51.8

30:55.1

probably gone now the facilities
realized it’s going to be easier just to

30:55.1

30:59.5

get rid of the cooling towers and go
with air-cooled and and not have to

30:59.5

31:03.5

comply with these laws but
they’re you know they’re complying and

31:03.5

31:09.0

doing the treatment and so forth I think
one one real big problem well I mean one

31:09.0

31:12.0

really obvious problem that everybody
who knows about this is cooling tower

31:12.0

31:17.3

zone cooling towers aren’t like we
talked about a few minutes ago they’re

31:17.3

31:21.0

not the only source or even the most
important source necessarily of

31:21.0

31:25.3

Legionella infections the plumbing
systems need to be addressed and

31:25.3

31:30.6

whirlpool spas and so forth so I
wouldn’t necessarily say it’s a mistake

31:30.6

31:34.7

that it was a mistake three years ago
when they started working on these laws

31:34.7

31:40.7

but it would be it would be a mistake to
continue ignoring it did they need to it

31:40.7

31:44.0

needs to be comprehensive they need to
address all the water systems the other

31:44.0

31:49.6

the other thing and I’ve written on this
Psalm is that prescriptive meaning

31:49.6

31:57.9

detailed very detailed regulations can
be actually less protective than

31:57.9

32:03.5

principle based or outcome based
regulations so New York is very specific

32:03.5

32:09.3

in what they require for these cooling
towers contrast that with CMS which gave

32:09.3

32:15.4

basically no details at all it just said
all hospitals and nursing homes have to

32:15.4

32:20.2

set up a water management have to
implement a water master plan according

32:20.2

32:24.2

to a Sheree 188 and the CDC toolkit
effective immediately

32:24.2

32:28.4

that was basically they’ve literally had
three sentences and that’s really what

32:28.4

32:31.6

it boils down to you have to implement a
water mister plan so that’s a little

32:31.6

32:35.1

frustrating to facilities they say Oh
what do we do what do we do and it’s

32:35.1

32:38.2

taking a little bit to weed out the bad
ones

32:38.2

32:44.8

but it’s gonna work out fun with some
criteria with it so that there was an

32:44.8

32:48.9

interesting study when I was looking
into this that I read about the

32:48.9

32:56.2

contrasted prescriptive regulations used
in nursing homes in the US with

32:56.2

33:00.5

principle based or outcome based
regulations used for nursing homes in

33:00.5

33:05.2

Australia they were comparing the
outcomes after a period of time for

33:05.2

33:08.7

nursing homes following these
regulations and the ones in Australia

33:08.7

33:13.8

were doing so much better because what
happens is that when you don’t get

33:13.8

33:17.8

really prescript
it allows the people at the facility to

33:17.8

33:22.7

be more creative to kind of come up with
their own program that works so when you

33:22.7

33:27.3

first look at what some of these
differences are I mean I too laughed out

33:27.3

33:31.1

of thinking well nobody’s going to do
that’s because the Australians they had

33:31.1

33:39.0

rules like burly vague rules like serve
nutritious meals or create a home-like

33:39.0

33:43.6

environment in the nursing homes whereas
in the u.s. they had maybe a hundred

33:43.6

33:49.1

boxes to check you know to reach that
end and you would think well the

33:49.1

33:51.6

Australian nursing homes they’re just
not going to do it because they don’t

33:51.6

33:55.3

have to but what happened was they
actually did a better job because the

33:55.3

33:59.6

ones in the US they were all about just
trying to comply they were trying to

33:59.6

34:03.8

check the box so they wouldn’t get fined
and that’s what happened in New York is

34:03.8

34:08.4

that some of these facilities that had
really good water management plans that

34:08.4

34:12.7

cover not only cooling towers but
plumbing systems like they should they

34:12.7

34:18.3

were getting cited because it didn’t fit
the city’s model the inspectors didn’t

34:18.3

34:23.6

know enough to look beyond the model
plan all they could do was see if the

34:23.6

34:27.2

boxes were checked in the model plant so
if it had anything besides cooling

34:27.2

34:32.1

towers they were issuing citation
completely counter-productive to protect

34:32.1

34:38.1

against regional infections so again I
admire the the health officials

34:38.1

34:43.4

therefore as quickly as they responded
but but that’s those are a couple of the

34:43.4

34:47.1

lessons learned the other one was even
though there were really minor

34:47.1

34:52.7

differences between the state rules and
New York City rules even those small

34:52.7

34:56.6

differences were creating some confusion
so you think about if that were

34:56.6

35:03.6

magnified to several states adopting
regulations in the US and they all had

35:03.6

35:09.2

different sets of regulations and as
opposed to just saying establish a plan

35:09.2

35:12.7

based on Ashley 188 if they were all
prescriptive and they all were all

35:12.7

35:17.1

different think about some of these
property owners that have owned

35:17.1

35:22.1

properties in many different states it
would just be it would be so cumbersome

35:22.1

35:25.8

that they really wouldn’t be able to it
would be so unreasonable they wouldn’t

35:25.8

35:28.4

be able to comply so they would they
would end up

35:28.4

35:34.4

trying to find a way around it so that’s
probably the biggest concern I have

35:34.4

35:37.9

although the regulations can be really
good if they’re prescriptive and

35:37.9

35:41.6

different in each state that’s going to
from a public health standpoint I think

35:41.6

35:45.3

it’s going to do more harm than good
interesting points we’ll have to see

35:45.3

35:50.1

what develops and hopefully as new laws
come out they will they will learn from

35:50.1

35:53.5

people like yourself and of course how
that was implemented up in New York

35:53.5

36:00.0

where do you think the next city will be
where they implement something with

36:00.0

36:05.7

ASHRAE 188 well as much as I hate to say
it where there’s a big outbreak sure but

36:05.7

36:10.8

I know there’s been discussions in and I
don’t know as though it would be a city

36:10.8

36:17.0

it’s probably more likely to be a state
I know some cities have shown interest

36:17.0

36:21.6

in establishing their own regulations
like Philadelphia is one of them but I

36:21.6

36:25.8

would say it’s more States New Jersey
Minnesota Illinois because of the

36:25.8

36:32.9

veterans home situation there I believe
we’re looking into it maybe Michigan but

36:32.9

36:38.2

I don’t know I mean I don’t know where
where it actually will happen next in

36:38.2

36:45.5

fact New York State will probably make
some revisions to some upgrades so to

36:45.5

36:50.1

speak to its regulations maybe before
another state comes online with new ones

36:50.1

36:57.5

just wondering if your crystal ball was
dialed in yeah no I don’t have one now

36:57.5

37:02.4

sooner or later we’re we’re all going to
have some sort of law that we have to

37:02.4

37:06.6

deal with right now
we have time on our side where we can

37:06.6

37:11.0

work with our customers and we can help
them create these plans together what

37:11.0

37:15.5

are some things just some real quick
bullet points that we can do so we’re

37:15.5

37:21.9

not caught off guard like all of the
people were in New York well as far as

37:21.9

37:28.4

water treatment companies go thankfully
you have a great association that is

37:28.4

37:34.0

doing a really good job with education
AWT more so than any other professional

37:34.0

37:39.7

society I know in terms of Legionella
education really providing a lot of

37:39.7

37:44.8

information to its members I would
I would look there you know get educated

37:44.8

37:49.6

through AWT like I said my company has
courses and there are other sources as

37:49.6

37:57.0

well so I would say know what you need
to know know who you need to partner

37:57.0

38:01.1

with what you want to do what you don’t
want to do it’s not the same for every

38:01.1

38:05.8

company if some companies are full bore
into this they want to offer water

38:05.8

38:09.7

management programs they want to offer
all the services they it’s a big part of

38:09.7

38:14.7

their business others want to do just as
little as they possibly can and still

38:14.7

38:18.6

keep their water treatment accounts and
please their customers there’s I don’t

38:18.6

38:22.5

think there’s a right or wrong it’s just
a matter of making sure you’re taking

38:22.5

38:27.1

care of your customer and whatever way
best fits your business model so I

38:27.1

38:31.2

wouldn’t shove it under the carpet it’s
like a lot of other things that might

38:31.2

38:35.4

seem unpleasant to you if it seems
unpleasant to you we kind of put those

38:35.4

38:40.8

off we all have some of those projects I
have some now things I know I should do

38:40.8

38:45.2

and I’ve you know I need to get on it
but I wouldn’t hesitate I would just

38:45.2

38:52.5

dive in and learn what you need to learn
talk to whomever you need to and I mean

38:52.5

38:57.4

the situation in New York I know came on
really quickly you know hopefully

38:57.4

39:00.8

there’s not going to be a big outbreak
like that that’s going to require such a

39:00.8

39:07.2

fast response but in most cases if other
states develop regulations or other

39:07.2

39:13.0

cities there’s probably going to be more
lead time more warning more discussion

39:13.0

39:17.3

before you actually see that I don’t
think there’ll be a big rush but really

39:17.3

39:21.7

the private thing to do now is just to
provide water management plans for your

39:21.7

39:25.8

customers one way or another whether
it’s by referral or directly because

39:25.8

39:30.3

they should have them and then actually
I think reduces the risk you already

39:30.3

39:35.3

have treating cooling towers if if your
customer has a good water management

39:35.3

39:39.5

plan you actually reduces your water
treatment risk so you might as well go

39:39.5

39:45.3

ahead and do that now regardless of
whether regulations are adopted in your

39:45.3

39:51.3

area of service Matt that’s great advice
and folks out there in the Scaling UP!

39:51.3

39:54.2

nation you can’t keep your head in the
sand with this you’ve got

39:54.2

39:59.0

you got to do something and Matt lays
out some great things that you can do

39:59.0

40:02.7

well Matt I’m not quite done with you
yet I’ve got a couple lightning round

40:02.7

40:07.4

questions if you’ll stick around with us
just a little bit longer okay all right

40:07.4

40:13.1

so if you could go back to your first
day as you started doing water

40:13.1

40:18.0

management plans and you went back you
saw yourself and you say hey I’ve got

40:18.0

40:26.4

this great advice this is it
what would you tell yourself I think I

40:26.4

40:31.5

did some things right that I would I
would tell them I’m like don’t

40:31.5

40:36.4

compromise we talked about not
compromising on the quality of the plans

40:36.4

40:42.4

at the comprehensiveness I’m glad I
didn’t I’m glad I didn’t compromise in

40:42.4

40:49.7

order to I mean I lost a lot of sales I
could have had by doing what

40:49.7

40:52.7

somebody wanted me to do instead of what
I thought was right but I’m glad I

40:52.7

40:58.5

didn’t so I would say don’t compromise I
think for me personally it would be to

40:58.5

41:04.6

enjoy the journey more maybe that’s just
kind of a overall advice career-wise I

41:04.6

41:09.9

it’s good advice whoever you are yeah
it’s just instead of putting myself

41:09.9

41:15.7

under pressure for the end result or to
waiting until I’m finished with this or

41:15.7

41:21.3

that just to enjoy the journey ask God
about all the details and just kind of

41:21.3

41:27.1

enjoy it that was that’s what comes to
mind that I would tell myself all right

41:27.1

41:31.6

what’s the last book that you’ve read
Wow

41:31.6

41:35.9

as embarrassing it is I have probably
probably no fewer than 10 that I’m in

41:35.9

41:40.5

the middle of that I have this bad habit
of starting new ones about finishing the

41:40.5

41:47.5

other ones but 3 I’m a middle of one is
called SPQR it’s about this history of

41:47.5

41:52.7

wrong and I’ve I’ve just I’ve really
enjoyed that I’m almost finished with it

41:52.7

41:59.2

read a biography on Martin Luther King
which I really enjoyed a lot reading a

41:59.2

42:05.0

book called god is good which is kind of
is real good for perspective and one

42:05.0

42:09.4

other ones seals survival guys
I have kind of enjoyed reading about

42:09.4

42:15.5

survival techniques you know how to how
to deal with an active shooter with a

42:15.5

42:19.6

sinking ship and all these things so
those are some of the ones I’m in the

42:19.6

42:27.9

middle of it’s a very eclectic list I
like the I like the variety fair enough

42:27.9

42:32.3

obviously they’re gonna make a movie
about your life who plays Matt for eg

42:32.3

42:39.6

gosh I don’t know I don’t um certainly
not gonna hold my breath movie but I

42:39.6

42:44.2

used to have a lot of people tell me I
looked like a particular actor actually

42:44.2

42:47.6

it’s not an actor but I’ll talk show
host I don’t even want to mention his

42:47.6

42:53.6

name because he kind of fell recently
into like a lot of others did but that’s

42:53.6

42:58.4

the only one that comes to mind but I
honestly don’t know well you’re you’re

42:58.4

43:07.9

amongst friends no one’s been a judge
who was it Matt Lauer okay somebody on a

43:07.9

43:12.5

plane come up and like a two years ago
and say oh my gosh is that you or

43:12.5

43:17.2

something like well I think he’s got
some free time so maybe he can do the

43:17.2

43:25.2

movie alright so last question you can
talk with anybody throughout history who

43:25.2

43:32.1

would it be with and why I don’t know I
think it would probably be and I could

43:32.1

43:38.0

say some categories like one would be
Bible heroes like Abraham and David and

43:38.0

43:42.9

amazing things that that they did I
would want to ask them about that I read

43:42.9

43:48.1

a book another book I read that I really
enjoyed a lot recently was about John

43:48.1

43:51.8

Adams and so I think I’d want to talk to
one of our founding fathers but

43:51.8

43:58.5

particularly him I mean the sacrifices
he went through for for our country or

43:58.5

44:05.3

just it’s just it’s a it’s just
incredible and then maybe more recent

44:05.3

44:11.9

people that are heroes to me like MLK
well but yeah so I think that you know

44:11.9

44:17.6

ancient history and then founding
fathers and then some more maybe some

44:17.6

44:21.1

more recent history somebody I can’t I
can’t

44:21.1

44:24.5

down to one person though that I can
think out alright well fair enough good

44:24.5

44:29.9

choices that she gave us Matt this has
been very educational if it’s done

44:29.9

44:34.7

anything it has provoked people in the
Scaling UP! nation to get out there and

44:34.7

44:39.9

learn more about what they don’t know so
I want to thank you for coming on

44:39.9

44:45.9

Scaling UP! well thank you I enjoyed it
well Matt thanks so much for coming on

44:45.9

44:50.7

Scaling UP! h2o I know you did a huge
service today

44:50.7

44:56.7

by letting the Scaling UP! nation know
the nuts and bolts around a water

44:56.7

45:02.7

management program now with that I’m
sure you all have a lot of questions

45:02.7

45:06.5

still that we just didn’t have time to
answer so I’m going to give you a couple

45:06.5

45:12.3

of resources one if you’re new to
Legionella by all means check out one of

45:12.3

45:18.0

my most popular episodes it was with dr.
Janet stout and that was when we talked

45:18.0

45:24.8

about what Legionella is so if you go to
http://scalinguph2o.com/9 or

45:24.8

45:30.4

you go to your favorite podcast app and
look for episode 9 you will be able to

45:30.4

45:36.5

listen to that episode and I gotta tell
you that’s a great episode to share with

45:36.5

45:41.1

your customers because it’s done in a
way that’s not very threatening it’s

45:41.1

45:46.7

very educational and everybody learned
something by the end of that episode and

45:46.7

45:50.9

I got to tell you one thing that I
learned from Matt and I learned so many

45:50.9

45:55.9

things from Matt but he said don’t be
afraid to take a professional with you

45:55.9

46:03.2

and we put so much pressure on ourselves
to be the end-all be-all expert of

46:03.2

46:06.9

everything when we’re out there working
with a client well folks there is

46:06.9

46:12.2

nothing wrong with taking a professional
out there so you can learn from that

46:12.2

46:17.0

professional and make sure you’re doing
the right things the right way

46:17.0

46:21.9

especially when you’re building your
very first water management plan and

46:21.9

46:27.4

then the other most awesome piece of
advice I think he gave us was the fact

46:27.4

46:32.0

that you have to take the lead on this a
lot of times our customers aren’t as

46:32.0

46:38.7

educated on Legionella as we are and
they’re looking at a water management

46:38.7

46:45.0

plan strictly by a bottom-line mentality
and it’s up to us to make sure that we

46:45.0

46:49.5

give them the right information now it’s
their plan they can choose to do

46:49.5

46:54.3

whatever they want to do with it it’s
their building it’s their plan

46:54.3

47:00.5

but we have to make sure that all the
information comes from us and then they

47:00.5

47:05.7

can use that to make their decision so
never let the customer lead you in a

47:05.7

47:09.4

particular direction that you’re not
comfortable with or they don’t have

47:09.4

47:13.3

enough information to make a decision
make sure you’re getting that to them

47:13.3

47:18.5

now if you want to learn more about
Legionella the cdc has a Legionella

47:18.5

47:25.4

toolkit worried it really walks you
through ashtrays 188 survey process I

47:25.4

47:30.9

want to put that up on my show notes
page by all means please take a look at

47:30.9

47:37.0

that that is a great source of
information for you to start learning on

47:37.0

47:44.3

how to do some of these surveys and then
Matt for eg of HD info thank you so much

47:44.3

47:54.9

for this offer so if you go to a lamps –
HC infocom so that’s la mps – HC INF o

47:54.9

48:02.3

comm you will see a list of all of the
courses that he offers and if you have

48:02.3

48:08.0

never taken one of these courses I think
you’re going to be very happy with these

48:08.0

48:12.9

courses he offers some of the best
Legionella training programs that I’ve

48:12.9

48:17.5

seen out there in the industry so if you
go there and you put in the discount

48:17.5

48:23.9

code scalingup5 that’s scaling up
five the number five and it’s all one

48:23.9

48:31.7

word you will get a 5% discount just for
being a listener of Scaling UP! h2o so

48:31.7

48:36.6

many great courses on there I know that
you’re going to enjoy those and I know

48:36.6

48:42.0

you’re going to learn from it and you’re
going to be able to become that expert

48:42.0

48:48.0

in this subject material that I know
that you all want to become folks I

48:48.0

48:52.0

gotta tell you I wouldn’t have done
another legionella episode had it not

48:52.0

48:57.5

been for all of the right ends that I’ve
got asking questions about Legionella

48:57.5

49:02.5

asking questions about water management
plans so it is inherited that if you

49:02.5

49:07.0

have a show idea that you let me know
what that show

49:07.0

49:12.2

idea is it will do absolutely no good to
the water treatment community or

49:12.2

49:18.1

yourself if you keep that locked up in
your head so go to http://scalinguph2o.com/

49:18.1

49:24.4

and you can either go to our show ideas
page right there on the home page or you

49:24.4

49:29.6

can click on leave a voicemail and I
will record your voice right there on

49:29.6

49:34.7

the website if I use your question and
play it on the air I will send you the

49:34.7

49:39.2

most awesome Scaling UP! t-shirt
everybody wants one of those t-shirts

49:39.2

49:42.9

everybody wants to know how do I get a
t-shirt like that well that’s how you

49:42.9

49:47.9

get a t-shirt you record your question
and I use it on the air folks thanks so

49:47.9

49:51.9

much for listening to Scaling UP! h2o I
can’t wait to come to you next week on

49:51.9

49:58.4

Scaling UP! h2o have a great week folks

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