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0:08.1
0:12.3
welcome to Scaling UP! the industrial
water treaters podcast
0:12.3
0:17.8
hello Scaling UP! nation Trace Blackmore
here your host for Scaling UP! h2o the
0:17.8
0:22.1
podcast where we’re Scaling UP! on
knowledge so we don’t scale up our
0:22.1
0:28.7
systems I am going to let you know in on
a secret
0:28.7
0:37.7
in 1997 I met a gentleman that spoke to
me at the AWT Technical Training
0:37.7
0:43.6
conference and that gentleman was
British and he seemed to know a whole
0:43.6
0:50.1
bunch about water treatment and he did
not mind letting me know anything that I
0:50.1
0:56.3
wanted him to let me know about he was a
fantastic guy I didn’t know him at all
0:56.3
1:03.5
back then so for the past over 20 years
I have been able to call this gentleman
1:03.5
1:09.3
a friend and I was very fortunate today
he showed up at our offices here at
1:09.3
1:15.3
Blackmore Enterprises just to say hi and
the person I am talking about is Colin
1:15.3
1:23.5
frein CWT if you have been at any
AWT function you have met Colin frame he
1:23.5
1:30.7
is synonymous with AWT he is one of our
best speakers he has so much experience
1:30.7
1:37.2
he speaks about 40 different languages
he is just a heck of a guy and he has
1:37.2
1:43.1
been in water treatment for quite some
time and as you know from listening to
1:43.1
1:48.3
this show you cannot be in water
treatment without making some mistakes
1:48.3
1:55.6
so Colin was so gracious to come on the
show to share some of his experiences
1:55.6
2:02.0
what he does on a day-to-day basis how
he got into the industry and all things
2:02.0
2:08.5
water treatment so I know you are going
to enjoy my interview with Colin frein
2:08.5
2:16.6
CWT my lab partner today is Colin frein
CWT Colin thank you so much for coming
2:16.6
2:21.3
on Scaling UP! h2o been trying to get you
on the show it seems like the longest
2:21.3
2:26.5
time now you were gracious enough to
stop by the office and here you are
2:26.5
2:29.9
it’s a pleasure to be here even if I
haven’t actually had a cup of coffee
2:29.9
2:32.4
from you yet
well I’ve offered you a cup of coffee
2:32.4
2:36.2
you just did it’s fine now it’s good to
be here obviously it’s very impressive
2:36.2
2:39.9
and I like it yeah it’s good
well the Scaling UP! nation a lot of them
2:39.9
2:44.9
know Colin frame I’m sure there’s a few
out there that don’t know who Colin is
2:44.9
2:49.5
so tell us a little bit about Colin
frame okay well I shall never see 70
2:49.5
2:55.5
again I suppose there’s the start and
I’ve been in the business now of 55 56
2:55.5
3:00.7
years something like that and continue
to enjoy it every day and what I really
3:00.7
3:05.1
enjoy are the challenges that come up
every day the problems that need solving
3:05.1
3:12.2
the people that could do with some help
and assistance the the sheer range of of
3:12.2
3:16.8
problems and activities where water is
involved one way or another but also
3:16.8
3:20.2
even if you think about oil and gas
business and you think well it’s
3:20.2
3:24.3
primarily the the oil that we’re
interested in well even that has massive
3:24.3
3:30.3
water problems and so is is very
interesting and I’ve got to the stage I
3:30.3
3:36.5
guess where even though I’m a paid
consultant and my hourly rate is pretty
3:36.5
3:41.4
high the interest in the job outweighs
the money that I get and so I’m always
3:41.4
3:45.1
keen to take on jobs even if they don’t
necessarily pay a lot if it’s a really
3:45.1
3:51.5
interesting project or a problem to
solve wherever it is and it might be 15
3:51.5
3:57.6
or 18 thousand feet below ground in a
South African gold mine or it might be
3:57.6
4:02.9
ten thousand feet in the air in a
Peruvian copper mine there’s some of the
4:02.9
4:07.3
things I’ve done and and some of the
stuff it takes hours and hours and days
4:07.3
4:11.2
and days you might even take 24 hours to
go from home to wherever the location is
4:11.2
4:15.7
and once you got there there is no
five-star hotels you know but but simply
4:15.7
4:20.4
solving problems is really good really
interesting I can’t remember who said it
4:20.4
4:23.0
but if you do what you love you never
work a day in your life
4:23.0
4:27.2
well in which case I’ve never worked you
know I talked to water treaters and some
4:27.2
4:30.9
of them don’t feel like they enjoy their
job find something else right because
4:30.9
4:35.6
you’re proof that you can love water
treatment and if you don’t find
4:35.6
4:39.1
something else is something else
yeah there’s there is there
4:39.1
4:44.1
no shortage of problems to be solved
you’ve got to get out there and and
4:44.1
4:50.9
solve them and part of the solution is
really really understanding this
4:50.9
4:56.1
business that we’re in if you take it
from the view of I’ve got four service
4:56.1
4:59.8
calls to do today and when it’s done
that I’m finished until tomorrow you’re
4:59.8
5:03.0
never going to be able to learn anything
and there are plenty of people I know
5:03.0
5:05.9
they’ve been in the business a dozen
years and I’ve got a dozen years
5:05.9
5:10.1
experience except they don’t they have
one years experience repeated a dozen
5:10.1
5:13.2
times
you’ve got to expose yourself to fresh
5:13.2
5:17.3
challenges and part of that means that
you’ve got to continue learning you’ve
5:17.3
5:21.1
got to read AWT books you’ve got to read
the literature you’ve got to expand your
5:21.1
5:25.1
mind
my current bedtime reading is advanced
5:25.1
5:30.0
biochemistry and it may sound dead but
it’s dead interesting it’s really really
5:30.0
5:35.2
interesting you know and it’s not that
far away from what we currently do in in
5:35.2
5:40.4
water treatment and I suspect that as
the the science continues to grow and
5:40.4
5:44.7
expand and we get involved in new things
actually having a qualification in
5:44.7
5:50.5
biochemistry can be a big help to water
treatise so lots of things to do lots of
5:50.5
5:56.0
interest absolutely Colin I’m curious
how did you get involved
5:56.0
6:00.9
all right so you know that I’m English
originally I’ve gathered that right I
6:00.9
6:03.8
tell I tried to tell people it’s a
Georgia accent but they don’t really
6:03.8
6:09.9
believe me so so I’m English I was born
just after the Second World War and and
6:09.9
6:15.1
if you knew especially London or
Manchester in those days they were big
6:15.1
6:19.0
bomb sites everything was a mess there
was no money we had a lease lend
6:19.0
6:23.2
arrangement with the USA we owed
billions of dollars that we had to pay
6:23.2
6:28.3
back so there was nothing our food was
rationed you know I think my mother
6:28.3
6:32.2
could get four eggs a month that sort of
stuff and meat was very difficult to
6:32.2
6:36.7
come by so it was tough so when I grew
up it was it was tough it wasn’t that
6:36.7
6:41.4
that we never went without food good
because we didn’t we always lived in a
6:41.4
6:45.9
decent property they were obviously
rented in fact we actually lived in an
6:45.9
6:50.9
American manufactured prefab for some
years I’m not sure that they would go
6:50.9
6:54.5
down well these days because I’m pretty
sure that most of the exterior walls
6:54.5
7:01.0
were made of asbestos but we grew up
that but when I got to the age of 16 and
7:01.0
7:04.8
I was in in what was called a Grammar
School so a high school at the age of 16
7:04.8
7:09.2
my father said son there’s no money in
the house you need to leave school and
7:09.2
7:13.1
get yourself a job and I’ve decided that
you’re going to be a chemical engineer
7:13.1
7:17.5
you have a job interview at Ford Motor
Company tomorrow morning 8 o’clock do
7:17.5
7:19.7
not come home if you lose it there you
go
7:19.7
7:24.4
and so I you know quite frankly I didn’t
at that age didn’t even know how to open
7:24.4
7:32.3
a bank account so I took a double decker
red bus to to Dagenham which is part of
7:32.3
7:38.3
London on the River Thames and went for
for an interview and I found out that
7:38.3
7:44.9
they were offering three jobs as
apprentice chemists or chemical
7:44.9
7:50.4
engineers I got offered one of those in
20 minutes I’m not sure it was because I
7:50.4
7:53.6
knew anything it was just maybe the guy
wanted his own cup of coffee and was
7:53.6
7:59.2
clean you know glad to get rid of me but
I I got a job in 20 minutes and then I
7:59.2
8:04.6
was told to report back on Monday
boarding at eight o’clock to a power
8:04.6
8:09.8
utility plan and it was Ford Motor
Company Dagenham x’ power utility plan
8:09.8
8:15.1
and at that time they the number of
people vary but it was generally between
8:15.1
8:22.2
50 and 60,000 employees on one location
now the location was about 10 miles long
8:22.2
8:26.7
and five miles wide on the river and
because you had all these engine plants
8:26.7
8:31.6
and foundries and and what’s called MSBs
metal stamping body division and paint
8:31.6
8:36.2
trim and assembly buildings they had to
have their own power station and so I
8:36.2
8:40.0
reported there and I’d know obviously
never been inside a power station before
8:40.0
8:47.0
and I went up to to the laboratory and
the chief chemist was doing the
8:47.0
8:51.4
Telegraph crossword looked up at me and
said so you’re the young lad that’s come
8:51.4
8:57.0
for for a job yes he said okay so you’re
gonna be doing lots and lots of
8:57.0
9:01.9
different kinds of analysis and so look
at a one window what do you see so I
9:01.9
9:06.5
said well there’s a whole bunch of
locomotive steam locomotives he said yes
9:06.5
9:09.3
he said they’re the stockyard
locomotives she said you’re looking
9:09.3
9:14.3
after the water treatment on every one
of those oh so he said so look out of
9:14.3
9:18.9
another window what can you see I said I
can see a big pile of coal he said yes
9:18.9
9:23.6
he said we used pulverized coal fuel in
our high-pressure boilers and you’re
9:23.6
9:28.1
gonna be looking after the quality and
quantity of the pulverized fuel so
9:28.1
9:31.4
you’ll be doing sieve analyses and
things like they said so you’re gonna be
9:31.4
9:35.2
like black with coal dust every single
week when you do that who way to love
9:35.2
9:39.8
that yeah who would love that so so then
I had some other things to look at which
9:39.8
9:44.9
included the lime soda softener and then
a Kennecott ion exchange plant and I
9:44.9
9:50.6
obviously I knew nothing about that and
when I started the following morning in
9:50.6
9:56.5
the laboratory then I was doing oxygen
tests we had no oxygen meters had not
9:56.5
10:01.6
been invented in those days and so the
sampler used to go in with stainless
10:01.6
10:06.9
steel pots and take maybe 20 25 samples
and then I had to do oxygen test so I
10:06.9
10:13.6
had to be proficient in doing a wet
laboratory analysis it was a modified
10:13.6
10:18.5
vinkor test and i used to be able to do
within a short time he should be able to
10:18.5
10:25.9
do maybe 25 water samples for color
change for walk for oxygen analysis in
10:25.9
10:30.0
under about three minutes because you
had to be fast otherwise oxygen would
10:30.0
10:37.1
disappear and then I used to do bomb
calorific work on on the quality of the
10:37.1
10:42.4
coal the BTUs of the coal steaming coal
and then I used to do deposit analyses
10:42.4
10:46.4
for maybe 20 different metals and
everything was gravimetric because
10:46.4
10:51.8
nobody had invented ICP or anything like
that in those days even doing things
10:51.8
10:57.9
like conductivity the the conductivity
meter weighed 30 pounds and it was made
10:57.9
11:03.2
of wood and you actually had to wind up
the the machine first of all to get an
11:03.2
11:08.4
electrical charge before you did your
conductivity so things have changed in
11:08.4
11:13.8
50 odd years but that was that was how I
started so I worked for those guys four
11:13.8
11:19.2
and a half days a week at Ford Motor
Company and then one full day and two
11:19.2
11:24.1
evenings I went to university in those
days it was called a polytechnic but it
11:24.1
11:30.5
became North London University and so I
worked like six days a week and I would
11:30.5
11:34.7
work the hours that the shift workers
would be which would be anywhere between
11:34.7
11:39.4
eight and twelve hours a day and so in
winter in a foundry for example he never
11:39.4
11:43.4
saw daylight until the weekends and I
never got paid much money I like five
11:43.4
11:48.8
dollars a week but there was no cottage
debt or anything like that I when I was
11:48.8
11:52.9
22 I got my first degree bachelor’s the
equivalent Bachelor of Science
11:52.9
12:00.0
equivalent and by then I had worked in
the power plant the sintering plant on
12:00.0
12:06.4
ships metal stamping body division paint
trim assembly will plant foundry Forge
12:06.4
12:13.2
pig iron plants steel plant byproducts
plant what else that had done a whole
12:13.2
12:16.8
bunch of other stuff in several
countries as well and then from there I
12:16.8
12:20.4
got a promotion but I was doing a
master’s degree and then I got a
12:20.4
12:26.0
promotion and I went to the European
research and development center of Ford
12:26.0
12:31.5
Motor Company and I became their
in-house chemistry and microbiology
12:31.5
12:36.3
consultant and so I used to have to go
and fix problems all around
12:36.3
12:40.2
or motor company I had never had my own
money to spend I would spend the plant
12:40.2
12:43.8
managers budget and but he would phone
and say we have big problems with
12:43.8
12:49.1
cooling towers or boilers or something
going wrong closed loops that were
12:49.1
12:54.8
scaled up because they were using
silicate rock as a closed-loop chemistry
12:54.8
12:59.4
as he used to spend other people’s money
to be able to do that and that meant
12:59.4
13:06.5
that I got to see Nalco and Dearborn and
betts and Drew and those guys and I had
13:06.5
13:11.0
authorities to spend money with those
people but it wasn’t my money and I
13:11.0
13:18.2
remember the day that bits came into the
you cave and they took like the top 100
13:18.2
13:22.4
potential customers I guess and I was
one of them because I represented Ford’s
13:22.4
13:27.2
and we went to a five-star hotel in
stratford-on-avon and I got a bits
13:27.2
13:31.4
handbook and I thought the world can’t
get much better than this in water
13:31.4
13:36.4
treatment and that was a long time ago
so after Ford where did you go then Oh
13:36.4
13:42.8
after Ford I after about nine and a half
years I realized that I would not get
13:42.8
13:47.4
any significant promotion at four
because I was a chemist and a chemical
13:47.4
13:51.9
engineer but I was not an auto engineer
and you needed to be an automobile
13:51.9
13:57.2
engineer to be able to to move on so I
decided I would leave and I got a job as
13:57.2
14:02.1
chief chemist of an environmental
services business and I spent half of my
14:02.1
14:08.5
time looking at problems like PCB
contamination of quarry’s and cows dying
14:08.5
14:14.0
that was in Wales and then I’d go over
to Europe and I would look at industrial
14:14.0
14:18.4
canals that would change color every
couple of kilometers and then you having
14:18.4
14:23.0
to do Bo DS and co DS and analysis and
then work with laboratories to show them
14:23.0
14:27.3
how to do the sampling and the testing
and stuff like that and and that went on
14:27.3
14:33.3
for a couple of years and then one day I
got a call in fact a visit from from a
14:33.3
14:38.9
regional manager of ciba-geigy which
later metamorphosized into bwa but in
14:38.9
14:43.3
those days was not only an innovator in
chemistries but it also a service
14:43.3
14:49.3
company and the guy said Colin how would
you like to have a new car every single
14:49.3
14:52.6
year
a similar sounds fantastic what do I
14:52.6
14:58.0
have to do he said sell go sell so I
became a Salesman a water-treatment
14:58.0
15:04.3
technician and technologist and sold and
somehow or another within the first 12
15:04.3
15:09.8
months I became the top salesman it was
mainly because I took on a big steel
15:09.8
15:14.4
plant that was outside my territory but
obviously I knew how to run steel plants
15:14.4
15:19.6
and so that that helped with significant
volumes and the result of that was that
15:19.6
15:25.9
I got a promotion and then I became
country manager and so I said okay well
15:25.9
15:29.1
this sounds very good there’s more money
and it’s a better job country manager
15:29.1
15:35.1
which country and and it was Iran so I
went to live in Iran and you know I
15:35.1
15:41.1
speak pretty good persian farsi and and
then when the whole world blew up with
15:41.1
15:47.3
the revolution and and and my family was
not safe anymore i couldn’t travel
15:47.3
15:51.8
unless i travel with them and then there
was shooting and hangings in the street
15:51.8
15:55.4
and stuff like that it was time to leave
and so we left at the time the kamini
15:55.4
15:59.8
came in but i’ve been back to iran since
us I love the country and then came back
15:59.8
16:03.5
for a while and I then I was from there
I was working in Scotland and Ireland
16:03.5
16:07.5
and in northern France and then I got
asked to go to South Africa and I’d
16:07.5
16:12.6
lived it was there for years then I was
in Abu Dhabi and Singapore and several
16:12.6
16:19.1
other places and so quite frankly it was
from from the day that I went to Iran
16:19.1
16:23.9
mid-seventies was the day I then became
an international water treater and
16:23.9
16:28.7
that’s what I’ve been doing for the last
goodness knows how many years since then
16:28.7
16:33.3
and still do it today
and still love the business as much as I
16:33.3
16:38.2
did from the beginning again more
evidence if you love what you do you
16:38.2
16:42.1
don’t work a day in your life yeah now
I’m not sure I love sitting on a plane
16:42.1
16:47.7
for 17 hours but sometimes that’s what
you have to do to to do the job you know
16:47.7
16:53.4
I was in in southern Africa twice last
year and that’s 17 hours each way you
16:53.4
16:57.9
got a China you got a you know you fight
is Chicago we fly to Hong Kong and then
16:57.9
17:02.0
you change and the same thing from from
leaving your house to get into the hotel
17:02.0
17:05.4
is 24 hours and
I don’t think any of that stuff has got
17:05.4
17:10.1
any better at all but at the other end
you have people who are interested in
17:10.1
17:14.5
you because you hold a key to be able to
solve a problem and that’s where I think
17:14.5
17:18.6
I’d come back to something that we
discussed earlier and that is you have
17:18.6
17:24.9
to keep learning in this business there
is so much to learn and none of us are
17:24.9
17:28.8
ever going to be true masters now you
know I’m I’m a fellow of the Royal
17:28.8
17:35.1
Institution of chemistry and I got my
name in the Queen’s diary in The Times
17:35.1
17:40.0
of London to say that I’d been approved
as a as a fellow so I’m pretty good
17:40.0
17:45.7
chemist and I could probably tell you
more than you ever wanted to know about
17:45.7
17:52.8
maybe I don’t know 250,000 chemicals but
I’m 72 and there’s a hundred million
17:52.8
17:57.0
chemicals so the chance that I’m ever
going to know anything really about that
17:57.0
18:02.4
is limited so I say again part of this
part of this talk I think is for me to
18:02.4
18:07.4
reinforce that you’ve got to enjoy this
business but to enjoy it you’ve got to
18:07.4
18:11.7
keep learning and the more you learn and
knowing the the nature of our business
18:11.7
18:16.7
where everybody ever eventually gets to
know everybody else if they know and
18:16.7
18:20.4
respect you for who you are and what you
can do and what you bring to the table
18:20.4
18:24.3
whether it’s in strategic analysis or
whether it’s in technical problem
18:24.3
18:27.6
solving you’re gonna get a better job
you’re going to enjoy yourself I don’t
18:27.6
18:31.8
know about the money but but it’s the
enjoyment in the job is the key thing I
18:31.8
18:35.6
think that’s great advice I know there
are a lot of people listening some are
18:35.6
18:41.0
very seasoned water treaters some just
started what are some resources that you
18:41.0
18:44.5
can recommend for the water figure out
there that does want to learn more well
18:44.5
18:49.2
I think you’ve got to do stuff on your
own I can recommend a whole bunch of
18:49.2
18:55.2
books and quite frankly the AWT has a
wide range of books on offer and even if
18:55.2
18:58.9
you think that one or two of them are
not particularly within your direct
18:58.9
19:02.2
sphere what you’ve got to do is to say
what am I going to be doing in five
19:02.2
19:06.1
years time if it’s the same darn job
you’re not going to enjoy it but it but
19:06.1
19:09.9
if you’ve got some aspirations you need
to learn a wider spectrum of things and
19:09.9
19:16.2
you can you can get some books from the
AWT but in addition to that think of a
19:16.2
19:19.9
subject and check it
because you’ll find it on Wikipedia you
19:19.9
19:24.0
know you want to know about you know
biochemistry you want to know about oil
19:24.0
19:27.7
and gas you want to know about food and
beverage you want to know some very
19:27.7
19:35.4
specific subject there’s something for
you in Wikipedia on the internet look it
19:35.4
19:40.1
up learn it the more you learn the more
you absorb the more valuable you’re
19:40.1
19:43.3
going to be and for most people in this
business
19:43.3
19:48.1
most of us working for a water treatment
services company or a supplier or
19:48.1
19:53.8
something really our job is to be a cash
generator if the company doesn’t grow no
19:53.8
19:58.6
one does well so your job is to be a
cash generator and you can generally
19:58.6
20:03.0
generate more cash if you know more if
you’re more experienced if you’ve got
20:03.0
20:08.7
more knowledge if you can speak about a
couple of specific jobs and if you can
20:08.7
20:13.4
turn the experiences that you’ve got
into how to problem solve some future
20:13.4
20:18.7
problem down the line you’re going to be
really successful I know you speak a lot
20:18.7
20:25.2
on this when you did the sales training
for hey WT and you would say that each
20:25.2
20:30.6
salesperson had a minimum amount of
revenue that they had to bring in or
20:30.6
20:36.1
they were costing the company money can
you speak a little towards that yeah as
20:36.1
20:41.1
I’ve said all of the water treatment
companies and the suppliers all have a
20:41.1
20:46.6
common objective one is that the company
continues to exist the second is that it
20:46.6
20:51.1
has to be profitable and the only way it
could be profitable is either to sell
20:51.1
20:56.4
chemicals to somebody else at a decent
markup on their quality or you’ve got to
20:56.4
21:01.8
provide some other form of equipment or
service but all of them ultimately
21:01.8
21:06.6
results in cash generation and that’s
why when we’re we’re looking at a
21:06.6
21:11.2
water-treatment territory and perhaps
we’re trying to sell into that it’s no
21:11.2
21:15.1
point just going after the million
dollar jobs because they might take
21:15.1
21:19.1
three or four years to bring in there’s
no point going after the thousand dollar
21:19.1
21:22.9
jobs because you can bring Lots in but
they don’t bring much money so you have
21:22.9
21:27.9
to have a balance of smaller jobs
medium-sized jobs and larger jobs for
21:27.9
21:34.3
the long term and and develop those
but you you quickly get known whether
21:34.3
21:38.8
you are really good at your job whether
you really know something with your keen
21:38.8
21:42.3
whether you’re interested it’s like
going for a job interview hello is that
21:42.3
21:46.5
job interview last 45 minutes perhaps
something like that how long does it
21:46.5
21:50.6
take for the interviewer to make a mind
up hour whether you’re potentially
21:50.6
21:55.6
hireable less than three minutes so if
he takes three minutes to decide that
21:55.6
22:00.0
you’re the person that’s required the
other 42 minutes is essentially used to
22:00.0
22:05.4
justify their original conclusion but
equally if you’re no good they’d all be
22:05.4
22:08.8
sold you know I can identify that very
quickly as well
22:08.8
22:14.2
so you have to keep learning one way or
another and the more you learn and the
22:14.2
22:20.5
more you push yourself to learn and the
more you push yourself to to go onto a
22:20.5
22:24.8
new job to be taken out where there is a
real problem maybe even if it’s just a
22:24.8
22:29.0
junior and you go out with a senior
person you’ll learn from every single
22:29.0
22:33.1
experience and ultimately all of that
gets stored in your brain and it will
22:33.1
22:36.5
come out at the right time
when you have to solve problems yourself
22:36.5
22:42.9
and customers aren’t really always that
interested in saving money that we all
22:42.9
22:47.1
know they say that but what they really
want is an easy time they don’t want
22:47.1
22:50.6
problems they don’t want the production
to suddenly shut down they don’t want
22:50.6
22:54.8
unexpected health and safety problems
they want an easy time and if you can
22:54.8
22:59.9
help them get an easy time because of
what you know how you work what you
22:59.9
23:04.5
bring to the table you’re going to enjoy
the job your customers gonna love you
23:04.5
23:08.6
and everybody’s gonna make money which
is the objective in the first place
23:08.6
23:15.1
let’s shift gears just a little bit we
have both said the acronym AWT at least
23:15.1
23:19.8
half a dozen times so how did you get
involved with the Association of Water
23:19.8
23:22.4
Technologies and why do you still stay
involved
23:22.4
23:27.9
okay so I’ve spent more than half my
life overseas probably three-quarters of
23:27.9
23:33.6
my life living in different countries
overseas and the AWT does not exist
23:33.6
23:37.7
anywhere else
there’s a couple of countries where
23:37.7
23:42.4
there is some decent organizations so
for example in the UK there is
23:42.4
23:48.9
a Water Management Society which is
similar to a WT or their as a slightly
23:48.9
23:54.5
different format but it does do lots and
lots of regular teaching as as a
23:54.5
24:01.3
mechanism to enhance the membership I’ve
worked for lots of big companies and in
24:01.3
24:08.5
general even when I worked for service
companies they were too big to either
24:08.5
24:13.5
become an AW team member as as a water
treatment company or they considered
24:13.5
24:19.2
themselves too big and so I never really
got involved and I’d been in living in
24:19.2
24:27.2
the USA for probably six years I guess
and knew of the AWT but the reality is
24:27.2
24:32.4
they don’t really know very much until
it was suggested to me in New York City
24:32.4
24:38.1
that maybe I could help and do some some
lectures and so I was put in touch with
24:38.1
24:44.4
my new boss Bruce Catterick and Bruce
said yeah in this gruff voice yeah I’m
24:44.4
24:48.3
sure you can be useful you can help us
and do some lecturing and I think it was
24:48.3
24:53.8
1989 it might have been 1919 it was in
New Jersey and from that day since I’ve
24:53.8
25:00.2
never stopped lecturing and I’ve enjoyed
myself every day since meeting all the
25:00.2
25:04.4
different people in all the different
parts of the country and now more and
25:04.4
25:09.3
more international and the things that
we do and the professionalism that we
25:09.3
25:15.4
have what we bring to the table I now
know is the envy of everybody I speak to
25:15.4
25:21.7
in other parts of the world we just wish
there was an AWT in Africa or an AWT in
25:21.7
25:27.0
South America or an AWT in Southeast
Asia but they don’t exist this has taken
25:27.0
25:33.3
nearly 30 years to bring to the position
that it’s now in but it it I’m not
25:33.3
25:37.7
necessarily sure it’s the voice of all
the people but it’s it must be one of
25:37.7
25:44.2
the most preeminent water industry
associations if not associations of any
25:44.2
25:48.5
description and the way that it works
the things that it does the Brotherhood
25:48.5
25:52.8
and sisterhood that it has is just
marvelous that everyone is prepared to
25:52.8
25:57.7
spend
time and money and an assistance kinds
25:57.7
26:01.2
assistance in helping other people I
think is great and it’s been overall
26:01.2
26:04.6
it’s been a wonderful thing for the
water industry and for me personally
26:04.6
26:09.4
it’s been great meeting all these
different people including you that’s
26:09.4
26:14.5
right yeah it’s been really really
wonderful I want to say it was 97 when
26:14.5
26:18.7
you and I met and it was at an AWT
technical training and we were
26:18.7
26:23.2
discussing before this recording the
technical training we have today is far
26:23.2
26:29.1
different than what it was back in 97
yes but if I recall that was when you
26:29.1
26:33.9
just came out with your boiler water
books and your cooling water books
26:33.9
26:37.1
yeah a year or so after that I think I
began to come out with those yeah the
26:37.1
26:41.6
cooling water came first and then the
boiler waters came after that yes are
26:41.6
26:45.7
those still getting produced I get I’ve
had a check for 20 years well there you
26:45.7
26:50.1
go I get a little check every single
year at the end of the year from the
26:50.1
26:54.4
publisher and shows me all of the sales
and so there’s the boiler books and the
26:54.4
26:57.4
cooling water books and then there’s the
little handbooks that go with it and
26:57.4
27:00.8
then I is another book I wrote actually
but he got published in Thailand and
27:00.8
27:04.8
that was because I was working in
Southeast Asia for many many years and
27:04.8
27:10.0
and that was good that was me lecturing
and I tell you what after a while you
27:10.0
27:17.0
get fed up with my Brit accent you know
and but the poor souls in Southeast Asia
27:17.0
27:22.9
they have to suffer me for eight hours a
day so that’s for two hour lectures
27:22.9
27:29.8
every day they then have to suffer me
for five days so 20 lectures each of two
27:29.8
27:38.1
hours I give and we probably have an 80
90 students with 14 or 15 languages and
27:38.1
27:43.1
obviously I am useless at Cambodian and
Vietnamese and Thai and Malay and
27:43.1
27:48.0
Indonesian and stuff like that but he’s
wonderful the people will come and they
27:48.0
27:53.1
all have the same problems that we see
in the exchange forum they have the same
27:53.1
27:57.2
problems that we discuss every single
day it’s not as if what we have in
27:57.2
28:00.7
America is any any different the
problems that we have the ways that we
28:00.7
28:06.2
have to solve it that need to to know to
create cash or to conserve it’s the same
28:06.2
28:10.6
all
the world but unfortunately they don’t
28:10.6
28:15.4
have an aw T which is why I’m really
really pleased to see that every single
28:15.4
28:20.3
year every edition of the handbook that
comes out there are more and more
28:20.3
28:27.7
Australian and Southeast Asian and South
American companies and personally it’s
28:27.7
28:33.7
good because I get jobs we saw you in
the AWT we thought we’d found you can
28:33.7
28:37.7
you come to Australia and fix this for
us well sure if there’s some money and
28:37.7
28:41.5
it will do that if there isn’t well
maybe you’ll still come anyway there you
28:41.5
28:44.9
go
as seen at the AWT I’ve seen at the AWC
28:44.9
28:48.9
exactly yeah we’ll call it I want to
divert your attention over to my
28:48.9
28:52.4
bookcase if you see on the second shelf
up right in the middle there are your
28:52.4
28:56.8
books right there Wow did you pay for
them I actually paid for them when they
28:56.8
29:01.8
first came out with the AWT and I got
you to sign right and then when I left
29:01.8
29:07.1
that company they kept those books so
those are unsigned copies but I had one
29:07.1
29:11.8
of your original versions that you had
out and they were signed and I think you
29:11.8
29:16.3
told me something in the signature about
having bookworm itis well I can sign the
29:16.3
29:18.7
McGuiness abdullah there you go there
you go
29:18.7
29:24.4
I’ll see what I have alright wallet so
with a WT there might be some listeners
29:24.4
29:29.0
out there that are not familiar I don’t
think you can be a listener of the show
29:29.0
29:34.5
and not be familiar with a WT but you
had said that you have to learn everyday
29:34.5
29:38.3
when you’re a water treat or would you
say that being a member of an
29:38.3
29:43.3
organization like that makes that task
easier yes it does because you don’t
29:43.3
29:48.5
always have to do everything on your own
and just look at the size of the USA
29:48.5
29:53.3
it’s not one country I don’t know how
many is it’s probably not fifty but it’s
29:53.3
29:58.3
at least six or seven or eight different
countries in terms of the the geography
29:58.3
30:04.4
and the people and the kinds of industry
that we have and every one of those
30:04.4
30:09.2
presents different kinds of problems
we’re here in the southeast they’ve got
30:09.2
30:12.6
they’ve got boilers and coolers up in
the southwest but it’s a totally
30:12.6
30:18.2
different scope of work that has to be
done to solve them
30:18.2
30:22.8
this is very different the Northeast up
in Philadelphia and New York is very
30:22.8
30:27.3
different and just by meeting these
people we learn about the problems they
30:27.3
30:31.5
have and how they go about solving them
and and a good thing I think about the
30:31.5
30:37.8
water industry is it doesn’t matter what
the problem is that the customer has
30:37.8
30:42.2
there’s at least four or five or six
different ways to solve it so if you can
30:42.2
30:45.9
understand the different ways and maybe
you might pick those up from speaking to
30:45.9
30:50.6
other people and AWT train you or
convention you add that to your own
30:50.6
30:55.3
arsenal you become stronger there isn’t
just way to solve anything do you want
30:55.3
30:59.2
to solve it with a maximum equipment
with the maximum chemistry with the
30:59.2
31:03.6
minimum hands-on with the maximum amount
of a rolls-royce solution rather than a
31:03.6
31:07.2
Chevrolet solution there’s lots of
different ways and you can pick all that
31:07.2
31:12.4
up by talking to other people and
learning from them and most people at
31:12.4
31:17.7
the AWT quite frankly are just like me
we love to talk so if you ask the right
31:17.7
31:22.2
questions you’re gonna get all sorts of
free information from those people well
31:22.2
31:26.4
let’s talk a little bit about that
because AWT recently replaced the
31:26.4
31:30.8
listserv where you could send an email
in and blast it out to everybody who
31:30.8
31:34.5
signed up for it with the exchange form
you and I had a dialogue before we
31:34.5
31:39.3
started recording about the exchange
forum do you mind telling the Scaling UP!
31:39.3
31:45.0
nation what that is and why it’s a
benefit the exchange forum is
31:45.0
31:51.2
essentially a marketplace where people
can go for information nobody has the or
31:51.2
31:55.6
even an old guy like me doesn’t have it
all or I’ve probably got more than most
31:55.6
31:59.7
simply because of the number of years
I’ve been in it but all the time people
31:59.7
32:04.4
are coming up against problems that need
solving they go and see a new prospect
32:04.4
32:08.6
or they have an existing customer that
develops a different kind of a problem
32:08.6
32:14.2
and the water treater whoever is on site
whether it’s the boss of the overall
32:14.2
32:18.9
business whether it’s the technologist
whereas the technician they’re seen to
32:18.9
32:22.2
be the person that is going to solve the
problem
32:22.2
32:27.9
they’re the water doctor and we don’t
all have all the answers there and then
32:27.9
32:34.5
so if we don’t ask somebody so we
right on the exchange problem what our
32:34.5
32:40.9
problem is hopefully give some basic
information about the size and the scale
32:40.9
32:43.9
of the problem we’re not going to give
you the customers but where it’s located
32:43.9
32:49.2
and some fundamentals or maybe a little
bit of water analysis and then say this
32:49.2
32:54.0
is my problem this is some base
information can anybody out there help
32:54.0
32:59.6
me solve it or give me some ideas some
direction and and everybody is willing
32:59.6
33:04.7
to help everybody is willing to pitch in
and give it an opinion give some ideas
33:04.7
33:10.9
and and very often they’re absolutely on
the mark now if I was to criticize it I
33:10.9
33:14.1
would say that some of the people that
writing don’t give sufficient base
33:14.1
33:17.3
information can you solve the problem
for me well there’s five different
33:17.3
33:21.4
solutions which one would you like and
and I can’t always give you all the
33:21.4
33:25.4
solution in fact I don’t want to give
all the solutions but I’m very happy to
33:25.4
33:29.7
give a direction to the people that
write in and say have you tried this
33:29.7
33:35.5
have you tried that go down this route
and then let those people explore those
33:35.5
33:39.4
potential solutions because if you get
them all the answers there’s nothing
33:39.4
33:43.9
else for them is better that you give
them a direction and then let them find
33:43.9
33:48.1
out for themselves and then implement
that and that process works very well
33:48.1
33:53.9
and so I love just going on the exchange
forum and just looking I don’t always
33:53.9
33:58.2
respond and I think no you should know
that you know your CWC you should know
33:58.2
34:02.9
that but if they don’t well sometimes
I’ll give them a help sometimes I’ll
34:02.9
34:06.8
even talk to them privately and say look
this is my advice this is where to go
34:06.8
34:13.6
and it’s good but for me quite honestly
it was a another I open of the AWT is
34:13.6
34:18.7
absolutely full of its of exciting
things and I think I know a bit but I
34:18.7
34:22.3
don’t know them all so just coming on
the exchange forum and having a look and
34:22.3
34:25.8
see what questions people ask to and
what the solutions are directions they
34:25.8
34:32.3
can he all adds to the overall AWT water
treatment experience and that’s what I’m
34:32.3
34:36.3
here for I’m not really here for the
money I’m here for the experience and
34:36.3
34:41.0
the good time that I get because I can
provide some help or help others in in
34:41.0
34:45.0
problem solving you mentioned a
certified water technologist designation
34:45.0
34:51.2
has that been recognized when you work
overseas if I explain what it is
34:51.2
34:57.0
and I think that when I do this the
first thing I say is hey guys you need
34:57.0
35:02.4
to actually go and have a look at the
Association of water technologists web
35:02.4
35:07.9
pages see for yourself what it’s about
if you become a member for me one of the
35:07.9
35:12.1
real benefits of being the member is
that you actually get access to the
35:12.1
35:18.1
library of 25 or 26 years worth of of
analyst and all of the technical papers
35:18.1
35:21.5
that’s in there but you can’t get access
to that until you pay your money
35:21.5
35:26.7
now the AWT has become so good the
training has become so good they’ve been
35:26.7
35:32.6
able to put together an examination and
it’s a pretty tough examination and it’s
35:32.6
35:38.6
called the certified water technologist
now what I can tell you is it is a
35:38.6
35:45.1
legally defensible qualification and
that says everything to me in terms of
35:45.1
35:50.8
the quality of the CWG exam if I can
stand before a judge and say you know I
35:50.8
35:55.8
am a CWT and that meant that I had to
have you know a real extensive knowledge
35:55.8
36:00.6
of the business I had to serve a minimum
amount of time I had to demonstrate it I
36:00.6
36:05.4
had to give verification and validation
that was checked up on before I was
36:05.4
36:11.5
awarded a CWT it will tell you it’s a
valuable asset and I’m still not sure
36:11.5
36:16.7
that customers always understand what
it’s about but the fact that it’s
36:16.7
36:21.1
legally defensible and it’s from an
organization where the webpages are
36:21.1
36:27.4
really pretty good and the analysts and
the articles are superb is great well
36:27.4
36:31.8
Colin you’ve corrected me several times
on my pronunciation of certain words on
36:31.8
36:36.2
a story you say laboratory at exactly
where I was going is really a laboratory
36:36.2
36:40.4
of course you know and and the fact that
you take the eye out of aluminium well I
36:40.4
36:44.2
can’t stand that but and I’m trying to
think of some other words maybe schedule
36:44.2
36:49.8
more scheduled you know this is fine but
the thing about American English is that
36:49.8
36:54.1
you want to kind of make the words as
concise as possible is if you actually
36:54.1
36:57.9
don’t want to write them on the paper or
in a hurry we have to dyno yeah
36:57.9
37:02.5
naari I know I know no spot is fine well
Carlin I do a segment on this show
37:02.5
37:06.7
called the boiling point I haven’t done
it in a while but things that I see
37:06.7
37:12.1
other water treaters do that they just
shouldn’t be doing they’re either not
37:12.1
37:16.3
learning from their mistakes and they’re
continuing to repeat those or they’re
37:16.3
37:21.7
giving the rest of us a bad name so you
have an open mic what do you see
37:21.7
37:27.7
other water treaters do that you just
wish they would stop doing okay I get
37:27.7
37:33.2
involved in lawsuits I become an expert
witness in lawsuits and in fact I’ve got
37:33.2
37:38.1
one in a couple of days is it a couple
of days no it’s next week I’ve got a
37:38.1
37:43.4
I’ve got to to go and be an expert
witness at something that’s more than 40
37:43.4
37:47.6
million-dollar lawsuit and if you’ve if
you’ve ever been involved in anything
37:47.6
37:51.9
like this where the law profession gets
involved the first thing is anything
37:51.9
37:57.2
goes wrong it’s the water treaters fault
and there’s been some really excellent
37:57.2
38:02.0
articles about this
Bob Cunningham has written one and there
38:02.0
38:05.8
is a law firm that’s joined AWT and
they’ve been producing a couple of
38:05.8
38:11.9
really good documents and one of the
things they say is document everything
38:11.9
38:17.8
you do and I would say that when I get
involved in lawsuits and the lawyer
38:17.8
38:24.7
hands me boxes and boxes of documents of
original contracts of service reports of
38:24.7
38:29.8
literature that’s that’s that’s been
invoked the thing that I see more than
38:29.8
38:36.1
anything is the water treatment guy on
the job does not put enough information
38:36.1
38:41.8
down to protect himself if you see
something wrong make a note of it don’t
38:41.8
38:47.8
just advise the operator put it down
send it as an email so it’s documented
38:47.8
38:53.0
because when something goes wrong
they’re all going to look at the easiest
38:53.0
38:57.6
way to get money which is often the
water treater why because nobody
38:57.6
39:00.9
understands what water treatment is
about except the water treatment company
39:00.9
39:06.7
and so if you actually document stuff if
you have regular review meetings and you
39:06.7
39:10.3
bring all of things up and that gets
documented in some
39:10.3
39:15.7
some minutes if ever there is a big
problem and a lawsuit and I’ve got to
39:15.7
39:20.3
look at all of these documents I’ve got
something that can demonstrate that the
39:20.3
39:25.7
water treatment company is not at fault
something that I see on service reports
39:25.7
39:32.5
that I absolutely hate is everything
looks good know that you cannot do that
39:32.5
39:39.7
and quite frankly if everything looks
good your job is to explore a bit wider
39:39.7
39:44.4
and maybe look at something that’s not
necessarily directly within your own
39:44.4
39:49.1
province if you can find other things
and help to find ways to solve those
39:49.1
39:55.1
then the chances are that you’re going
to keep the job longer make it more
39:55.1
40:00.7
profitable but when you keep writing a
service report that says everything is
40:00.7
40:07.7
ok the client begins to think why do I
need you why am i spending money if
40:07.7
40:14.5
everything is okay so make sure
everything is not okay make sure that
40:14.5
40:19.4
you’ve explored other areas other venues
other parts of the business and you
40:19.4
40:26.8
become a valuable resource to your
client one nation colin is such a great
40:26.8
40:31.8
guest he’s got so much to share we are
not going to be able to do it all in
40:31.8
40:39.5
just one episode so please join me back
next week for the conclusion of my
40:39.5
40:46.5
interview with Colin frame talk to you
next week folks