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well hello scaling up nation trace
blackmore here and today’s show is going
to be a little bit
different different and i didn’t
announce us the way we normally start
out just to let you know that today’s
show is going to be a little bit
different by the way welcome to the
water treaters favorite podcast scaling
up h2o as i said my name is trace
blackmore i get the privilege of hosting
this podcast and nation this is episode
207
so
many episodes since we started
i always worry that i’m going to run out
of things to talk about and in doing so
i receive a lot of information from you
all about
re-talking about
the things that i already have talked
about so we’re going to take advantage
of that today but before we do i want to
let you know of a couple things that are
going on so this week
several of you have attended the ashy
annual conference in nashville there’s a
virtual option and there was an
in-person option that’s going on right
now
so i am curious go ahead and hashtag
scaling up h2o what’s going on there
what are you learning there let us know
how it is one of the first in-person
conferences that we’ve had since
restrictions have been limited on the
pandemic so we all want to live
vicariously through you
and see what you’re learning see how
things are see how much you’ve missed
from the in-person environment and for
those of you that had taken the virtual
option i’m kind of curious do you feel
if you’re getting more information out
of the virtual option or
it just allows you not to have to travel
and still get some information i know
there’s a reason that everybody does
something and i think once we can start
to understand all the benefits of one
versus another it’ll help somebody else
make better decisions so remember
hashtag scaling up h2o get that
conversation started i’d love to see
what’s going on there another thing i
want to tell you about is the
wwa
water infrastructure conference an
in-person conference in phoenix arizona
if this is something that interests you
it’s going to be on september 12th
through 15th and we’ve got all that
information for you right on our website
we try to make it so it’s very easy for
you to go to scaling up h2o.com and find
out anything that you need to know about
the water
industry so again that’s
scalinguph2o.com
well nation
as i mentioned i alluded to this at the
top of the show
i get so many people that ask me
questions about earlier episodes so i’m
going to do something a little different
today i am going to replay one of the
very first question episodes that i ever
did on scaling up h2o this was a hundred
percent me
answering your questions it was early on
it was originally aired october 27th in
2017 so i just had a couple of episodes
under my belt at the time it was episode
24 and it was a hundred percent
answering your questions
to me as the podcast host it was one of
the coolest things that i ever did
because it was all about your questions
it meant that you were listening to the
show and you felt that there was enough
value in that show that you could write
in and ask me questions so one of my
favorites i got a lot of comments about
this episode as well so that’s why we’re
going to replay it so ladies and
gentlemen here it is episode 24.
welcome to scaling up the podcast for
water treaters by water treaters where
we’re scaling up on knowledge so we
don’t scale up our systems hi everybody
trace blackmore here and do you know
it’s been over 20 episodes since you and
i have spent some alone time together
now i’ve had some great guests on some
very entertaining guests on some very
informative guests that we’ve all
learned a lot from but i gotta tell you
i miss it just being you
and me through your listening device so
that’s what we’re going to do today i’m
going to open up the scaling up mailbag
and i have selected questions
that you’ve sent me and that’s all we’re
going to do today i’m going to answer
your questions that you’ve sent to me
and hopefully
get you the information that you’ve been
asking for so join me for an entire
episode of me our first question is can
you please tell us more about lsi rsi
and psi
sure and this comes i’m guessing i had
mentioned this on an earlier show
and i just didn’t go
deep enough so here it goes what the
heck is lsi rsi and psi
well i think it’s important to frame how
they came to be and the very first one
was lsi
lsi is the launderer stability index
and wilfred langelier in 1935 36 i think
it was
he created a way to predict if the water
was going to either precipitate calcium
carbonate
or it was going to dissolve calcium
carbonate to really get in the mindset
of why he did this this is when a lot of
infrastructure in our country was being
built and all over the world
and all of these
municipalities were having issues with
either their pipes dissolving
or the pipes were getting clogged up and
they weren’t able to get the water
to the customers to the end users and no
one knew why
so launderer figured out how can we come
up with an equation
so we can figure out what’s going on
with this and that’s exactly what he did
he figured out this equation so if
you’re driving put your hands on 10 and
2
we’re going to talk about some math for
a second but i’m going to have this
equation on my show notes page but i
want to let you know what it is
so it’s the starts off with the constant
12.3 minus the quantity of the log of
the calcium hardness
plus the log of the m alkalinity
plus
.02 times the temperature of the water
in centigrade
minus .011
times the square root of the tds so if
you put all that together
and then take 12.3 and subtract what
that equation was
you are going to get a number now that
number
is the saturation ph now what that means
it’s the ph
at which we are not dissolving calcium
carbonate and we’re not depositing
calcium carbonate
now you know well let’s go a little bit
further
then we have lsi so launder came up with
that stability i’m sorry with that
saturation equation but then he made it
a little bit simpler so us common folk
would understand exactly what it was
talking about
lsi the longier stability index is the
actual ph of the water
minus the answer to that equation that
we just did
and it’s going to give you a number
between
negative 3
and positive three
now zero
is stating that we’re neither depositing
or dissolving
calcium carbonate and anything above
zero
means that we’re going to deposit
calcium carbonate
anything below zero
we’re going to
dissolve
calcium carbonate
now notice i didn’t say
the water was either scaling or the
water was corrosive i know a lot of us
have heard that in our careers that is
not correct
all water is corrosive we call water the
universal solvent
with
water and anything else given enough
time
water will win so this is not an indices
that tells us whether we are scaling or
corroding it’s telling us if we are
either going to deposit or dissolve
calcium carbonate
then if we move up we’ve got rsi and
when i say move up i don’t mean one’s
better than the other it’s just up on my
notes page
rsi the risner stability index and then
what that is is that’s two times the
saturation ph so that long equation that
we did we’re going to multiply that by
two
and then we’re simply going to subtract
the system ph
now that scale is between 1 and 12.
6 is in the middle
anything above 6 this time
we’re going to dissolve calcium
carbonate
and anything below 6 we’re going to
start depositing calcium carbonate you
know when somebody wants their name on
something they’ve got a they’ve got to
put their own spin on it so that’s the
spin that we have
and then we have psi which stands for
either the pcorious scaling index
or the practical scaling index
now paul pecorius i hope you are a
member of the scaling up nation because
when i teach the math portion for awt
when people are getting ready to either
take their certified water technologist
test or they just want to learn some
more information
i go through math in a way that i
explain every single equation that’s up
there except for this one
so here’s what the psi says it’s two
times
the saturation ph just like rsi
but now instead of subtracting
the system ph we’re going to take the ph
of equilibrium
and this is the equation that i don’t
know where it was derived from
so it is
1.465
times the log
of the m alkalinity you get that number
and then you add 4.54
that number that you got
and
you get a number that’s between 1 and 12
just like rsi and we’re going to read it
just like rsi
the question i always get is which one
is better and i know i answered this on
a previous show but every time i talk
about this people always want to know
which one is better folks they’re all
the same
they might have a little bit of
of of urgency on how much it’s scaling
if you listen to a previous episode i do
a spot on impression of colin frayne
and he tells us that if once if lsi is
scaling then rsi is going to tell us
it’s really scaling and psi is going to
tell us it’s really really scaling so go
back to that previous episode and hear
my spot on impression of colin frayne
but that’s what he says and i like that
definition so i stole that from colin
thank you very much for that
and that is lsi rsi and psi
there are very different ways that we
can do that now if you have a
graphing calculator or scientific
calculator you can put those
numbers in there and you got to do them
in the right order and you can do this
longhand you can do it on your
calculator but most of us
are either accustomed to the 1960s
technology which is the slide rule and
if you’ve ever been to any awt function
you’ve gotten one of those slide rules
or
you might have come into this century
and downloaded an app for that and
there’s a ton of apps out there you
might have written your own excel
equation how do you write your excel
equation well you’re going to take that
formulation that i just gave you that
calculation that i get just gave you and
you’re going to plug it into excel and
then have various cells where you can
chart your information
that’s what somebody did when they
created the app and made it very easy
for you
that’s what it is i hope that makes a
little bit more sense and i hope that
you can start using either lsi rsi or
psi
to give you a better look of what’s
going on in your system
when there are no products in the system
now keep in mind it does not take an
account that you have
corrosion and scale products in there
corrosion products aren’t going to do us
much good here but we’re putting
products in there that are going to
extend the threshold of when things are
going to come out of solution and that
does not come into play in that equation
so why use it well it gives us a worser
case scenario and most people use this
for product selection
if i run the
lsi or rsi or psi on the concentrated up
water i can then see what i can expect
and then that will allow me to find a
better product in my line to handle
what’s going on with that water
this listener writes trace thanks for
all that you do
i really want to go to awt functions but
my boss is not a member
how do i get to go to these awt
functions not being a member
and how do i convince my boss to become
a member of the association of water
technologies
i got to say that’s unfortunate of being
a past president of the association of
water technologies
being involved on the educational
committee and just being a member of awt
for so many years i can’t imagine not
being a member of it and the only reason
that i can think that your boss doesn’t
see value
is because nobody sat down with him
and told him
business owner to business owner all the
great things that you get from awt
how it allows us to make our business
better because all of us are giving
information to the organization based on
mistakes that we’ve made
things that we’ve learned out in the
field that we’ve learned in business and
we’re trying to make the entire industry
better why wouldn’t you want to be a
member of that so i i don’t think the
right person has ever spoken with your
boss and by all means you know invite
them to to email me i’m happy to be an
advocate for awt
but as far as you not being able to go
to technical trainings and conventions
and things like that because you’re not
a member that’s not actually true it’s
just going to cost you more money to go
because you’re not a member so if you go
on awt.org
you can go to any of the events we’re
going to have some technical training
events coming up early next year
you are more than welcome to attend that
it’s just the non-member price
probably
will pay for your membership so you
might be able to get him to decide it’s
a good idea for that
awt.org
will get you to the website and then as
far as the tabs up top the very first
one is membership it will tell you the
benefits of membership
and it will tell you there’s an
application on there it tells you
absolutely everything that you need to
do
again
i just can’t imagine as a business owner
so i’m in the same position as your boss
and if i was say i don’t even know how
much it is it’s it’s not a thousand
bucks um it’s lower than that i’m paying
much more for organizations that we’re
getting far less from but i do it uh so
our company has representation at those
awt just gives me so much information i
would be at such a loss if i did not
have that membership so i don’t think he
has the right information
i don’t necessarily think he’s cheap
i just don’t think he sees the benefit
from that so
uh
hopefully this helps like i said if i
can help personally let me know
contact awt angela pike is the
membership director there and she can
she can definitely
help you with some information with that
my advice would be don’t give up
sit down with him and say what you’re
getting from this show
and what you want to continue to get and
why you know if i go to a training like
this this is going to help me become a
better water treater and then i can
bring that information back to this
office
and i would like to teach
one or two or three of the things that
i’ve learned there so we all get value
from it and start
maybe selling it in that way
once you do that he’s going to think wow
i’m never not going to send this person
to
wherever they want to go again because
they really take it seriously it’s not
just the fact that they want me to throw
money at something i’m getting value for
that so hopefully that helps don’t give
up and let me know how i can help this
next person writes in trace thanks so
much for sharing the tip of adding one
drop of edta first to the hardness test
kit when you have iron issues
says they’ve used that a lot and they
want to know
do i have any other tips like that
well first off you’re welcome that was
something that it wasn’t mine i learned
that from frank lacrone
and he learned that because all these
people were calling in and saying that
his test kit wasn’t working properly
so they figured out what the actual
issue was and went back in their lab and
came up with this technique and he
shared that at awt
a previous uh question was uh their boss
didn’t see value in awt well if if you
didn’t go to that awt you wouldn’t have
gotten that value out of it
and i’ve received uh i received a letter
saying that that’s helped somebody up
all right so i’m back on another
question when i should be on
this question the question is can i
share other tips and i certainly can
uh
i’m trying to think of something i can
share with you but while i’m thinking so
i’m stalling for time
i am going to advise you to get to know
your tests
and the best way to do that is to look
at your procedures
and study your interferences now you
might not have information on your
company’s procedures because maybe
somebody just rewrote procedures to make
it easy for you to read out in the field
so i want you
to go to www.hawkhach.com
forward slash
water analysis handbook sorry it’s it’s
uh w a h so forward slash w a h and if
you search hawk water analysis handbook
that will come up
and every test that hawk makes and their
full procedures are listed there
and what i would do
is pick out the ones now you’ll have to
basically you select something and it
gives you a pdf to download you’re going
to download all the pdfs of the test
that you have and the first thing you’re
going to notice is there’s going to be a
procedure there and it’s probably
different from what you’re running
don’t worry about that
if it’s the same type of test it might
just be using hawk reagents
and not tailor reagents or not
another company’s reagents
you can still use that and and the great
thing about those pdfs is in the back it
tells you every single interference that
they know of
that can create a problem with your test
look at those and then go back and
figure out
is one of those in my system and then
how can i get rid of it so here’s the
tip that i’ll give you
when you find one of those how are you
going to get rid of it well you can’t
get it out of the system but you can
figure out how much is an issue and
normally it says
you know iron might be three parts per
million or above
so if it’s that and you’ve got more than
that you can dilute the sample
and
from that sample you you’re now testing
less
of of the actual water that’s that’s
creating the issue and you can run your
test hopefully without any problems
then you just have to remember whatever
you diluted it to you’ve got to add that
back so if you had a
if it was normally a 20 mil sample and
you couldn’t run it because of the
interference whatever the interference
was so you brought it up to
you know half and half so 10 di water 10
system water and tested it then
whatever you tested for you’d have to
you’d have to multiply
back by two because you’re only testing
half of what’s really there
i will say be careful with this if you
are sloppy on your procedures and your
measurements this is where your margin
of error is going to multiply
greatly
because if i’m sloppy with my
measurements i don’t have half and half
and now i’m not only am i off on my
actual test because my measurements are
off but now i’m multiplying that
whatever that multiplier is that’s going
to double or triple or whatever
that
error was so hopefully that is enough
i’m sort of at a blank i know i’ve got a
lot of stuff that i do i just can’t
think of anything so i tell you what if
you write back in and ask me for a
specific test that you’re having issues
with i’ll try to answer that on the air
and i’ll give you that one next question
is trace what should i tell the customer
to do prior to a boiler inspection
so for those of you that are responsible
for the water treatment for boilers
probably minimum every single year
somebody is coming in and they’re
inspecting the internals
and all of the safety equipment on the
outside of the boiler itself
in a lot of ways we look at this as our
report card on how we are doing
for the past year
i would like for us to start looking at
it as how the entire team
is doing for this boiler for the past
year
because if we’re doing monthly servicing
there’s somebody else that’s there every
single day and hopefully we’re working
together to make sure we’re getting an a
on that report card you can’t have one
side without the other so it is
collective how well that we are doing
please
educate your customers to this and
hopefully if they’re not working with
you that might be a little motivation
that allows them to more readily want to
work
with you the question specifically says
what do i need to tell the customer do
in preparation
for this
so normally what i do
is i have them either double or
quadruple the blowdown
depending on what’s going on uh with the
year
the goal with that is we want to get all
that sludge that’s in the bottom of the
boiler out
before we get all the water out of the
boiler
and typically i tell them not to worry
so much about the conductivity
that they’re concentrating on blow downs
i would probably also make a slight
adjustment to all of my chemistries
knowing
that instead of holding a specific
conductivity we are now going to go way
below that and make sure that the boiler
is protected during i like to do this
about a week to three days minimum
before they’re actually going to shut
the boiler down
i also add extra polymer during this
process so it will help
get all of that stuff
through the blow down line and and out
of the boiler
that’s probably the big thing that i’ll
do with that and of course make sure
always that they have soft water nothing
new that you wouldn’t always do i’m just
trying to think of some other items that
i can give you for advice
when they actually shut the boiler down
they need to prepare for that and so
many times they don’t shut it down in
time for it to cool
and then they expect the boiler
inspector or even worse me to get in
this steaming hot boiler and one of the
things i’m not going to talk about the
boiler inspection itself but one of the
things i like to use during a boiler
inspection is a camera and i don’t know
if you’ve ever tried to use
a camera in the presence of steam but
you are not getting any pictures
so just make sure that they’re given
enough time
to allow that boiler to cool
and then i’ve also seen again not
talking too much about the inspection
but i’ve seen
they’ve taken something down
they’ve looked inside maybe the maybe it
wasn’t getting inspected but they’re
having to replace something and then
immediately they introduce cold water to
a hot boiler please don’t do that that
greatly stresses the metal and you can
have some really major issues with the
boiler if you were to do that now when
you’re going to put the boiler back
online you need to calculate how much
water is going back into the boiler and
all of your products out there have a
dosage rate and what you’re gonna do is
if it’s so many hundred gallons
you’re gonna figure out what the dosage
rate is for that so many hundred gallons
and actually put that directly just
right on top of the boiler and bring it
up a lot of people will assume
that their chemical feed pumps are going
to bring that boiler back up to where it
needs to go and those chemical feed
pumps they are there to maintain what is
there so you’ve once you’re done with
the boiler inspection and you’re filling
it back up the water you’ve got to get
it up to what you want to
maintain i hope that answers your
question you specifically asked what you
need to tell the customer to reiterate
increase your blowdown
you’re probably going to increase the
polymer tell them not to worry so much
about holding a specific conductivity
instead of doing their normal blowdowns
they’re going to double or triple or
quadruple what those blow downs are
and then make sure that they have plenty
of time to cool that boiler before
anybody has to get inside with it
the next question is do i really need to
get my cwt or lead ga
there’s some more in this question
they’re going in to validate the reasons
that they don’t need that but pretty
much it’s you know i’ve been getting by
with it so far so why do i need it now
my answer is no you don’t need to get
your cwt or any certification but my
question back at you
is why wouldn’t you folks you have
decided to be in a particular industry
now that industry just happens to be
water treatment
but whatever it is why would you want to
be mediocre
and you can be a very good water treater
a very good technician at whatever it is
that you’re doing without certification
but think about what certification is
and think about what this show is the
whole reason that i am doing this show
is to give you that little extra push
to learn something new to do something a
little bit better
and i feel that the cwt for the water
treatment industry
is the validation that you’ve done that
that you are better than other water
treaters out there because you’ve done
more than they have to prove to your
customers your employers and yourself
that you got this designation
now just because you’re a cwt does not
mean you stop learning but like i said
it is a
it’s a way
that you can prove to yourself that you
learned baseline information
among some of the top peers in the
organization as far as the lee ga
lee ga has very little to do with water
treatment now there’s some in there
but there’s not a lot of it
however
the united states green building council
is putting i don’t want to say standards
because they’re not standards but
they’re they’re letting their members
know
that we as water treaters need to do
certain things in order
for them to get verified certified to
get the points on their
wherever their equipment is whether it’s
a building or whatever it is
wouldn’t we want to be at that table for
conversation and if we have a bunch of
skilled water treaters that are
available to have that conversation with
our
customers and we can speak the same
language that everybody at that table is
because we’re talking about getting this
building
lead certified
now
it has value for everybody that’s
involved
and the re other reason
that i think that getting your lead ga
is a good idea is because many of us are
out of practice with studying
it’s been a while since we’ve been in
school it’s been a while since we’ve
taken a standardized test
the lee ga you will have to study for
because it’s got a lot of stuff outside
of water treatment but it’s not a
difficult study
and it gives you a credential that you
can get relatively quickly that you can
put on your business card right then and
it’s going to give you the confidence
to go ahead and start studying for your
certified water technologist examination
and you’re going to feel good because
you say hey i got this lee ga
now i know what to do i’m back in the
habit and i am confident that if i put
my mind to it i can get this cwt
so i hope the new question is is why
wouldn’t i want to get
my cwt
or my lead ga
and by the way on my show notes page
i’ll put links to both of those if you
want to learn more about those
and i want to thank that listener for
that question
this question reads trace when you came
up and worked with our company you said
we needed to start running copper and
iron on closed loops and cooling towers
why
let’s back up a little bit so i’m not
going to tell you the name of the
company or who wrote this
but one of my favorite things to do is
to work with other water treaters so i
can learn from them and they can learn
from me and hopefully whatever issue
that they are having we can overcome
that and everybody’s getting better
in this specific instance this customer
hired me
to come up and they’re a fellow awt
member to
look at their system
that they had for this one customer and
they did it with the customer the
customer was was in uh in full light of
everything that we were doing
and i was to go in and try to steal the
business from them now not not really
but if just think if i was going after
another account that somebody else had
that wasn’t me
i would be looking for all these things
that i would do better so i could show
that i knew more than the other company
that actually had the business
so that was the arrangement we had we
went into this customer site
and i just started doing my survey and
the other company was there and i was
asking them questions of course so i
could get some more information and i
found
probably a dozen things that i would
have done differently or more
importantly they were actually falling
short on
and i don’t think that they were i know
for a fact that they were not saying
we’re just not going to do this stuff
this account’s not worth it they’ve had
it for so long they’ve just it’s the
same stuff month after month after month
and when you start seeing problems over
and over and over again
you kind of become immune to them you
just don’t see them anymore so that was
the big thing that we had here anyway i
took all the information that i had
and then we went back to their place of
business
we looked at service reports and various
things and like i said i found about 12
items that they could improve on and
then we work together
to figure out how they could improve on
it and how they would know when the
improvement
was made and i got to tell you that’s
that’s my favorite thing to do
when i can do what i do best and and
find problems and troubleshoot problems
and teach along the way i absolutely
love
doing that the person in this company
was one of the technicians and he wasn’t
involved in this entire process he was
just involved when i was doing training
with this company
basic water treatment items and then i
made some suggestions based on what i
found at this and a couple of other
accounts of what they could be doing
better
and one of those suggestions was to
start testing copper and iron in closed
loops and cooling towers so now you have
the framework of how this question was
posed to me
and the reason was i was not able to
look at their service reports and
confirm or
prove that we were or not having issues
now when i ran my own test i was
instantly able to find certain issues
because i knew what to look for
and basically i was just on a scavenger
hunt at that time
are things working now i’m going to go
test that and i’m going to run various
tests i’m going to talk to people
i’m going to look at things and and then
i’m going to get verification of whether
it is or it is not
and we were having some issues with some
higher than normal corrosion
and we weren’t running corrosion coupons
and we weren’t running copper and we
weren’t running
iron so this show isn’t or this question
isn’t about corrosion coupons everybody
knows how i feel about that if you’re
not running corrosion coupons in your
system
then you’re treating your chiller or
your heat exchanger or whatever piece of
metal is in there azure corrosion
coupons and by the time that tells you
something’s a problem you’ve really got
a problem so corrosion coupons are a
little bit more proactive copper and
iron are what’s making up the parts of
that system
if we’re doing our job well the
corrosion inhibitor
should be protecting that copper and
that iron if it’s not we’re going to
start seeing more copper and iron in the
system and that’s
just a proactive measure that something
is not right but at least we know we
need to start to look
for one so let’s say we have high copper
or high iron the first thing that i
would do is i would look and see
what our inhibitor levels are
if they were low
that might confirm why are those other
copper and iron numbers were high
let’s say everything else in the entire
system was fine
i would then go and look at the raw
water and see what the copper and iron
or
both or either of those are in the
system
and then if they were high in the raw
water well of course they’re going to be
high in the cooling tower
but so many of us don’t take enough
information from the raw water
and keep in mind i’m not i’m not
proposing that you run copper and iron
all the time on your raw water unless
your company has you do that
but the fact that we had a problem on
this cooling tower
we now went looking for where it was
coming from
and in this instance we actually had an
issue with high iron was coming in from
the makeup water
and then it was going into the cooling
tower
and that was actually creating a problem
that all the chemical in the world could
not have solved what we had to do was
fix this issue
and in this case it was actually some
bad piping and they were having it in
some other places of the pie oh i’m
sorry they were having it in other areas
of the building
that were creating some other issues so
the fact that we found this
they were able to do some mechanical
work
solved the issue and it not only solved
our issue
it solved the issue of one of their
tenants and they were ecstatic
so that’s why i say run copper run iron
in the systems that you’re treating and
that way you know if your inhibitor is
working by the way that’s why you’re
testing for your inhibitor a lot of
people think they test inhibitor to see
how much inhibitor is in the system to
protect for corrosion and that’s kind of
true but not really it’s how much extra
inhibitors in the system so if we have a
residual
we’re going to assume
that all the other inhibitor has
attached its way through this piping
system or through to the metal and now
that’s added corrosion protection
throughout the entire system now what
we’re testing is not that
what we are testing for is the extra
residual
because eventually that stuff’s going to
get used up
it’s going to get scraped off the system
and there has to be so much in the water
available to go back in and repair that
gouge of corrosion protection if you
will so that’s what we’re actually
testing for
so i hope this question
gets you thinking you know what am i
doing to actually validate
am i really doing my job and how do i
know that i’m protecting this system
what is orp
so we all have that controller out there
maybe we’re not very familiar with what
the controller does but our boss said
hey this is your account go service it
and we inherited it we have no idea what
it is
but we know there’s an extra probe
on that controller and there’s a number
that looks right at us that says orp
what does that mean well orp stands for
oxidation reduction potential
now it should really be oxidation slash
reduction potential now oxidation if i
can take you back to chemistry class
is the loss of electrons
and reduction is the gain of electrons
normally we will find orp on a
controller where we have a cooling tower
where we are feeding oxidizing biocides
and it is simply just telling us how
much oxidizing biocide do we have in
that system
and is it enough for our program to
effectively kill
the stuff that’s growing into the
cooling tower
now the higher the number the more
oxidizing biocides we have the lower the
number the
less oxidizing biocides that we have
normally in a cooling tower situation
and i say normally there’s no steadfast
this is right this is wrong we want to
measure orp above 200 and 250 or so in a
cooling tower to give us enough
oxidizing biocides in the system when we
get an orp reading is simply a reading
of millivolts based on that oxidizing
biocide in the substance that we’re
measuring in this case the cooling tower
water
now normally above 200 is where we’re
going to start with setting
that orp and that gives us a small
amount of oxidizing biocide to put in
that controller now how do you know how
do you check it well what you’re going
to do
is you’re going to measure either your
free or total chlorine whatever your
company tells you to do and make sure
you have enough in that system make sure
that the system is able to hold that
amount now keep in mind you’re going to
have a lower amount when you’re feeding
something off orp because that’s
continual on another system where you’re
feeding based on time
however you feed it however often you
feed it you’re going to put more in
because you’re going to let that slowly
dissipate out until the next feed well
that’s not orp
orp in my opinion is a better way to
feed that because we have a lower
slower amount
that’s going to be less aggressive
towards the system metal oxidizing you
know it’s going to oxidize whatever it
is we want it to oxidate
all the microbial stuff in the system
but it’s also going to oxidize all that
metal in the system too we can put a
smaller amount and hold that smaller
amount that’s what orp
does so whatever your company’s
recommendation is
parts per million total chlorine are
free chlorine
measure that and see if you can hold
that in the very beginning it’s going to
be very difficult for you to clean up
the system on a low amount of oxidizing
biocide
my advice is you don’t rely on orp to
clean up a dirty system you do that
manually and then you maintain that
through
orp
now orp is a measure of
the parts per million of chlorine or
whatever it is that you’re you’re using
the ph
and
i think there’s also something in the
equation that deals with temperature as
well i can’t remember the actual
equation
but the only way to verify that is to
see what the millivolt reading is that’s
that orp number
and then do your test to see if you have
enough residual oxidizer in the system
and if it’s holding that
now a lot of people will start to
calibrate their controllers
and make sure that the orp is absolutely
exact and you are more than welcome to
do this however i have not found value
in it i really don’t care what the
reading is on the controller what i care
is that it’s holding constant
if i want a point for
free chlorine in the system and it can
hold that i could care less if it’s
doing it 200 millivolts or if it’s doing
it at 400 millivolts
i just want to make sure
that it can hold it now if it’s all over
the map you might need to calibrate that
or you might actually need to replace
the probe but if that’s not an issue
don’t waste your time with it move on to
something else
so i hope that brings a little bit of
sense and what orp actually is i want to
try to find i know i’ve got some charts
in my archives that show
on a graph it shows how much parts per
million and this deals with chlorine
what the ph is and what the expected
millivolt reading is
so you can try to determine uh either
what the millivolt reading is based on
those two variables or look and see what
the free chlorine parts per million
should be based on the millivolts or the
ph
i haven’t found those to be horribly
accurate but they’re close and they’re
mostly from the swimming pool industry
so i’ll try to throw those up on my show
notes page but i hope now you’re armed
with a little bit more information on
what orp is this next listener writes
when are you going to have mark lewis on
can you believe that mark lewis wrote
this question now i say i don’t tell who
writes these questions but this once
again is mark lewis writing in and
asking when he’s going to be on the show
now i’m picking on mark a little bit
we’re we’re very good friends and and
the neat thing about mark lewis is we
are always challenging each other to be
better water treaters and when i have a
question i’ll call him he’ll call me and
we’ll try to stump each other all the
time so that’s that’s why i like picking
on mark and he picks on me
on his own right when we get together so
i don’t feel bad about that at all i
will have
mark lewis on in a very soon episode so
i have no idea what that’s going to
sound like i don’t know what he’s going
to say
if you know mark lewis you never know
what he’s going to say so it should be a
very interesting episode it should be a
good interview
and your guess is as good as mine what
we’re going to talk about because if i
ask him a question i’m sure we’re not
going to talk about that question he’s
going to have his own agenda so stay
tuned and we should be able to get mark
lewis on this listener writes in what is
the best to buy a side for me to use in
my cooling tower
folks i wish i could answer that
question because i would just be so
incredibly awesome as a water treater if
i could tell you what the best biocide
was
to use in your cooling tower
to reiterate what jim was saying it’s a
microbicide so jim if you’re listening
and if you’re a fan of scaling up you’ve
heard the jim lucanich episode and he
said we don’t use biocides we use
microbicides i’m in no means making fun
of the person that wrote this question
i’m just trying to insert a little bit
of past advice that one of our guests
gave us
my advice would be
go to the awt members section and
download the buy a side selection
matrix that is one of the many tools
that we have at our disposal
that tells us
a lot of generic information about every
biocide that we could use in
that cooling tower i’m also willing to
bet you do not have every single one of
the biocides listed on that biocide
matrix in your product line so i would
start by looking at that matrix by
highlighting the ones that are available
to you
and then look at how they work
very simply biocides work
if they’re a non-oxidizer they’re going
to disrupt how it either eats or how it
reproduces
and oxidizing biocide is just going to
blow it up from the inside out for lack
of better ways of saying that
a lot of programs today are requiring
oxidizing biocides because they have
been proven to be a better
due diligent legionella prevention
program so that’s something you might
want to take into consideration
also take in consideration what are the
issues that you’re having
is it with algae is it with bacteria is
it just in one spot is it all over the
system
what’s your evidence that you’re solving
a problem and then work towards that and
the buy side matrix sheet
actually has listed on it what it’s good
for and what it’s not good for
now with any
sheet like that they’re people’s
opinions and i will tell you that i
disagree with some of the things that
are on that sheet but that doesn’t mean
it’s a bad sheet
it’s just someone’s opinion on how that
works and they’re they’re get their
opinion from their experiences i’ve had
a different experience on a couple of
those buy sides for some things that
they say they don’t work well or they
work really well on keep that in mind
whenever you read anything
information is good but it’s up to you
to go out and prove it to be either
correct or incorrect
so i really can’t answer the question if
you write in and you’re a little bit
more specific about what you’re trying
to do maybe i can answer that question a
little bit better
but hopefully what i told you you’re
able to pull in some information
and
make some better decisions and maybe
you’ll start looking for something that
you didn’t know to look at before
there was also an article now that i
think about it that colin frain wrote
for the analyst
i’m going to see if i can get permission
to put that on my show notes page so
that way for those of you that aren’t
members of the association of water
technologies you can see some of the
benefits that you are missing out on and
colin in this article did a great job of
explaining why you would use certain
biocides and what they do and how they
work so let me get permission to put
that up if not just go to the awt
members only page and search for i think
it was i don’t remember the title and i
don’t have it in front of me but search
for biocides and that which should come
up biocides and colin frain and that
should come up
thank you for your question
this next listener writes trace thank
you so much for putting on the scaling
up podcast i’ve learned so much from it
and i can definitely tell you that i am
a better water treater now
than before scaling up was available to
us thanks so much for doing that
i i’m almost speechless of course i’m on
a podcast so i can’t be speechless
that’s not good for the show
he goes on to say you’ve done so much
for us what can we the scaling up nation
do for you
and
again i’m i’m i think that that is just
an incredible comment it’s the reason
that i started this show i want to be
that nudge that might push you to do
something a little bit better or learn a
little bit extra about something that
you knew you needed to do you knew you
needed to learn but you just needed that
little push to get you there so this
person says that i am doing that and i
appreciate you saying that that
validates the whole reason that i’m
doing this show
as far as what you could do for me i
want to say it’s keep doing what you’re
doing keep writing in
your questions because without those i
have very little material to talk about
this entire show was based on your
questions
i couldn’t have this show were it not
for people like you
you can help me continue to get the word
out to other water treaters that we do
have this podcast a lot of people don’t
even know what a podcast is in our
industry so if you can be ambassadors
for me
and explain to them what a podcast is
and why this is one that they should
listen to
that would help some ways you can do
that is maybe share some episodes if you
go to my web page i’ve got a download
link and you can just send those links
to people say hey this is a this is a
great episode on what we were talking
about last week you know listen to this
that that will definitely help as well
uh of course uh subscribing if you’re on
itunes or stitcher or one of those
services
that allows me to make sure you’re
listening to the episodes that i’m
producing and i don’t have to tell you
to listen to them they automatically
show up on your device
continuing to listen i would say let me
know what you want to talk about but
just listen to me if you guys continue
to listen
i have an audience so there you go
and i guess the other thing i was i was
trying to think what are all the things
that we could do the way i communicate
what’s going on in the show in between
shows is on my linkedin account so if
you’ll connect with me uh traceblackmore
on linkedin you will get information
about that show i also have a scaling up
page on linkedin so that way
you know when shows are coming out you
know when they’re released or if i’m
doing another meetup like i did at the
convention you will know about that
before i even announce it on the show
thanks again for asking that question
that’s just awesome
another listener writes in trace can you
please tell us what you carry in your
test kit i i feel what’s a capital one
that says what’s in your wallet so this
is what’s in your test kit
i’m actually doing this
on memory because i’m i’m recording this
remotely and i don’t have my test kit in
front of me so i might miss a couple
items but i think i’ve got most of them
i’ve got a myron l6p and of course that
does my connectivity and my ph
got a dr 900 that’s the the new
spectrophotometer that replaced the
dr890 and i’ve got about
minimum 20 vials in there if you have a
dr 890 or a dr900
you probably hate it because you’re
waiting on tests i don’t wait on tests i
know where everything needs to be at a
certain time when i’m running things
you’ve heard on other shows
i try not to think too much when i’m
doing tests other than am i confirming
or disproving what i’m thinking is going
on with the system
and i’m just getting my test done
accurately and efficiently
so i can start working on the system so
if i’m waiting on one single vial to
prepare something else that takes too
much time so if i’ve got four systems
and i’m running four irons i’m running
four irons at the exact same time and i
just go boom boom boom
and record that information all at once
so i don’t have to switch back and forth
i’ve got a uv pin so i can digest
phosphate and i can run azol tests and
things that require uv digestion
i’ve got a digital titrator in there
so i can get buret quality testing
without having to carry those huge
awkward burettes around
i have an atp meter adenosine
triphosphate and a couple of pins that i
always carry around so we can measure
what the
biological loading in the system is via
atp
i have a temperature gun so i can verify
you know what temperatures are they’re
great for steam traps
refractometer so i can test for glycol
erlenmeyer flask so a lot of people make
fun of me because i titrate in
erlenmeyer flask i guess that just shows
that i’m old school but i’m really quick
at it and i can i can swirl them really
good and not make too much of a mess or
any mess
rather because that’s why i use them
they do take up quite a bit of space so
i have to warn you on that i always have
more sample bottles than i need and i
like to use the 500 ml sample bottles i
don’t like running back and forth for
more sample who cares if you’re throwing
sample away but if you’ve got to stop
what you’re doing to go get more sample
that’s normally a pain of course my
trusty channel locks are in my test kit
i have graduated cylinders of both the
10 mil and the 50 ml variety got a
syringe in there the syringe i believe
is 60 ml and i’ll use that to measure
sometimes because it’s a little bit
quicker and i’ll also use that if i’ve
got to filter anything out i’ve got an
immersion heater in my test kit so if i
need to do a heat reversion i can do
that
i’ve got my favorite flashlight my
trusty flashlight so i can look and see
what’s going on the system speaking of
light can you think of a worse area when
it comes to good lighting than the
mechanical room
we’re running our test in this
mechanical room that could not have
worse light
and now we’re trying to interpret test
results well one of the guys here at
blackboard enterprise has found this
really cool folding
desk lamp it’s battery powered it’s
rechargeable it’s got a usb port that
you can charge it up when it needs
charging and it the cool thing is it
folds up very thin so it goes in the
side of your test kit taking up hardly
any space and when you need to bring
good light to the party it unfolds and
you can direct it to exactly where you
need good light i’m going to have an
affiliate link on my show notes page so
go ahead and click on that and hopefully
that will give you the light that you’ve
been looking for in the mechanical room
and then i’ve got a trash bag in there
which is no more than just a ziploc bag
that says trash on it because i don’t
want to leave any trash behind my goal
is to leave the mechanical room better
than i found it and if there’s a bunch
of powder pillows and spent filters it’s
just telling that customer that i don’t
care about his space so i want to make
sure i’m taking everything out that i
brought in
and then of course my phone is a tool
that’s where i’m doing my service
reports it’s got my calculator it’s got
charts and tables if i need to reference
something and it’s got all of the
instructions to my tests now i know how
to do all my tests but what i don’t know
or all the interferences that could
happen with that test so having that
document available to me i’m able to see
why am i not getting the result that i’m
hoping for or that i think i need to get
if it’s an interference i can then look
at the procedure and figure out how to
solve for that whether it’s diluting the
sample
or something else
as far as the tests that i have
and i’ve got a lot of tests in my test
kit more than any sane person should
have so i’m just going to mention the
the big ones that i have so i’ve got an
azole test azol is the yellow metal
corrosion inhibitor and i want to make
sure i’ve got enough of that in there
i’ve got all things alkalinity i’ve got
tests for p and m and also oh alkalinity
and i like the barium chloride the
separate oh test
i’ve got some chlorides in there
copper iron
we use total hardness and then if we
need to
do something more than that we’ll take
it back to the lab and and we can well
we’ve got calcium hardness buffer there
and we’ll just subtract it to the two to
find uh magnesium but i found in the
field it’s a worser case scenario for
total you know we’ve never had any
issues using that and there’s only so
much space you have in your test kit so
for a test
or a piece of equipment to make it into
my test kit
it’s got to do more than one function
it’s got to be a multitasker and i just
haven’t found a reason to keep calcium
in there because i can get by with the
total and it allows me to keep something
else in there got a phosphate test and i
only use orthophosphate and i convert
everything to ortho
i’m sure that’s a conversation in
another scaling up episode
sulfite
nitrite
silica and i think that’s probably the
big ones like i said we’ve got i’ve got
some other things in there just because
i’m doing some other tests and
working with people or
trying to validate a new product or
something like that
oh and i’ve got some di bottles in there
the largest di bottles that i could find
i’ll fill those up with water and then
shake them up and it’s got it’s got all
four types of resin in there
and it pretty much just grabs onto
anything that’s not water and i use that
to rinse and i rent i clean up after
every test that i do or my whole series
of tests
and i know if i pull a vial out or
anything in my test kit it is clean and
ready to use i don’t have to worry ever
that part of the test is from the last
system that i tested i make sure that
those things are clean
and i run those through a special
dishwasher that we have that
runs on di water and phosphate free soap
every single week and if we’re doing
more tests we’re doing it more often
than that and then also the di water we
use to dilute so if i have too much
of a particular item say iron
i believe the range of iron is 3 or 3.3
so if i have an iron of 4 in a system
i’m not going to be able to read that so
i might want to dilute that in half and
then i’ll read that and then i’ll
multiply that answer by 2 and that’s how
i would use my di water so there’s a
look in what is in trace blackmore’s
test kit
the next question trace can you please
explain what magnetite is
magnetite so i’m assuming that you want
more than it’s fe3
it’s three molecules of iron and four of
oxygen magnetite is typically what we
want to get in boilers when we’re
treating boilers properly so if you’ve
ever done a boiler inspection and you’re
around a real seasoned water trader they
open that boiler up and they want to see
nice black or dark gray tubes
essentially what they’re looking at is
the magnetite so in a in a high ph
environment
and
no oxygen we should be able to form
that magnetite and essentially what
we’re doing there is we’re inhibiting
corrosion by corroding the metal i know
that sounds really weird and when i
teach corrosion i always say that and
people look at me like i’m crazy but
that’s essentially what we do imagine if
we had a nail and we put it in a glass
of water and i’m sure we’ve all done
this either in chemistry class or as a
kid
eventually that nail it disappears is
totally dissolved water is the universal
solvent water given enough time is going
to dissolve anything it comes in contact
with the grand canyon is a great example
of that
but that nail is too and that nail is a
great definition of active corrosion
active corrosion means it’s going to
corrode and the corrosion byproducts
that are on that nail are going to
slough off and then more are going to
form and that’s going to slough off and
eventually there’s no more left to
slough off the nail’s just gone active
corrosion it’s continuing to corrode
passive corrosion is what we do we add
something to the environment to the
water or the water characteristics
itself are of a means to promote this
passivation in this case
we’re using magnetite we’re promoting
magnetite because it’s a very tenacious
film on the metal surface that will not
continue to corrode once it’s there we
should be stable but the issue is is
it’s not always going to be there it’s
going to slough off as well and we need
to make sure that the conditions around
it are of such so we can repair that
piece of metal or that piece of
corrosion protection back so we call
that passive corrosion
and that’s where passivation comes from
so if you’ve ever had a new system and
somebody said you have to passivate it
that’s essentially what you’re doing
normally that involves some cleaning to
make sure the system system’s nice and
clean
and then we’re making sure that all the
metal in the system
is corroded to a point where it’s not
going to continually actively corrode
so i hope that makes a little more sense
on what magnetite is specifically that’s
in a boiler in a ph environment above
10.3 it’s that black dark gray color
that is just so glorious whenever you
open up a boiler and you see and you
don’t see any pitting you don’t see any
flash rusting or anything around there
and you say yes
not only did i do my job the operators
did their job and here is the proof of
it
well here’s my last question and this
listener asks
when i first started my episodes when i
first started the podcast
i was focused on just water treatment
technologies and information on that and
i’ve spoken on other topics that weren’t
necessarily testing
and troubleshooting
and why was that
well
i will admit that when i first started
this show
i didn’t really know what it would
become
i have so many more listeners now than i
ever hoped that i would
and i want to make sure that one this
show stays fun for you
and it stays fun for me as well and i
thought you know what are all the things
that i’ve had to learn in my water
treatment career
and if all i had to do was learn how to
run my tests
i wouldn’t have a full career i had to
learn not only the tests i had to learn
all the things that went along with that
and i had to learn how to work with
customers i had to learn
how to sell things
i had to learn a little bit about
electricity a little bit about plumbing
geez the list just just goes on and then
when i became a business owner
as i said on the episode with tim fulton
i didn’t know what i didn’t know so i
had to put myself in situations that
were constantly challenging me
so i could become better
running my business so we didn’t run
into problems that i didn’t know what to
look for and if you really look at it
regardless of if you own a business or
not if you’re in charge of an account
that’s a business and if you don’t know
if it’s profitable or not you don’t know
all the ways to gauge
how well that account is doing
then you’re going to fail
and i have really
sought out this information
i read a lot of books
and it wasn’t easy so i’m trying to make
this podcast where water treaters can
come
and learn about every aspect that’s
going to touch them
in their career
so if it seems like a bait and switch i
apologize
my goal is to pour my heart and soul
into this show i truly enjoy teaching
and inspiring people to be better than
they were i think there’s so much more
than just the mechanics of how to run
pinks and blues in an industry like this
so i hope i haven’t upset anybody by
doing this i hope i’ve made the show
better in fact i’ve gotten a lot of
comments saying how much they appreciate
all of the different types of speakers
that i have on this show
because they learn something new or
inspires them to do something so thank
you for your question it allows me to
say something that i probably should
have said a while ago i hope that this
show is the place that you come to learn
about every aspect of the water
treatment business whether it be testing
or profit and loss statements how about
that
if i didn’t answer your question today
don’t worry if you sent me a question i
promise you i received it it just wasn’t
one of the ones that was selected and
that went by ultra quick for me i’m not
sure how the other end felt about that
but i really enjoyed answering those
questions and it’s been a while like i
said
since it’s just been the two of us
listening to scaling up answering just
quite i don’t think we’ve ever done a
show with just questions so i will do
that again and the reason i’m able to do
that is because
you
are listening to the show and sending me
questions on what you want me
to talk about i couldn’t have done a
show like this if it wasn’t for you so
when i say four water treaters by water
treaters that’s what i mean
you guys are telling me
what it is that we need to talk about
well if you’ll continue that
i will continue to have a show i just
want to thank you for listening to
scaling up it’s my hope that you enjoy
this show enough to tell a colleague
about it
and then they enjoy it enough that they
can tell someone else about it you
haven’t heard me say in a while that a
rising tide lifts all boats i hope that
the questions that these individuals
have asked during today’s show will lift
your boat and get you thinking just a
little different about some of the
things that you’re doing out in the
field so you will be a better water
treater tomorrow than you were today
have a great week folks
nation still one of my favorite episodes
i think you can see why
thank you again for all of the people
over the last four years that have
called in that have written in that have
voice mailed in that have emailed in
that have carrier pigeoned in however
you got your information to me i want to
thank you because it makes shows like
today’s possible
and i don’t want you to stop there
continue doing that make sure that
you’re asking your questions that
ensures that i one have a podcast that i
can get to you every single week but
also make sure that we are relevant so
how do you do that go to
scalinguph2o.com and there’s two ways to
do it one you can go to our show ideas
page and you can type out exactly what
your idea is or a more fun way to do
that is you’re going to see a pop-up
that says record voicemail you can use
your computer microphone you can use
your device whatever it is and you can
record your own voice asking that
question and i’ll even put that on the
air
nation something we didn’t have back in
2017
was james’s challenge now we’ll say we
had james mcdonald as a supporter months
before the podcast even aired because
james helped me answer a lot of
questions on how i was going to do this
so james’s support was always there but
we didn’t have james’s challenge but
here in
2021 we do have james’s challenge and
here’s the next installment
[Music]
hello scaling up nation the next james’s
challenge as we grow as an industrial
water treatment professional drop by
drop is
calculate the softer capacity of your
water softeners based upon incoming
water
not only is this good math to practice
but incoming water quality can change
over time and other factors may be in
play
has the incoming water hardness
increased or decreased warranting and
adjustment to the softer region setpoint
what if you’ve calculated a softening
capacity that the softener is not able
to achieve
could this be a sign that the softener
has lost resin or the resin has been
filed or degraded
a simple calculation may help both your
customer and you
be sure to share your experience on
linkedin by tagging it with hashtag jc21
and hashtag scaling up h2o
this is james mcdonald and i look
forward to seeing what you share
well james thank you for today’s
challenge as many of you know i get the
privilege of teaching math for the
association of water technologies and
one of the things i teach is how to
calculate softener capacity and i will
tell you so many people get very nervous
when we talk about softeners and math
around softeners folks it’s not that
difficult and when you understand things
like that you will be able to figure out
if you really do have the right
equipment and if you have the right
equipment you can then start a correct
water treatment program
many people don’t understand the
equipment that they have and then they
don’t understand why their water
treatment program is not working
properly well folks if you don’t have
the right equipment if it’s not sized
right you’re never going to be able to
offset that with chemistry so just
remember that and a really easy and
inexpensive way to start is to use math
math will allow you to get in the
ballpark and then you going to that
account each and every month each and
every week whatever it is that you’re
going to will allow you to dial in the
perfect water treatment program
but let me know what you think of this
james’s challenge do that by going to
hashtag scalinguph2o.com
and hashtag jc21
folks thank you for listening to this
repurposed episode thank you for
requesting it and i want to know what
are some episodes
you want to hear again what are some
things you want me to go even deeper on
that we have talked about in the past
and as always i thank you for that
information and i thank you for tuning
in next week for another brand new
episode of scaling up h2o
[Music]
nation where do you want to go what is
the next step for you and how are you
going to get there those are tough
questions and they’re even tougher when
you’re trying to answer them on your own
that’s why i’ve created the rising tide
mastermind because you don’t have to be
on your own anymore we all take value in
you reaching your next level to success
and we will help you get there go to
forward scalinguph2o.com mastermind to
find out more