89 Transcript

089 The One That’s All About Filming Amines (General)


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0:08.2

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hello Scaling UP! nation Trace Blackmore
here your host for Scaling UP! h2o the

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podcast where we’re Scaling UP! on
knowledge so we don’t Scaling UP! our

0:18.6

0:26.0

systems and nation I have heard you you
all have questions about filming amine

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0:30.4

products some of us use them in boilers
some of us use them in closed-loop

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0:36.0

systems some of us are using them in
cooling towers well what do we need to

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0:41.2

know about using filming amine products
what do we need to know about the

0:41.2

0:47.4

systems and the products themselves I’ve
heard all types of questions and there’s

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one thing for sure you can turn to
Scaling UP! h2o so you can get this

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valuable information in a format that
you can use when you need it that’s of

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course when you are driving to and from
accounts so folks we are going to do

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that today before we get started though
I do want to let you know about a tool

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that I use and I know you’ve heard about
it before but it is audible folks we are

1:17.7

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in our car so many times throughout the
day we spend so much time in front of

1:23.6

1:30.2

our windshield that we simply don’t have
time to read as much as we want to read

1:30.2

1:34.3

well folks audible is the perfect
solution for that and if you go to

1:34.3

1:39.2

Scaling UP!
h2o dot-com forward slash audible I’ll

1:39.2

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get you a free book and a free month you
can try audible and you can see why I

1:44.9

1:51.5

think it’s one of the best tools that I
have in my car when I’m driving to and

1:51.5

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from accounts well folks again today we
are talking about filming amines now we

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2:03.8

are going to have a lot of information
this is going to be a show that you’re

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2:08.7

going to want to listen to several times
I know several of you out there in the

2:08.7

2:13.0

Scaling UP! nation say that you like
listening to these shows several times

2:13.0

2:18.4

you can get all the information I have
no doubt that this is going to be a one

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2:23.5

of these shows
so I hope you enjoy my interview with

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2:31.7

filming amine expert Marodi Cribari of
WST my lab partner today is Marodi

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2:39.5

Cribari of WST Marodi how the heck are
you today thank you how are you I’m

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doing superbly well thank you so much
for asking Mary I think you and I met

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2:47.6

about two three years ago is that about
right I think so

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2:52.3

yeah I think that yes let’s go okay
we’ll just go with that that’s what it

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2:54.9

was I believe it was out of technical
training for the Association Water

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3:00.2

Technologies and I gotta tell you I love
the way that you just get straight down

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3:05.6

to the matter and you tell it like it is
you had no problem doing that with me

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3:09.5

during my calculations class how you ask
questions and even gave me some

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3:14.0

criticisms that I’ve I’ve changed some
of my slides for I have no doubt that

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3:18.9

you’re going to use that to help
everybody out there in the Scaling UP!

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3:25.5

nation understand filming amines better
uh well hopefully hopefully that’s how

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3:31.4

everybody else walks away from my
engaging I’m sure everybody will love it

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3:34.8

and you know talk about filming the
means there so you asked a water

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treating amines us ten water treaters
you’re gonna get ten different answers

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there’s so much competing information
out there about filming amines I thought

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bringing somebody like yourself who’s an
expert on that subject to answer some of

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those questions and clarify what US
water treatment folk need to know about

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3:59.8

the only that means so we can apply it
properly that’s a show that’s long

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4:03.1

overdue so thank you so much for coming
on and helping us do that

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absolutely sure do you mind letting the
Scaling UP! nation know a little bit

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4:15.3

about yourself before we get started
sure so I am a mom and wife out of

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4:18.8

Denver Colorado I have a degree in
biochemistry that’s what I studied in

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school I spent the first gosh five six
years of my career as a bench chemist in

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4:31.1

oil and gas doing our developing fluid
systems dealing with topside and our

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4:34.9

whole microbial issues
really no different than we do in water

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4:41.5

treatment and working with colloidal
particles versions so super nerdy way of

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saying how do we get more oil and/or
more gas autograph and then I joined the

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4:55.2

wst team initially in oil and gas and I
think my joining wst crashed the oil and

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gas market we killed it for a year and
then I killed the market but that’s okay

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because what it allowed me to do my
bosses came to me and asked me if I

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would join the water treatment team they
very lovingly said we have nothing for

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5:17.0

you to do in oil and gas how do you feel
about water treatment and I said well I

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know a lot about water I don’t know you
know the ins and outs of this particular

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5:25.6

industry but thank you very much for my
job thank you for not just letting me go

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and sure I’ll do whatever you want so
basically they came to me and they said

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there’s just filming a new technology
that we have and we need you to learn

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5:37.4

absolutely everything you can and we’re
gonna put you on a team with a sales guy

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and we want you two to go out and
educate the community and sell it and so

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I basically spent about a year honestly
just doing nothing but being the wst

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filming a mean Librarian where anything
I could get my hands on to read anybody

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you that had had experience that I could
speak with that’s all I did and then it

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allowed us to come out basically the
other side of that with a decent what I

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6:09.2

would consider theoretical understanding
of the application of filming means

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where they’ve been used how they’ve been
used why they’ve been used how they’ve

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changed over time and then come forth to
the US market and and bring them make it

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available to us here in the United
States so that’s kind of my background

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and all of that I guess is that you
wanna know anything else I’m an Aries

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does that matter I think that does
matter the eternal innovation was

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wondering what your sign was yeah April
baby there you go merridy you were in

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the audience when I did my presentation
in the 2018 AWT convention and Expo

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and I think you saw there was a lot of
confusion about really what filming

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6:56.0

amines were how to test for it you
actually got up and helped explain how I

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went about my process for testing so
there’s so many questions about filming

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amines it’s almost hard to figure out
where to start so I want to start at the

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beginning because I can figure that
that’s the best place for it so what is

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a filming a mean so do you want the
super nerdy answer well of course and

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then and then we can lighten it out from
there okay so super nerdy answer a

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filming amine is an organic molecule so
we have organic and inorganic chemistry

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organic chemistry specifically speaking
is carbon chemistry right so it’s it’s a

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molecule with a big fatty tail so
basically a big carbon chain that looks

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like a big long tail and then an amine
molecule and amine itself is a in

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organic chemistry we call it a
functional group okay a functional group

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is just a molecule that can perform a
specific function so an amine is a

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functional group carboxyl groups or
captains there’s all different types of

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functional groups so a film being a mean
specifically is a molecule that’s got a

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big carbon tail and then an amine head
and why that matters is that that that

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big chain that big tail is what we call
hydrophobic they don’t like water okay

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and then the amine heads are what we
would call hydrophilic they do like

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water so it helps that molecule go into
a solution if you will so each side of

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the molecule whether you’re talking
about the tail or the head can perform a

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specific function a filming amine is
it’s a name that we gave a specific set

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of molecules based on a function okay so
it’s nomenclature based on something

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that it’s capable of doing in this case
filming lots of things formed films

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right glycols can form a type of film
bzt

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is actually a filming amine type
Street there’s a mean functional groups

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on there it just doesn’t have the same
type of tail is when we refer to filming

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in mean chemistry you also hear them
call up poly amines a poly amine is is a

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name or a nomenclature based on a
structure right so poly if you remember

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back to grade school when you were
learning all about prefixes and suffixes

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and Latin Latin terms right poly means
many so it just means many amines so a

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polyamine could mean that you have one
amine group on that tail it could mean

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that you have two amine groups on that
tail right a diamine or a try and meet

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mono diet rod so it’s it’s all
nomenclature based on either function or

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structure and ultimately filming amines
or poly amines whatever you wanna call

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9:56.4

in fatty acid amines they fall into a
category of in with inorganic chemistry

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of organic surfactants that’s ultimately
you can you can say there’s so many

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different ways to to say what they are
but you have to break down the word to

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fully understand what a writer or an
author’s trying to communicate about a

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specific structure does that make sense
I think it does so as us water treatment

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10:23.4

folk used those terms interchangeably is
that okay well it is two degree like I

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said polyamine means many so if you have
octave Dessel amine or Oda which is a

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molecule that we’re all very very
familiar with that’s actually a mono

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amine so technically speaking
categorically I mean that nomenclature

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doesn’t exactly fit but what we’ve done
jargon wise as a community is accept the

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word poly mean or the word film you mean
to be kind of this all-encompassing

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10:53.1

piece there’s actually a lot of
different types of filming amines out

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10:57.6

there there’s a lot of different
molecules that have been created and

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that can serve this same filming
function so I think to use it as a

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blanket statement is is fine because
it’s a word that we’ve all accepted as

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appropriate but if you get super nerdy
like yours truly and you want to

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down to the ins and outs and wise and
you speak to some organic chemists along

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the way they might pick at you so
everybody has been so warned and armed

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11:27.4

with the right terminology well thank
you for that definition I know that

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11:33.4

helps you know we’re talking a lot about
a means today but is this a new

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11:39.3

technology so filming a means actually
came about really in the 1960s like mid

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11:48.8

1960s and honestly I don’t know the the
initial application of them or who got

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you know a spark of an idea in their
brain I thought I know we could do this

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11:58.3

what I do know if we look through the
history of them is that now 1965 that

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12:03.4

kind of came on the scene and to be
perfectly honest they were a bit of

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12:09.4

logistical nightmare filming amines in
their raw material form because remember

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how I said they were organic surfactants
they actually come as inorganic

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surfactants so it’s like a waxy block
right and how they were applied because

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there was really no other understanding
of how to apply them at that point was

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they that block was just dropped into
water and then you were at the mercy of

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12:35.5

you know rate of diffusion temperature
agitation and and that really determines

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12:40.5

how the chemistry ended up really
ultimately being applied right

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you were you were at the mercy of all of
these physical characteristics and what

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they found was that yeah it could be a
real problem applying it that way you

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12:54.4

could get a lot of thunking you could
get no movement right if you if you

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12:57.3

didn’t really have a great rate of
diffusion if you didn’t have a decent

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13:02.1

amount of flow if there wasn’t enough
agitation on that surfactant brick then

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nothing got released or maybe you had
way too much movement way too fast right

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and then you ended up with kind of a
slime scenario what they realized though

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is that for whatever reason even though
at the time they didn’t really

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understand the rhyme or reason for how
it was functioning is that when it

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worked it worked like nothing else did
so basically a team of

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13:29.8

this team of scientists said okay well
that’s really look at this then let’s

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13:34.0

figure out how to make this more
functional because there is potential

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13:37.6

for the chemistry here we just have to
figure out how to make it more

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13:44.2

user-friendly right so fast-forward to I
don’t know early maybe mid 70s and they

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13:49.3

had really started to address the
solubility issue rather than applying it

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13:54.7

in brick form they figure out how to get
the chemistry into solution fast forward

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a little bit more and we figured out how
to not only get it into solution but

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14:04.1

then how to apply it and really by by
2000s

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I mean patents had come out well really
late 80s early 90s you really saw all of

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14:14.2

that started to really surface not just
in formulation but in application and

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then fast forward a little bit more we
figured out how to test it and I think

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14:24.8

the biggest advancement the biggest the
biggest thing that we’ve learned to date

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is that the chemistry no different
honestly no different than any other

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14:37.1

type of chemistry the chemistry can work
the challenging piece in applying any

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14:42.4

type of chemistry filming means included
is actually the mechanical components of

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14:47.9

what type of system were going into
Marodi that was a great history lesson

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14:53.2

on how amines came to where we are today
and I couldn’t help but thinking when I

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14:59.0

was working with my father and he would
use octave Dessel amine or Oda in

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15:04.8

boilers and he loved it and he hated it
and one of the reasons that he hated it

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he would call them gumball sometimes he
would call him snot balls that he would

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they would start to build on themselves
and they would clog areas when he didn’t

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15:19.6

have that problem it treated the lines
that he was having issues with better

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15:24.3

than anything else but a lot of people
are still thinking those are the amines

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15:29.2

that we’re talking about right now can
you speak on that sure so I think really

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15:35.2

it’s it’s kind of twofold the first
thing is is that imminent is possible to

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15:39.1

overfeed something it’s possible to
overfeed any chemistry right

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15:45.1

the reality of the situation is the the
molecule that we’re dealing with can

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15:51.2

form a fisheye right it can the flip
side of that is exactly what your dad

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15:55.4

was saying in that when you when you
dosed it properly you didn’t have that

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16:01.7

that sort of issue the original molecule
the original gangster if you will is Oda

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its octave Dessel to me that’s what
everyone’s familiar with an honest to

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god is just because it was the first one
on the scene but it’s what people have

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the most experience with is what people
have heard about little market periods

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16:15.3

of time
however the molecules that we deal with

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today there’s there’s so many different
filming amines out there some of them

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16:26.4

like we said mono means diamines tri
means there’s Talos there’s s oxalate I

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16:30.7

mean you could you can do so many
different things to these molecules and

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16:36.3

we really work with cocktails of them
the the kicker is and the reason I think

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16:43.2

we continue to hear about OD a1 is
because people have major PTSD type

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16:47.0

responses from when they had a bad
experience and that’s understandable the

16:47.0

16:55.9

other piece of that is that OD a is the
only filmer on on the CFR whatever it

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16:59.9

173 what’s a good number I never
remember the number for use and

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17:07.1

application in for FDA and so if you’re
in an FDA facility whether it’s a

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17:10.9

hospital or a food facility or something
like that where you have to conform to a

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17:16.1

regulation and you want to use filming
technology that’s your only option what

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17:21.2

we do know though is that the
formulations that everyone was dealing

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17:27.5

with initially are not the formulations
that used Oda today so if the concern is

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17:32.2

oh my gosh this happens Oda before this
will happen with Oda again I can’t say

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17:37.2

beyond a shadow of a doubt that you may
not see movement of you know if you

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17:41.1

overfeed a situation that there couldn’t
potentially be an issue I don’t have a

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17:45.3

crystal ball that’s not possible but
what I can tell you is the formulations

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17:48.5

that were originally developed or
different than the formulations with

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17:51.0

that molecule that we use today it’s
much easy

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17:55.8

to work with we we worked out a lot of
the kinks I will tell you from my

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17:59.4

personal experience and some of the
tests that I’ve done I’ve tried to make

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18:05.2

it fail and we have had a lot of
difficulty to duplicate anything like we

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18:11.3

would see with Oda it hasn’t happened
once sure I’m truly the places in my

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18:15.4

experience where I’ve seen it be a
challenge we haven’t had at fisheye

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18:21.2

type or what do you call them gum Falls
sorry at home fish eyes scenario but you

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18:26.0

can with filming it means you are gonna
Rameau belies metals that’s part of how

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18:31.2

they function that’s part of actually
what’s great about them but if you move

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18:36.0

if you have a really heavily corroded
environment and you move a lot of that

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18:42.5

really fast it can get dunkey right so
knowing how to apply it and where to

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18:46.6

apply it and what to keep an eye on and
honestly in the beginning what to apply

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18:50.9

it potentially with to prevent that
phenomenon so that you don’t plug steam

18:50.9

18:54.9

traps so that you don’t have some of
those you know do a little preventative

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18:58.9

so you don’t have some some of those
issues it’s just it’s all in in

18:58.9

19:03.7

understanding application that’s a great
point and as we talk today we’re going

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19:07.4

to talk about some of those things to
make sure that we’ve got insurance so

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19:11.4

stuff like that wouldn’t happen of
course when I was running my tests we

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19:15.3

were doing what we knew to do to bring
the system up to a point and then we

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19:18.9

were like okay let’s see now that
everything’s working let’s see if we can

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19:24.2

get a failure within a controlled
situation so I’m not advising somebody

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19:28.1

just go out there and throw a
five-gallon drum into a system and see

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19:31.9

what happens and we’re going to talk
about all the things that the Scaling UP!

19:31.9

19:37.0

nation should be doing when they start
up a new system as we continue our

19:37.0

19:43.3

conversation all righty here is your
opportunity you get to nerd out again my

19:43.3

19:50.0

question for you is how does filming
amine work basically five shaded by we

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19:52.6

talked about an amine being a functional
group

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19:59.7

well that amine head whether there’s one
or up to three or a molecule right each

19:59.7

20:03.5

have little electron pairs there’s a we
call it

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20:08.9

electron pair which is just a really
fancy way of saying a reactive area for

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20:16.0

a particular molecule okay in those
little amines and that electron pair

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20:20.9

likes to react with metals it doesn’t
really matter what metal but there’s

20:20.9

20:26.0

just it’s it’s a charge to type
attraction in the simplest form of of

20:26.0

20:30.6

the explanation and so the amines are
attracted to the metals and they go to

20:30.6

20:37.4

the metals pump and they pop on right
they adsorb on to the surface and then

20:37.4

20:42.2

what you end up with is all these little
tails sticking out away from them

20:42.2

20:46.1

whether it you know if you imagine the
metal surface you get all these little

20:46.1

20:50.9

amines attached to the metal and then
all of their little tails sticking up

20:50.9

20:57.2

into the center and I want you to think
military-type marching strategy okay

20:57.2

21:02.0

they’re not just kind of this haphazard
random like once here and once there and

21:02.0

21:06.1

I don’t know where the other ones are
but they line up they line themselves up

21:06.1

21:11.0

there’s this magical spacing that occurs
between the molecules themselves that

21:11.0

21:15.1

you get them adsorbed onto the surface
and then you get what we call in a minha

21:15.1

21:18.4

mean interaction so you get our
interaction between the functional

21:18.4

21:22.1

groups themselves that helps organize
them structure them and give them

21:22.1

21:26.7

specific spacing and then all their
little tails stick up into the middle so

21:26.7

21:31.9

what you’ve effectively done is no
different than like paint you you’ve

21:31.9

21:37.3

coated the surface with them the kicker
is and this is why this type of filming

21:37.3

21:42.1

amines are different why they work so
effectively for corrosion ambition is

21:42.1

21:47.6

that you filmed them and then because
all their little tails are sticking up

21:47.6

21:52.7

into basically what we would call the
water space right

21:52.7

21:56.1

all those little tails are hydrophobic
we talked about that in the beginning

21:56.1

22:01.7

they don’t like water so you basically
have put down almost like in oily

22:01.7

22:07.4

coating if you will go into your kitchen
oil and water don’t mix right so then

22:07.4

22:12.8

what happens is the water and by virtue
of that anything in the water doesn’t

22:12.8

22:16.0

get to come in contact with the metal
because you’ve just formed this

22:16.0

22:19.4

hydrophobic barrier
on the surface of the metal so if the

22:19.4

22:24.2

water can’t come in contact with the
surface and the ions in solution can’t

22:24.2

22:30.3

come in contact with the metal surface
then we greatly reduce corrosion rate

22:30.3

22:35.6

and potential for deposition does that
make sense I think that makes a lot of

22:35.6

22:41.4

sense I really like the marching analogy
that’s you said there now I’m sure

22:41.4

22:44.3

there’s somebody out there that’s saying
okay well if we’re putting this film on

22:44.3

22:48.9

there is that going to affect the heat
transfer of the system well so yes

22:48.9

22:53.1

actually it is but not in the way you’re
thinking right so people always think

22:53.1

22:57.8

anything on the surface is gonna induce
some sort of insulation and what filming

22:57.8

23:05.3

amines do is this is my way of phrasing
this they foster smooth compact metal

23:05.3

23:11.1

oxide layers so we talked about how they
form films and how that functions and

23:11.1

23:16.1

I’ll answer all come full circle in just
a second I promise but the other thing

23:16.1

23:23.9

that they do is they remove old loose
corrosion debris right so if you imagine

23:23.9

23:29.3

a mountain range right so if you imagine
your pipe looks like the Rockies where I

23:29.3

23:33.5

am right and there’s just all of these
peaks and valleys and some of the

23:33.5

23:40.8

mountains are taller than others and you
have to move heat from the core of the

23:40.8

23:46.9

earth through all of those you get
varying rates of movement right but if I

23:46.9

23:51.8

bring you out into the plains where we
just kind of have smoother what would I

23:51.8

23:56.0

would consider more homogenous rolling
hills we don’t have the same extreme

23:56.0

24:03.2

changes in elevation it’s a lot easier
to move heat from a quarter crust

24:03.2

24:09.5

through those hills right the same thing
holds true to a system that has been

24:09.5

24:14.9

cleaned up and filmed over with filming
a means what filming a means can do and

24:14.9

24:20.6

what we’ve seen them do is go through
and remove old corrosion debris and they

24:20.6

24:25.0

take in a pipe around a two-door
whatever what looks like a Mountain

24:25.0

24:30.7

corrosion wise and they smooth it out
and they turn it into rolling

24:30.7

24:38.5

very okay and so what happens then is
your heat transfer it’s easier to move

24:38.5

24:42.8

through that smooth layers you actually
see improved heat transfer with the

24:42.8

24:48.7

application of filming means there was a
gentleman out of rostock germany at the

24:48.7

24:55.0

university and he looked at what’s the
difference in magnetite layer thickness

24:55.0

24:59.8

if you use a conventional treatment
program like conventional phosphate

24:59.8

25:06.2

program versus an amine program and I
want to say I mean you’d have to you’d

25:06.2

25:09.4

have to read it all of history you know
all of his work to fully understand the

25:09.4

25:14.7

whole spectrum of what he was doing but
average thickness of magnetite layer and

25:14.7

25:21.8

a conventional program was like 15.6
micrometers and the average thickness in

25:21.8

25:28.1

a filmed environment was like five five
point something I remember with them the

25:28.1

25:33.4

point was I apologized but so you’re
reducing magnetite thickness by a third

25:33.4

25:40.2

an Ergo improving heat transfer so does
it have an impact on heat transfer yes

25:40.2

25:46.2

is it in an insulated way like we would
assume within the chemistry’s no and

25:46.2

25:52.6

hopefully my explanation explains why if
not I apologize if I can be sure no I

25:52.6

25:56.4

think you’re doing a great job you have
a gift of analogy and you’ll bring

25:56.4

26:00.3

something that everybody can visualize
into your explanation I think you’re

26:00.3

26:07.3

doing a great job thank you I usually
get visual aids I feel like to be there

26:07.3

26:12.9

you know at the podcast is a horrible
visual platform when I do certain shows

26:12.9

26:17.7

I’ll be writing things down or I even do
things on my whiteboard which nobody can

26:17.7

26:22.5

see but it helps me actually get through
the podcast hopefully the people out

26:22.5

26:26.0

there listening can can not only
understand what you’re saying but also

26:26.0

26:30.9

understand what I’m saying on those
other podcast so you know filming amines

26:30.9

26:36.9

came out originally with boilers and now
we’re hearing them treat pretty much

26:36.9

26:41.7

every system that we come in contact
with so I thought we could explore that

26:41.7

26:45.4

that you know did it start and boilers
and then we learned on boilers and now

26:45.4

26:48.8

we can now we learned that we can treat
other systems what’s going on with that

26:48.8

26:55.1

and what systems is it suitable to be
used in originally when filming means

26:55.1

26:57.6

we’re first used again it was a Hail
Mary

26:57.6

27:02.4

it was either because there was gonna be
some sort of a shutdown and it was for

27:02.4

27:06.6

an unknown period of time and they
basically felt like they had no other

27:06.6

27:12.0

option or it was because something
happened there was some force majeure

27:12.0

27:16.8

type of event there was an earthquake
there was center of something where

27:16.8

27:21.9

basically it was it was kind of their
only option but conventionally a mean

27:21.9

27:28.3

chemistry was steam line chemistry right
it was all about protecting a common

27:28.3

27:34.1

state line and so in high pressure
systems they would basically in these at

27:34.1

27:37.5

these types of events they’d be like
well there’s really no other option

27:37.5

27:42.5

apparently we’re trying this and
instinctively they would try apply to

27:42.5

27:47.2

apply right before a steam line and what
they learned when it went well was that

27:47.2

27:51.5

it worked and it worked like nothing
else did so what does that mean that

27:51.5

27:57.9

means that not only did they decrease
the the iron that was lost during

27:57.9

28:03.7

whatever that timeframe was but it also
meant then when they brought a system

28:03.7

28:09.3

back online that in iron throw did
happen because expansion and contraction

28:09.3

28:15.1

so exists right there still confits is
still involved that the rate of recovery

28:15.1

28:20.0

to what would be considered acceptable
operating conditions whether you’re

28:20.0

28:23.6

looking at that in water quality or
you’re looking at that in Mills per year

28:23.6

28:28.5

pick your favorite marker for success so
the amount of iron that got thrown was

28:28.5

28:33.3

substantially less and so what they
started doing was looking at okay so we

28:33.3

28:37.4

know it works in condensate mines right
it’s it’s a volatile chemistry they can

28:37.4

28:41.2

go into solution they can go up into the
steam they can transfer through what

28:41.2

28:46.1

they started seeing was in systems with
decent rates of return at this point

28:46.1

28:49.3

specifically high pressure high
temperature systems they would start

28:49.3

28:54.7

seeing it come back around in the
condensate return and then systems from

28:54.7

28:58.4

the point of car
they return up to a boiler and then in a

28:58.4

29:03.0

boiler and then back out the line they
were noticing the same the same type of

29:03.0

29:06.8

phenomenon through an entire system and
and they really just escaped okay it’s

29:06.8

29:11.8

an all volatile type treatment so then
the question became how can we make it

29:11.8

29:16.3

easier to apply this instead of going
into a steam header or something like

29:16.3

29:20.8

that like we would conventionally do
with a mean type chemistry and honestly

29:20.8

29:25.7

some places still do even with what I
would consider modern filming technology

29:25.7

29:30.6

products is there an easier way to do it
is there a way that’s more economical to

29:30.6

29:33.5

do it I mean if there’s a better way to
build a widget can we figure out a

29:33.5

29:37.8

better way to build a widget type of
advancements right and what they learned

29:37.8

29:44.6

was okay if we apply it in these other
areas one it’s easier in two we get the

29:44.6

29:48.8

same type of functioning in the boiler
right we get the same type of cleaning

29:48.8

29:54.9

and filming and protection as we do in a
steam line we see the same type of thing

29:54.9

29:59.3

then occur in a da we see the same type
of phenomenon in a condensate return

29:59.3

30:04.8

tank and it makeup taken in all of the
different locations and on all of these

30:04.8

30:10.4

different metallurgies so I think then
the question you know for the guys that

30:10.4

30:14.8

were out there being innovative and
trying to sell business was okay well if

30:14.8

30:19.6

it works here in relatively mixed in
metallurgy situations why would it not

30:19.6

30:23.4

work somewhere else you know we talked
so much about magnetite we talked so

30:23.4

30:28.6

much about mild steel but the reality of
the situation is we see this type of

30:28.6

30:33.2

filming phenomenon with all different
types of metals we see it on copper we

30:33.2

30:38.1

see it on aluminum you know we see it in
all of the different areas so why would

30:38.1

30:44.5

it not function in those areas and so I
think people got innovative and we’re

30:44.5

30:49.7

willing to try for lack of a better
phrase we’re willing to to give it a go

30:49.7

30:55.2

and what we found is we can do the same
thing in cooling towers with building

30:55.2

30:59.5

means we can do the same thing in closed
loops with filming it means the filmers

30:59.5

31:06.0

don’t they don’t really care I say that
the Cavalera manner they really don’t

31:06.0

31:10.7

coppers copper
I’m just gonna film it what we have seen

31:10.7

31:15.4

as far as putting filming the means in
different types of systems is that

31:15.4

31:22.5

cocktails are developed for specific
types of systems so for example if you

31:22.5

31:27.6

have a closed loop system that’s
primarily aluminum aluminum likes the

31:27.6

31:35.5

lower pH right it just does and so in
that cocktail is there really a need for

31:35.5

31:40.6

like an alkalizing to me something to
drive the pH up and the easy answer is

31:40.6

31:45.7

well no probably not in reality maybe
quite the contrary is that maybe a more

31:45.7

31:50.9

suitable cocktail for on Lumina based
systems is something that’s got the

31:50.9

31:54.1

filming amines in there but it’s
alkalizing the mean-free in a cooling

31:54.1

31:58.1

tower is there ever a reason to put
alkalizing means in there you know

31:58.1

32:02.9

probably not in fact we actually
actively work to change the pH or bring

32:02.9

32:07.2

it down a little bit yes so why would we
put them in there so I think the

32:07.2

32:12.3

development has come for four different
cocktails if you will or different

32:12.3

32:16.0

chemistry’s different formulations for
different types of systems it was based

32:16.0

32:24.2

on the needs of that type of system I
say that but honestly from a filming

32:24.2

32:28.5

amine perspective if you took a boiler
product and you put it in a cooling

32:28.5

32:32.8

tower while I don’t know that it would
necessarily be the best suited and one

32:32.8

32:36.6

could argue that there’s actually
materials in that boiler product that

32:36.6

32:40.2

would not be in the best interest of the
cooling tower that filmers would still

32:40.2

32:43.6

perform the same it might cause you
other issues but the filmers would still

32:43.6

32:47.8

go in and film does that make sense it
makes perfect sense and I know for a

32:47.8

32:51.9

fact that there are people out there
that have that very question hey I’m

32:51.9

32:56.8

using product X in my boiler so I
already have that in stock well I don’t

32:56.8

33:01.5

I just put that in my cooling tower
because I already own it and they say

33:01.5

33:04.6

that filming amines are good for cooling
towers so I think that was a great

33:04.6

33:09.1

explanation yeah I would talk to your
vendor if your vendor to answer those

33:09.1

33:12.7

questions for you then then either you
need to do more digging or your vendor

33:12.7

33:16.0

needs to do more digging it’s new
technology to the United States or it’s

33:16.0

33:21.3

relatively new right it’s not new but in
the US this phenomenon is new with

33:21.3

33:25.5

industry and so everybody’s still
learning everybody’s still working

33:25.5

33:27.8

through things it’s a fair question to
ask

33:27.8

33:32.3

talk to your vendor fair enough now you
mentioned this is newer here in the

33:32.3

33:37.1

states but I know in Europe they’ve been
using it longer can you speak a little

33:37.1

33:43.2

bit about that sure it’s really all over
Russia actually the reality of the

33:43.2

33:50.2

situation is they just were willing to
look at the technology in developing the

33:50.2

33:54.9

technology before we were the way I like
to think about it is they were

33:54.9

33:59.8

two-degree willing to be the canary but
I think actually a lot of that has to do

33:59.8

34:03.6

with the fact that the direction that
the market was driven over there they

34:03.6

34:07.9

have different regulatory rules on what
they are and are not allowed to use over

34:07.9

34:13.0

there and they’ve always been within
reason just a little bit more strict

34:13.0

34:17.2

than we have been in the United States
and so I think that part of the

34:17.2

34:22.0

innovation and the development of these
types of things came out of necessity

34:22.0

34:28.2

and they had to find alternative options
so honestly I think that if your goal is

34:28.2

34:34.7

education either Logan or Xavier they
both live over there they have lots of

34:34.7

34:38.5

experience over there and they could
probably explain more of how the market

34:38.5

34:44.6

was driven overseas what I do know about
what has occurred in the United States

34:44.6

34:51.8

is basically as a company our owner was
a water treaty right it’s just what he

34:51.8

34:58.4

did he was a wanna treat her before he
owned wst and so I think to a degree he

34:58.4

35:02.8

was kind of fascinated with that the
technology was presented to him he

35:02.8

35:08.2

remembered he had those knee-jerk
reactions from the original OTA you know

35:08.2

35:14.5

brick technology and so then you know by
him changing his career path starting

35:14.5

35:19.7

wst and coming contact and being more of
a vendor he was this technology was

35:19.7

35:24.8

brought before him and honestly I think
it was just interesting to it and so he

35:24.8

35:29.0

said okay well we already have these
relationships in place you know how

35:29.0

35:33.3

could we bring this to the US and he
went out on the limb and

35:33.3

35:38.0

he brought a few of us onto this team
and he just kind of allowed us to do it

35:38.0

35:44.2

he’d have a mark our only job was to
solve problems and if we could do it

35:44.2

35:49.2

using filming technology then we were
allowed to do it that way and so that’s

35:49.2

35:55.9

kind of how wst really got brought into
the product line it actually we had it

35:55.9

36:01.9

available to us a couple of years before
my team actually was really started

36:01.9

36:06.7

working on it because that we needed we
needed the support team and staff to be

36:06.7

36:11.0

able to to go out and try and be
successful with it so that’s kind of how

36:11.0

36:18.1

we got a hold of it if you will was
working with team overseas but the in

36:18.1

36:22.6

the u.s. it’s they’ve actually there are
groups that have been looking at it for

36:22.6

36:29.2

longer the kicker is it’s all privately
owned so it’s it’s either Department of

36:29.2

36:35.6

Energy or every it’s been working with
the technology for gosh upwards of a

36:35.6

36:41.6

decade now and so the information exists
in the United States the research has

36:41.6

36:46.1

been done in the United States it’s just
not necessarily made public yet and

36:46.1

36:52.9

where teams like ours or some of the
other us-based vendors that have started

36:52.9

36:57.7

trying to you know figure out
formulations or come forward with the

36:57.7

37:01.9

technology it’s been a little bit
delayed but I think it’s coming down the

37:01.9

37:06.8

pike more than people realize I think
that there’s been so much success I mean

37:06.8

37:09.9

there’s been headaches and figuring out
you know stumbling blocks along the way

37:09.9

37:14.3

but ultimately there’s been so much
success not just overseas but also here

37:14.3

37:17.4

in the United States now that that
people have realized that it’s really

37:17.4

37:24.1

becoming much more of a go-to chemistry
than a one-off you know nothing else is

37:24.1

37:28.0

working so why not chemistry yeah I
think that makes perfect sense you know

37:28.0

37:31.8

and if you look at it the states are
just slow to respond I mean look at

37:31.8

37:35.5

Legionella look at water conservation
you know all that stuff we’re normally

37:35.5

37:40.7

taking the lead from some other nation
and then we’re applying that here so why

37:40.7

37:45.4

should it means be any different I think
that’s totally realistic I think that

37:45.4

37:49.2

you know my
triolic side says we should be allowed

37:49.2

37:53.8

to functionally make choices and move
forward and make decisions for ourselves

37:53.8

37:58.1

but at the same time sometimes that
slows us up a little bit sometimes I

37:58.1

38:03.0

think we hold ourselves back so the last
thing I think about filming means in

38:03.0

38:08.4

general is that if you’re interested in
them if you want to learn to use them or

38:08.4

38:12.5

honestly if you’re if you’re a
professional in the AWT or water

38:12.5

38:18.9

treatment industry filming technology we
can’t say anymore it’s coming the

38:18.9

38:23.9

reality of the situation is it’s here
and so the best thing you can do for

38:23.9

38:29.7

yourself beyond obviously listen to the
podcasts beyond go to technology

38:29.7

38:33.4

conferences and and try and learn as
much as possible from the professionals

38:33.4

38:41.2

that are there is read there’s so much
information that is published on use and

38:41.2

38:44.3

application and how do they work and why
do they work

38:44.3

38:50.0

ie PWS has whole technical guidance
documents out there I mean it is it is

38:50.0

38:54.6

an international collaboration for
application of these types of

38:54.6

39:01.3

technologies and so if I could encourage
you to do anything it would be read

39:01.3

39:06.8

educate yourself some of the reading is
not is you know titillating as others

39:06.8

39:10.4

however you will learn something from
all of it it will enable you to speak a

39:10.4

39:15.0

language that you need to be able to
speak to be competitive and successful

39:15.0

39:20.5

so read educate yourself that is
outstanding advice you’re never going to

39:20.5

39:26.8

go wrong by having more knowledge about
a particular topic so merridy there is

39:26.8

39:32.4

so much more that we need to cover thank
you so much for coming on I don’t want

39:32.4

39:36.3

to take all of your time today so I’m
going to ask if you’ll come back next

39:36.3

39:42.4

week and we can talk about the specifics
of each system that we as water treaters

39:42.4

39:46.3

would run into sure
well Scaling UP! nations stay tuned

39:46.3

39:50.5

because next week we’re going to talk
about the systems that you are treating

39:50.5

39:54.4

and maybe filming amines are an
additional way or maybe

39:54.4

39:59.4

even a better way maybe they solve a
problem that you can’t seem to solve

39:59.4

40:08.2

right now so tune in next week and we’ll
start talking about the specific systems

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