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[Music]
do you have a team without an hr
department or maybe your hr department
is someone who just got the job because
they were already in the office or maybe
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and are just looking for outside
professional advice
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[Music]
happy thanksgiving scaling up nation can
you believe we are almost through
2021
hard to believe i think
2020 took at least three years for us to
get through at least it seemed like that
and now we’re almost over with 20 21. i
hope that 2022 is just fantastic and i
can’t wait for all the great things that
are going to happen but yesterday was
thanksgiving speaking of great things i
love thanksgiving thanksgiving is by far
my favorite holiday and it’s my favorite
holiday because i absolutely love to
cook i especially love to cook when
people come over and i can give part of
myself through cooking to
them and
for those of you that remember kathleen
edelman i am a red i enjoy getting
credit for my work
so with that when people say wow this is
just amazing it is just lighting me up
on every single level so by far
thanksgiving is my favorite holiday and
i think turkey
is underrated
not sure why that is
not sure if you knew ben franklin wanted
the turkey to be the national bird of
course he lost out to the bald eagle
that was probably a good decision but
turkey is something that uh it’s one of
my favorite things to eat i always brine
a turkey and then i i smoke it and it is
fantastic and it’s fantastic because it
tastes good on the day of thanksgiving
and then i am one of those people that
will make a different turkey dish each
and every day
for the next week and then anything
after a week it becomes dog treats we
normally don’t have that much left over
sometimes i overcook and something that
we do every thanksgiving if we’re in
town and most every year we’re in town
we invite anybody we know
that is spending thanksgiving by
themselves and we have had as little as
four people at our thanksgiving table
we’ve had as many as 40 people come over
for thanksgiving it’s something that
we’ve always done
and then on a day like today well this
is thanksgiving friday and
something that we do is we go out to eat
at a waffle house and we always pay for
the table that’s behind us just to say
thank you the fact that we can do that
maybe bring a little joy and spark
somebody to do something good behind us
that’s something that we always do
and
i don’t know i’m curious what are your
thanksgiving traditions is there
something you do on the day after
thanksgiving to really make sure
thanksgiving counts anyway just curious
but again
one of my favorite holidays so happy
thanksgiving scaling up nation now
something that i’ve been thankful for
this entire year is around this time
last year i got a call from good friend
of mine and the scaling up h2o podcast
james mcdonald
and i’m going to back up even a little
bit more james has always been a strong
supporter of this podcast
and he was one of the first people i
called when i thought about doing it and
he gave me so much support and he’s he’s
been a great sounding board about
different ideas and things that i’ve had
as we’ve grown over the last four years
but about this time last year james
called me and asked what i thought about
him coming on the show each and every
week
and talking about a challenge
and his thought was that using the
platform of the podcast to get the
message out that we could use his
challenge to challenge each one of you
in the scaling up nation to do something
that you may not have done if you
weren’t challenged to do it and at the
end of a year you would have done 52
things to round out what you do
as an industrial water treater and when
we all do the same things over and over
and over and over and over again it gets
boring and we get complacent and we
almost resent going back to the same
accounts because it it’s boring i mean
that’s just what it boils down to so if
we do something different in those same
accounts we can make it more exciting
and we can also push the limits on what
we know
and when we push the limits we’re
learning so here’s another opportunity
for you to learn something here’s james
[Music]
hello scaling up nation the next james
is challenged as we grow as an
industrial water treatment professional
drop by drop is
test ph of condensate immediately and
then an hour later on the same open
sample
setting water samples may or may not
experience changes in water chemistry as
they react with the open atmosphere it
depends upon the water sample taken
temperature and even each individual
chemical within the sample how does time
impact ph of an open boiler condensate
ro permeate cooling tower or closed-loop
sample
if a change in ph occurred do you know
why
if one didn’t occur do you know why are
there other water samples you can try
this on
be sure to share your experience on
linkedin by tagging it with hashtag jc21
and hashtag scalinguph2o this is james
mcdonald and i look forward to seeing
what you share
nation if you’ve listened to this show
you have heard us talk about the topic
of legionella
it’s a topic that a lot of us have heard
but many of us don’t fully understand
and even more so many of us are scared
of it now i’m of the opinion that if you
are intimidated by any topic that is
your sign
that you need to go out and learn as
much as you can about that topic that’s
your indicator to go learn something and
when you learn something you can learn
something else and that will promote
learning something else now back on
episode 83
i had matt fareed she come on and talk
about water management plans
and several people told me that was the
first time that they’ve really been
introduced to what a proper water
management plan is so if you haven’t
listened to that episode that was one of
our earlier episodes that was episode 83
go listen to that of course if you want
to learn more about legionella i’ve had
numerous experts on the program talking
about legionella just go to our show
notes page
scalinguph2o.com
put legionella in the search bar and you
will find a whole host of shows that you
can devour and start getting that
information that you desire by the way
any topic that you can think of put in
that search bar and chances are in the
200 plus shows that we’ve done
you will find a easy way for you to
start learning while you’re driving to
your next account so make sure you’re
using that web page we put a lot of work
into it and we do that to make it easy
for you to find the shows and easy for
you to find the next topic you want to
learn about but today
we are going to talk a little bit more
about water management plans but today’s
show’s gonna be a little bit different
today
we’re gonna talk to somebody who
actually puts boots on the ground and
they
work the water management plan
scouting up nation my lab partner today
is larry pond of innovative water
consultants larry how the heck are you
today i’m actually home for a front
minute so i’m pretty good yeah larry is
never home every time i talk to larry
he’s always somewhere new so it is a big
change for him i’ve never even seen
inside your home not that we’ve done a
lot of video calls but every video call
we’ve done it has never been in your
home that is correct that is depressing
as well
part of the job part of all the things
that you do to help all the people out
there in the scaling up nation which
we’re going to talk about
but before we do can you introduce to
the scaling up nation who larry pond is
the short introduction is basically i’m
a professional jack of all trades i
started life as an electrical engineer
my first job was diagnostic
echocardiography which went into 10
years of network administration which
went into building management for 10
years and i met my current boss who was
treating our water at that facility and
he said you look haggard would you like
a job and that’s how i got stuck into
this mess
a whole bunch of things we can unpack
from somebody that’s kind of busy i
realized that
well something i would like to talk
about is i think you have a a very
unique perspective from somebody like me
where i started out in water treatment
that’s what i’ve known that’s what my
father trained me to be but you saw the
end user perspective before you saw the
position
that you are in now so my question is
what are you able to see what are you
able to ascertain from talking with
customers that’s just easier for you
because you’ve been in that seat than it
would be for somebody like me okay i’m
going to tip my hand
i’m actually cheating a little bit
because a lot of these facilities the
hydronics are not completely unfamiliar
because my father and my grandfather
both worked at pearl’s pump who made
these pumps and when i step into a
facility i know virtually more about the
hydraulics than the
local staff does
and because i had 10 years of experience
in building management that opened up my
eyes to a whole new can of worms that
i’ve never seen before the water flow
the characteristics the how treatment is
critical though i can follow up water
source heat pumps and then kill them and
then the owners are complaining and it’s
a unique perspective because i’ve been
on this side of the fence receiving all
the complaints and now i’m on the other
side of the fence saying you need to
prevent these problems
so when i step into a mechanical room i
basically wear my hvac hat and i can see
your problems from across the room you
know pipes are leaking sweating and this
is going to be rust and corrosion on the
outside when the last time you had
treatment what treatment are you using
and you can almost guess as to the
condition of the water on the inside and
it doesn’t matter if it’s chiller open
loop closed loop uh borders
you can surmise the equipment condition
pretty quick when you step into the room
and a lot of the problem that i face is
not just the condition of the equipment
that we’re looking at or dealing with
it is the fact that a lot of these
mechanical people
are aging and have retired or they’ve
taken a new position and the janitor now
gets promoted so you step into the room
you know more about it than they do so
it’s a learning curve for them and it’s
a teaching experience for you to give
them the cheat notes that they need to
move forward and protect their equipment
and their investment
what’s a technique that you use
because i find when i know something and
the customer doesn’t if you don’t treat
it delicately it could seem to come off
very condescendingly yes very harsh what
do you do to make sure that that’s not
the case
because i’ve been on the receiving end
not just the giving but the receiving
end
um i know a lot of the language uh and
irritations like your your system is
completely screwed up you need to start
over and do it uh yeah can you have this
next visit and there’s scratch on their
head going what’s screwed up can you
tell me what this is how is this
legitimate up to a hundred thousand
dollar bill if i can say you need a
filter feeder to clean this thing up
because it’s affecting everyone’s
electric bill and it’s a thousand
dollars a month instead of you know 250
a month or it’s leaking profusely and
your water bill is through the roof and
as you know water bills aren’t cheap and
you pay twice in sewer which you do for
water so the art comes in
from seeing their perspective and
knowing how to gently say that
it’s screwed up without saying it’s
screwed up so how do you delicately say
your stuff screwed up i i turn that i
cheat again i turn the tables and i say
when was the last time this was
addressed or when was the last time your
sock filter was changed or do you know
your size your sock filters because that
lets you know immediately if this person
knows anything about the hydraulics or
the equipment and how often they perform
maintenance and if their answers are
blank stairs
that’s your opportunity for teaching
versus you know this is screwed up how
do you deal with this it’s a little
harsh
and if you make the question uh what is
your service interval um what did it
look like last time who was treating it
last time can i take a peek at the
reports to see what they’re utilizing to
see if we can improve upon it versus
this is a hot mess how do you how do you
stomach going to work each day you know
that’s where i strike the balance is put
myself in their shoes and what kind of
soft questions would i prefer versus
being brow beaten
that’s great advice
now
you do specific type of water treatment
but before we get there can you tell the
scaling up nation a little bit about
what your average day to day is like
messy very messy
it depends on the day it depends on the
the task at hand
one day could be standard service uh
field service local or or remote like
raleigh or carolinas or fbi building in
chicago and chicago
um it could be a new account that we’re
doing in seattle washington next week i
could be flying out there staying a week
looking at all the equipment giving a
complete wish list of things to address
at contract start what would be
necessary chemicals and delivery dates
uh proposed delivery dates it could also
be
water management plans because
facilities and we’ll talk about this
shortly a lot of facilities during the
coveted pandemic everyone walked out
flipped the lights off shut the door and
just pretended the building didn’t exist
for 10 months
and then they are on the erroneous
assumption that you just walk back in
open the doors from the lights back on
and all is well with the world and
that’s not the case
so a lot of infestation has occurred due
to stagnation lack of chlorination
off-casting of whatever municipal water
treatment was applied
so the buildings are now a hotbed
they’re petri dishes so they turn them
on and the the first test that they do
that’s overdue is
across the board legionella
whatever species you know heteroplank
count is through the roof so the water
management plan goes hand in hand with
our testing side we want to get ahead of
it with a water management plan and if
you can’t it’s a remediation and the
testing validates both your plan and
your efficacy for your remediation so
the day-to-day could be
new services a remediation water
management plan could be testing could
be uh hiring somebody new and putting
them out in the field and and training
them and i’d greatly prefer that they be
with me versus reading a book i want
them to make their mistakes in front of
me not in front of the customer
especially remote control how do i fix
this over the phone we can do a remote
surgery but that’s not my default
starting point
so the day is
complicated it depends on where i’m
going and who i’m interfacing with
it could be you know training
departments of health um but they don’t
need to hit the nuclear attack button uh
because of a an outbreak or a suspected
case in a building where they’re trying
to do an investigation you don’t need a
water buffalo and water restrictions
just because you’re beginning an
investigation if there’s an actual case
yeah you need to do something different
but again i go back to the facility
maintenance people got their jobs
directly or indirectly through whatever
means and may or may not be up to speed
and the exact same thing is true with
government entities departments of
health where they they’re reading a wall
chart and they have no idea what this
facility is or how old it is or are
there backflip preventers that need to
be uh serviced or updated are there none
is it grandfathered in is this the the
path to infestation for the facility we
have a lot of interesting phone calls so
i never know which day is going to pop
up with which problem but rest assured
it’s going to be one of the above or
more
well obviously you do a lot of water
management plans and you also do
regular industrial water treatment
i’m sure we have several listeners today
that they need to talk to their
customers about not only what a water
management plan is but why they really
need to strongly consider having one in
place you do that conversation very well
so how would you coach the scaling up
nation to have that conversation with
their client
the same
soft cell can be applied towards water
treatment as the canned water management
plans generally speaking if the the
facility management is willing to listen
to a well thought out overview
this is your facility it’s been down for
quite some time there could be a lot of
stagnation in your facility and it’s not
just a water management plan would help
prevent this by keeping the water moving
again if it’s moving it can’t stick if
it can’t stick it can’t grow there’s no
amplification discharged to a
susceptible populace
it’s also the stagnation can also uh
directly lead to copper leaching which
is what i fought in montana so the pipes
are literally stagnant your copper pipes
are being degraded and when you open it
back up you do a test and it says 2.6
ppm of copper now you’re above safety
water levels you’re literally drinking
pennies when you turn your uh
water back on
in order to get around this
not just an emergency procedures plan
but a water management plan is
key to identify your risks
to mitigate them through proper control
measures if you don’t have one of these
guys it’s happenstance if the municipal
water plant happens to be giving you
enough disinfectant and you happen to be
randomly flushing
off through the system you might have
enough protection i wouldn’t rely on
that
because you don’t know what they’re
treating you with chlorines
monochloramines
chlorine dioxides what have you so the
rate of degradation to the facility is
all over the map literally all over the
map it could be one one bpm could be
down to 0.2 again i thought this in
montana
the conversation should be geared
towards
do you have a plan
how do you protect your system how do
you protect your people what risk
factors do you have and are your current
measures adequate for these protections
that’s the starting point for my
conversation as the conversation
progresses we offer these services or
you can put one together yourself
through the cdc test kit and show 188
literature but most people that we’ve
seen who have attempted this
have a very poor result i’m being
generous with those words
the
problem is they’re not identifying all
the risk factors they don’t have
appropriate control measures and
everyone seems to think turn the water
and flush it and heat flush is the cure
for all and that’s just not the case
that’s not even a legitimate starting
point if you’re missing you know the hot
tub the the pool if you’re missing the
recirculating line on your hot water
system you’re missing key features that
are just hot spots for bacterial growth
if you don’t have a water mentioned plan
for identifications for these risk
factors the conversation really needs to
be geared towards the person you’re
dealing with there’s sensitivities the
structure that you’re dealing with isn’t
a hospital a nursing home is it a a
school system because the conversation
would be vastly different is this going
to be strictly for this particular
facility or is it going to be for the
region
like franklin schools in indiana that
would be a conversation for the
maintenance grounds people for all of
the facilities not just a building
because if they’re going to do it for
one they’re going to do it for all or is
it going to be strictly you know a motel
six may have five rooms to deal with you
know change your aerators flush your
system out you’re basically there that’s
the short answer
i realize it’s not short
but no it’s a great answer but uh so so
let’s let’s do a little role play here i
now the customer you told me all that
and i say larry that all sounds well and
fine but there’s nothing unless i live
in new york so i don’t live in new york
there’s nothing mandating that i do
anything so why should i
i’m gonna go back to two conversations i
had one at awt and one with adam green
this conversation is gonna be a little
dark so bear with me for just a minute
let me give you the example
this may not be the exact conversation i
have with you but this is the the
starting point in my mind
when an accident happens in an airline
the authorities ground all these
airlines particular models like dc tens
or nines when the you know wings fell
off or something if people die they take
note in short order uh it’s not
complicated this is a problem we need to
find out what it is address it and fix
it industry-wide
just full stop that’s it keep that in
mind how many people have died in
airlines and they’ve avoided
any reparations to these flights
that doesn’t happen they ground all of
them until they have a cure
how many people have died from
legionnaires disease
how many people have been sick from
pontiac fever if your building is
infested how many people need to become
ill
because people have been completely
complacent this is not my water system i
just happen to run the building this is
a paycheck for me this is a job why
should i care about any of this it’s not
just you it’s everyone else in the
facility are they taking a shower are
they in the hot tub
is there a sprinkler system that they
can be affected with it’s not just
the facility itself it’s anyone
associated with it because this is not
just an isolated problem that happened
to be in 1976 in philadelphia this is
worldwide we’re all fighting this
problem
and the downside is that it only hits
the news when a lot of people are
seriously infected and or
they die from it let’s face it
disneyland and the hot spots in new york
city so if you keep the model of the
airplane crash in mind if we were to
apply that model we would have proper
control regulations in place across the
board already but probably worldwide at
least united states wide why should a
facility’s
owner care about it is is it a nursing
home
let’s say the answer to that is yes
now you’re not just the administrator
put yourself in the recipient’s shoes it
is your aunt your uncle your mother your
father that is in this facility they’ve
had a wonderful life and they’re they’re
becoming infirm and old age
why should they be susceptible uh and or
inflicted with biological contamination
from a shower why could that possibly
potentially be a death sentence to them
so if you keep in mind that this is
preventable to a very large degree it’s
controllable containable a water
management plan is the cheapest
conceivable form of insurance that gets
you off the hook
um you are addressing a problem that you
know is underlying
it’s not just
for you know old people in 1976 in
philadelphia it’s for everybody if you
see a water system it is a potential
hazard and i say hazard because
let’s face it waterborne pathogens are
not pretty they can do lots of damage
it’s not just legionnaires disease or
some form of pneumonia it could be much
worse than that i’d prefer not to get
into that right now but the conversation
should be geared towards put yourself in
somebody else’s shoes not just your own
it’s not just a job it’s not just a
paycheck if your mother is in there
would you want her to be attacked by
this risk
well there’s another group of people out
there and i’m sure we’ve all spoken with
them they think that the course of
action of doing nothing
is better than doing something and maybe
getting it wrong what do you say to them
i have words that i can’t say here um
complacency is not a path uh for
resolution it is
i’m not being hit with a lawsuit
therefore why should i lift a finger
it’s off the radar it’s not affecting me
it’s not affecting my clients there’s
absolutely no guarantee that it won’t be
an atomic bomb that goes off next week
in your facility could be so far
infested you haven’t tested you have no
management plan you’re not flushing six
people could get sick and die and do you
want the six lawsuits on your hands
again i don’t feel that complacency is a
proper path forward that guarantees
stagnation
it absolutely does not take negligence
off the table
if you have a water management plan and
it’s validated through proper culture
testing you’re doing your job i would
say you’re going above and beyond but in
this day and age that is
in my mind the gold standard that takes
a lot of the litigation away it’s now no
longer we don’t have a plan we have no
idea what you’re talking about no one’s
ever
gotten sick from our facility before why
shouldn’t we care it’s you know it’s bad
luck for your aunt who happens to be in
here that’s a bad way to look at this
the correct method is get ahead of it
stay out of it because it’s always
faster and cheaper and easier
than complacency and trying to make up
for lost time because once the
department of health steps in you’ve had
it that’s the nail on the coffin
so let’s say we’ve had these
conversations they say you know what
larry you’re right we need to get a
water management plan you now send back
and forth some proposals probably
through a couple emails you agree on a
price you agree on basically what the
scope of work is going to be and now
you’ve stepped foot on the facility
what’s the first thing you should look
at what’s the last thing that you should
look at who should you be talking with
what’s the dichotomy of what we should
go through with the water management
plan
i try to go for the most senior or
longest lived employee for the
maintenance side
usually the 60 year old guys are just
about ready to retire know the building
like in the back of their hand and they
know where all the skeletons are the
dead legs the cross connections things
that leak profusely they know where the
circulating pumps are and all the
mechanics and hydraulics
i go with them first um because the
administrators don’t really know any of
this they just say we have a building
we’re in charge of go deal with the
maintenance people and they can fill in
the blanks for you what do we look for
first all risk factors again the cdc
toolkit is a phenomenal resource for
this guy
basically the short answer is water
capable of flowing out and and atomizing
if it is that’s a risk factor and it
doesn’t matter what is hot tubs pool
showers sinks toilets for splash up a
sprinkler system is outside anything
that directly comes in with municipal
water and can uh aerosolize or or be
aspirated
look at your heaters holding tanks
down mixing valves
and a lot of the problems are directly
related with heat
because many jurisdictions absolutely
require discharge no more than 1215
degrees for scald protection and that’s
a problem you know as well as i do that
is the ideal growth range for a lot of
these pathogens
in particular legionella
so even if you have the water heater set
for 140 160 degrees and the holding
tanks for the same and discharge out to
a down mix it’s 112. now unless this is
phenomenally insulated so the return
temperatures are in the same range
that’s a lot of water pressure and flow
by the way you’re dealing with the sweet
spot of legionella growth because the
140 is killing it off but what are you
mixing it with city water which may not
have enough disinfection which could be
infested into 112 degree discharge into
the facility so we look at a lot of
these guys
distal water flows and temperatures and
return temperatures these are the hot
spots that if there’s going to be a
problem they’re likely going to be here
and need to be addressed first that was
that’s what the typical water management
plan should be looking for and
addressing
so obviously you know a lot about this
topic and and one of the things that i
really admire about you is you have a
passion for learning
you didn’t wake up and you just knew
everything about legionella and water
management plans and i know we never get
to a point where we know everything but
you know more than most how did you get
there
again i cheated
i had some interesting conversations
with dr janet stout bill person j
farmery yourself
and to a large degree gary garcia
the chemical applications on how to
treat systems what to look for for
biological infestations and
culturing the types of tests that would
be utilized the results how to read them
and report back good bad and different
to the customer
so i’ve picked everyone’s brain over the
years in particular
probably
bill jay and janet they’ve been the
largest influence
for getting a handle on the biological
infestations for facilities and how to
treat them
any books you can recommend if
somebody’s just trying to get a general
knowledge about what we’re talking about
to my knowledge there’s no all-inclusive
waterborne pathogens book that would
that would iterate what we’re discussing
you would have to pick up probably
several different books i would
recommend doing some google searches on
waterborne pathogens because a lot would
pop up that would be probably more
current than a book published last year
god knows it’s changing and morphing
every minute because janet’s
interpretation is microbiology up to
water treatment point and stops and ours
is a water treatment up to microbiology
and that stops and where they meet is
well the science says we need to change
our scope of work into cdc elite
certifications into looking for more
pathogens because there are now
thermophiles that are resistant to
higher temperatures there are some that
can resist typical chlorination shocks
not all of them but they’re they’re
they’re becoming more resilient harder
to kill
and the problem is some of these guys
aren’t just harder to kill in the
systems once they get out of the systems
now they’re antibiotic pain resistant so
if you don’t kill it while it’s in the
system you may not kill it while it’s
out i don’t know of a single book that
can cover that topic because there’s
like nine topics involved then in that
that’s why i pick everyone’s brain and
just take cheat notes and you mentioned
a couple times the cdc toolkit that’s a
that’s a great resource that’s a great
one to go over with customers because
you can just line by line talk about
each one of the sections and answer
questions as you have a visual is that
how you use it that’s exactly it they
did a really good job and they didn’t
make it overly complicated or convoluted
it’s very simple very clean very
straightforward
it’s a logical flowological progression
and they don’t use large words because a
lot of people go when you start speaking
microbiological or regional melanophila
they go what on the world are you
talking about it’s like bugs short
answers bugs
these bugs you can’t kill with a can of
raid because if i used a gamma ray like
that i wouldn’t melt your building
good point you know some biological
words you just use or a word you use was
was thermophile meaning a bacteria that
likes to live at a higher temperature we
as industrial water treaters were more
used to testing the mesiophiles that are
i refer to as the goldilocks of
bacterias they like the temperature
just right when we test for
just regular uh heterotrophic plate
count with a dip slide we’re testing for
those mesiophiles
i know there’s a lot of people out there
that are validating whether their water
management plan is working or not based
on those dip slides what are your
thoughts on that you can’t do that that
is a tool in the toolbox um you cannot
definitively say just because you did a
plate culture for legionella you did not
get zero group one therefore your system
is clean now there could be a lot of
other co-equal bad guys that are uh
inside the pipe system because it’s it’s
a colony there’s a lot of uh diverse
biofilm
that can habitate inside your permis
plumbing system
if you’re just using one of these guys
herb aerobic or heterotopic plate count
or just a legionella or anything that
specifically speciates you’re not going
to find out what all is growing and the
trick is if you have one guy growing the
odds are overwhelming that you’ve got a
colony of something you don’t just
randomly have one cfu of one legionella
or a microbacterium that happens to come
into the facility and set up camp that’s
not how this works they all need
something to grab on to and basically
it’s a coral reef and everyone is coming
to feed on the coral reef and cohabitate
and what we need to do is shock the
coral reef to discharge it
you’re going to have all kinds of
different fish and different species and
different life forms some like different
types of food and some as they die
become food source for the next guy when
it comes to biology um you cannot use
just one guy as your standard for test
and say that’s it for the entire
facility we’re good from this point
forward you’re just overlooking so much
well you mentioned a test for legionella
specifically sarah group one so i’m now
that building owner again
and i now received a report that says we
have a positive for legionella sarah
group one
and there’s a whole host of different
ranges that that can be in
so at what point do i need to be
concerned about it versus i really need
to sound the alarm
that’s a
multi-faceted angle is this your first
test ever
is would this be considered your initial
baseline testing or is this a trend
where you’ve got one particular tap that
has a problem and always comes back with
like three cfu or something or is this
the beginning of a representative
sampling for your facility you have 85
fixtures are you taking nine samples to
get a diverse spectrum of what’s
legitimately growing in the system as a
whole versus just a distal tap if this
is chronic and it’s above 30 positivity
for the facility you need to take action
if it’s less than that you can up your
control measures increase your flushing
limited scope remediations if necessary
or if it’s just that bad and just does
not take get out of my pipes for an
answer you can do a full scale
remediation
so you spoke about positivity and i’ve
heard several people speak that that’s a
more accurate way to look at an entire
system can you speak a little bit more
on that
in any given facility there are there
are so many uh water water features
we’ll call them sinks or showers or or
or toilets uh hot tub spools anything
that’s capable of dispersing water and
any one of these counts as a site um in
the total number of this facility
basically uh you want 10 as a
representative sample to see how much in
the entire sphere of this building is
growing if 30 percent of that
representative sample comes back
positive you have a problem
that means um 10 of my buildings that
are all over the place and you have the
hot spots the incoming the hot water
tank the the return lines the distal
spots all the all the achilles heels if
you hit all the sweet spots and 30 of
those come back you have an infestation
problem between the source where it
comes in and the distal and that is the
problem
so we do that as a baseline do we do
that every time how do you suggest we
proceed
okay i’m going to worry about my sales
one-half for just a second fair enough
yes you absolutely want that as a
baseline every time ever in my mind if
you have a water management plan you
need to pull the trigger uh for
representative sampling and that is your
starting point from this point forward i
don’t really care what happened before
and you odds are their records are
non-existent uh to whatever test you had
before
moving forward um rotate through these
representative samples to make sure that
if it’s a positive it’s a random fluke
because you’re always going to have a
random head of like point two or point
three or point four i know no facility
that’s going to come through with a
clean bill of health every single time
there’s always something and if it comes
back chronically and and or increases
either the number of taps that come back
positive or the cfu levels that are
detected that’s when you roll up your
sleeves and say we have a problem let’s
address this before it gets out of hand
and the sooner the better well let’s
talk about that time
most of the time everything is fine and
then there’s that one positive and let’s
say it’s not very high at all customer
really doesn’t understand it they see oh
my gosh it’s a positive they’re flying
off the handles how should we have that
conversation
do not take the nuclear option this is
not the end of the world i realize janet
likes to not use the word ubiquitous
anymore but i’m going to go back with it
in some way shape or form it is
everywhere surface water ground water
wherever there’s a water source with
biology can be in it at some point in
time it will be in it if it gets past
the chemical hurdle that the municipal
water suppliers are giving you anything
beyond that chemical hurdle
uh if they’re giving once one ppm of
free chlorine if there’s enough biology
to overcome that it’s gonna set up shop
uh completely unabated in the system and
if it can grow it will because the
system
is now in an ideal growth range the
temperature of the lack of low 112
degrees and lower on the return side uh
hots are a particular sweet spot and
what bothers me is like
automatic hand washing valves and
aerators they’re great for water
conservation the problem is they’re
horrific for legionella because again we
go back to if
it’s moving it can’t stick it can’t
stick it can’t grow and amplify and
discharge
but with these constrictions that adds
to the problem now you’ve got to pull
your aerators off and flush the lines
back out in order to get this unwelcome
visitor out of your plumbing i don’t
like when people
read any positive as we need to pick up
the biggest hammer we can and start
going at it this needs to be a
gauged response if you have one hit one
time that’s one cfu flush heat and flush
limited flush if you think it’s a
faucet pull the faucet off clean it
sanitize it put it back on replace the
faucet um because we have had aerators
that were just biologically loaded and
all you had to do was change the aerator
and the one cf you hit one away
don’t pick up the phone and say i need a
remediation tomorrow morning when all
you have is one spot and it’s not
repeatable
so how often should aerators be changed
and how do you know that they need to be
changed um aerators are sticky because
the that varies um there are many
factors that go into that what is your
typical water hardness how fast are they
going to scale does that scaling produce
a phenomenal growth medium or is it
clean water like you in atlanta have
fantastic water i hate you for that it’s
basically it’s still coming out of the
tap so if you’ve got clean water and
there’s fair flow to it you don’t have
to change them that often throw them in
in a bleach solution and sanitize and
put it back in place but if you’ve got
scaling on a regular basis a lack of
flow
a wing to your facility that’s not used
very often or a basement that’s not used
at all just don’t don’t even hesitate
unscrew it flush the line put a new one
on be done with it what do you think one
of the most misunderstood
items is when we’re talking about
legionella prevention programs
i don’t think there’s a winner for that
there’s a couple that stick out the
first is people think because they don’t
have a hit that they’re safe they’re not
it’s you you’ll always be diligent and
on your toes doing your water management
plan and verification to make sure
you’re ahead of the curve if you let
your guard down and you think you know
the city is doing their job and all the
lights are always going to be flushed
out you’re going to have a growth
problem
people also think that just because it
doesn’t affect them it’s also a
non-issue again that’s not the case that
goes back to uh retirement facilities
could it be your mother do you want do
you want to ignore this problem you know
you need to get on it the
misunderstanding is either complacency
it’s not in our face it’s not costing us
time and money therefore why should we
care versus
we see any kind of positive and we need
to pull the trigger on the nuclear
option we fight both of these because
people need to be talked off the ledge
or they need to be talked into proper
action and i don’t know which one is
more painful or which ones we deal with
more often
i use this podcast all the time to get
out things that are bothering me and
inspire people to stop doing things that
just frankly irritate me so i’m going to
give you
that same privilege what’s something
that you see other water treaters doing
that you just want them to do better at
to stop doing what is it
we have been
very lucky in the fact that many people
come knocking on our doors we don’t
really advertise or do cold calls
and a lot of the times it’s like our
previous water treater
didn’t give us a report on time or
didn’t show up on time or was
inconsistent or never had chemical on
hand something’s always falling through
the cracks and there’s only so much that
you that you can do so often for so long
before they’ve had it
one of my biggest gripes is when i hire
and train people my first question and
everyone in the staff laughs and cringes
simultaneously when i ask this question
what’s in city water and why do we care
and the biggest concern is it affects
everything chillers closed loops
domestic systems
boilers whatever anything that can
consume water you need to know what’s in
it and as far as prior treaters that
irritate me is they’re never doing the
city water testing either appropriately
or at all a lot of cases it’s they’re
not doing it at all the closed loop test
says you know 50 ppm nitrate we’ll see
you next month that’s not a report
so my problem is
lack of attention to detail lack of
follow-through this is not how you
perform services
you you’re hired for a reason do your
job that’s my irritation
do you think that comes from a lack of
caring or a lack of knowledge
not necessarily a lack of knowledge
because at some point in time you’ll
accidentally picks a lot of this stuff
up it’s
complacency on the service uh part
because
they’ve been on the road too long they
got too many sites to do with today you
know that they’ve got problems at home
the many issues that they’re that
they’re dealing with and they’re not
focused on the meticulous care that this
customer is paying for and it’s like
i’ll get to it next month when next
month comes i’ll get it to it next month
and next thing you know you know two
years down the road july you’ve lost the
account it’s not that they don’t want to
i think they’re sidetracked i think
they’re just busy overwhelmed it’s hard
to do 40 of these you know in a month
and stay focused
what’s one of the biggest lessons life
has taught you
things aren’t usually as they appear
there’s usually more complications and a
lot deeper uh issues beneath what you’re
seeing especially in our business as you
know water retreaters are responsible
for all the world’s problems when in
doubt blame the water treater exactly
i’ll take responsibility it’s my fault i
get it also um one of the things that
irks me is people want cheaper and
especially in water treatment they
always say you you get what you pay for
no that’s not usually the case because
i’ve seen some
horribly cheap under bed contracts
that just come back to haunt the owners
because
cheap isn’t always cheap and free is one
of the most expensive words in english
language
if you’re looking for a good job you may
likely be paying a good price for it but
this goes back to my first sentence
things are more complicated than they
appear do you do your investigations
correctly set up your services correctly
interface with the customers if they
don’t know that you’re in the building
and they haven’t seen you for months
they don’t know if you’re still treating
their systems they might just totally
ignore your invoice going you haven’t
been here for six months why am i paying
this bill
so uh is there any specific example
where because you mentioned earlier
through making mistakes you learned was
there a specific mistake that you can
cite that inspires people okay we’ll do
stuff new i did this and i learned
something about it so the mistake
actually propelled me further i don’t
think there’s a single mistake that was
made i think there’s a lot of little
mistakes that you make it’s like oop i
shouldn’t have done that when i hire and
train people i specifically said i want
them to make their mistakes in front of
me it is uh not that i want to critique
them and flog them for it it’s a
learning experience because now they’ll
know when i make that face that there’s
an oops involved and they need to take
note of what caused it and how to get
around it from that point forward
they’ll never make that mistake again
versus if you let them just say this is
a closed loop you can’t screw this thing
up merry christmas let me know when the
report’s done and they come back oh we
drain the system there’s a leak it’s
ruptured we can’t fix this
i don’t like oopses that’s a big hopes
so
the little mistakes that we make we’ve
accidentally left sample ports
um on cooling towers that are cracked
open and just constant drip across a
maintenance floor and you know the
maintenance people this thing’s stuck
like a pig it’s leaking all over the
place shut it down what’s the problem
calling you know hvac people and the you
know thousand dollar bill because of a
sample port dribbling open
same thing with a closed loop where it’s
been cracked open and we’ve lost all the
nitrate and came back next month and it
says 50 instead of a thousand now
there’s no protection there’s lots of
city water into it and if we don’t get a
handle on it right then and there on the
spot you know you’ve killed the
passivation you have to start the system
over again a lot of little mistakes
you think that a pump is primed because
uh the pumps are making the correct
noise and the lines are flexing like
they’re supposed to except the footer is
clogged
it’s just trying to pull a vacuum and
can’t
you have to pay attention to all these
little details and the oops is if you
walked away and didn’t notice that the
exact correct sound or fluctuation on
that chemical feed line was correct
they would have no oxidizing biocide for
the next month
in a gloom tower and like seriously high
heat and humidity say carolinas that
would be a problem you’d walk back to a
petri dish next month
so i guess if i could boil all of that
wisdom down it’s it’s don’t assume
verify
verify yes larry if you could only get
one point across on today’s podcast what
do you want that point to be
as we’re basic we’re primarily water
treaters and you’re one of the most
professional meticulous men that i know
of and admire you for that
because i’m an engineer i’m the same
boat i just if i could just go nuts on
every building every single time i would
these things would be polished like
dimes but again time constraints
in general um the overview is this
because of the pandemic my answer has
changed it would have been
professional people act professional
show up and do your job like you’re
supposed to get the reports out get the
system you know clean and efficient as
long as lifespan are possible that’s
what we’re there for since the pandemic
my answer has changed radically it is
because all the systems are down uh they
walked away turn all the cooling towers
off the pumps are off the buildings are
vacant and
some of these systems are just now
becoming operational again and the
problem is this
you can’t take everything that’s totally
turned off for 10 months flip it back on
and pretend that nothing has happened
so as far as the buildings go flush the
water just keep the water moving if you
don’t have a water management plan or
emergency procedures in place and you’re
not doing testing flush the water
whether you think the building is is
occupied or not whether you know people
are using the water or not continue on
the flushing that is our best protection
to get the systems back to normal
operational uh it’s not just the
consumption of the building it is
protections for anyone who can uh come
in the building whether they be
employees or contractors or what have
you keep the water moving that’s the
short answer
well larry we’ve done legionella
episodes before we’ve done episodes on
water management plans but you bring a
perspective because your boots on the
ground every single day so thank you for
bringing that to the podcast i’m not
quite done with you yet i’ve got a few
lightning round questions for you
so are you ready sir
okay i’m scared go ahead
all right so it’s now your very first
day as a water treater and you can go
back to it because i’m giving you access
to a time machine what advice would your
today larry give your first day as a
water treater larry
i hate to confess this but i’m going to
say this
relax because
uh brian wayne meyer and at the time one
of my teachers was don himes
they said you’re doing a great job
you’re just over analyzing the hell out
of it and
the problem is if you’re stuck in
constant analysis paralysis you’re not
going to proceed forward with you know
making new mistakes to learn and grow
where i was just choked with indecision
and just nervous i’m going to screw
something up and i didn’t want to you
know look like an idiot in front of my
teachers and just relax
let the mistake happen
let the knowledge flow inside of you and
just take it as it comes
what are the last few books that you’ve
read those are all over the map too
i have no doubt
okay it can’t always be science so um i
read uh richard dawkins um the shellfish
gene tom harris hannibal because i need
something completely off track and
nothing says off track quite like
cannibalism
and the last one is colin frane’s a
boiler treatment book that i got started
on and so horribly sidetracked ever
since yes that’s just a page turner
isn’t it yeah it’s it’s i don’t need
sleeping pills anymore
colin we love you that is all out of
love all right so uh my next question
when hollywood makes a movie about your
life who plays larry
i picked james dewan for a reason um
he’s the engineer on star trek and he
has a bag of tricks like mine and can
work on anything that man has made and
he may not always be able to fix it he
can work on it make it better and make
it at least operable to get the hell out
of the problem
as a fellow trekkie i appreciate that
answer and if i recall one of his tricks
was he always multiplied the amount of
time that he needed to fix something by
five so he looked like a miracle worker
miracle working yes
correct larry my last question you now
have the ability to speak with anybody
throughout history who would it be with
and why
um
i’m going to pick nikola tesla not
because
of any modern car interpretation but um
back in the day if you study up on his
uh history in the slightest
he had a rival thomas edison who made it
his life’s work to bury the man
and he died basically
bankrupt popper and insane
i would love to rewind the clock and get
a conversation going with a man and have
his work just flourish
it’s breathtaking to think where his
engineering mind would have taken us
especially in today’s age
ac versus dc
exactly and edison was all about dc and
he was going to inflict that on the
world if it killed us all
yeah tesla had a vision that there was
infinite wireless power imagine if if
that’s what we had starting way back
then
oh i it would be so far ahead in
technology and
uh utilization of electricity uh it’s
it’s it scares me to think about it but
it’s a very pleasant thought
well larry i love your mind and every
time we get into a conversation it
always goes way deeper than i
anticipated but i always learned
something and i really want to thank you
for coming on scaling up h2o and
teaching us a few things
i greatly appreciate you having me and i
look forward to visit with you at awt
larry thanks again for coming on scaling
up h2o i so much enjoy every
conversation that i have with larry he
is the quintessential engineer and larry
if you ask what time it is you’re going
to tell that person how to build a watch
but it is going to be the best watch
that anybody could build and you cannot
ask larry a question without learning
something and i’ve really enjoyed as he
has learned more and more about water
treatment and as he mentioned i’m
privileged that he mentioned me as as
one of the people that has helped him
out with that when he’s asked me
questions and i’ve answered him you can
just see how he’s processing every
little bit and i think that goes back to
what we talked about in the beginning of
the podcast what he’s doing is he’s
challenging what he knows and what he
doesn’t know and he’s trying to expand
what he knows to what he doesn’t know so
he can know more and the questions that
he asks after i tell him something about
whatever question he asked me previously
are always so well thought out so i
think all of us can learn a lesson from
larry and and larry again thanks for
coming on the show you were always so
fun to talk to
something larry mentioned that i want to
point out was when he’s training people
he loves to allow people to make
mistakes and a lot of people might be
thinking well hey that’s mean or maybe
your training program is organized to
eliminate mistakes
now you might remember an episode i did
a couple of months back with marty
stevens that was 205 and he explained
his first day as a water treatment
professional and his trainer allowed him
to make a mistake now it was a mistake
that the stakes weren’t very high so
there wasn’t a lot that was at risk
there but because marty made that
mistake he never made it again and
that’s exactly what larry said
so many of us try to protect people that
we are training or we try to make things
more efficient so they don’t have to go
through some of the trials and
tribulations that we went through but i
have to say
we are not allowing them to experience
the lesson we learned why not to do the
thing that was a mistake so just
consider it i’m not saying you know mess
up your accounts or get somebody hurt or
burned or whatever so use common sense
with this but if people are allowed to
make mistakes that’s where the true
learning is and if you haven’t made a
mistake in a while i’m going to
challenge you to see if you’re really
working outside of your comfort level
are you doing james’s challenges are you
making sure that you’re learning
something new at every opportunity that
you have and if you’re not making
yourself uncomfortable
you’re going to work yourself into
complacency so working on that outer
edge of comfort to just slightly
uncomfortable you know that you are
getting better and better with
everything that you do
nation since it is the day after
thanksgiving i want to give thanks for
all of you out there in the scaling up
nation for taking the time to listen to
scaling up h2o i know there’s not that
many choices out there when it comes to
a podcast that fits our industry but i
know you have a choice to listen to talk
radio or to listen to scaling up h2o or
to listen to a dissection of the last
sunday sports game and you’ve chosen to
listen to scaling up h2o and i want to
thank you for that and then scaling up
h2o has reached the number of people
that it has and the number of countries
that it has because of you
you have been telling people that you
need to listen to this podcast that
you’re going to learn something that
you’re going to get inspired and i’ve
i’ve heard people tell other people that
and that’s just amazing to me so thank
you for all of you
that have done that that continue to do
that
and what i’m going to ask you so how you
can thank
me if you want to
is to continue
to do that we have not reached every
single water treater out there and the
bigger the scaled up nation gets i think
the more relevant this podcast becomes
the more community that we build
together and you know a rising tide
raises all ships but a bigger ship can
hold more people never heard that said
before and i don’t even know if that
makes any sense but there you go i set
it how big can we make this ship as
we’re making the water treatment
industry better so i urge you to keep on
telling people about this podcast and if
you haven’t left a review for us on your
favorite podcast player that also helps
us find the next scaling up h2o listener
so that helps us a lot that helps us
with search engines i want to thank you
for listening each and every friday of
course next friday i’m going to have a
brand new episode for you that’s going
to be in december that means we have one
month left in 2021 normally sales goals
are just blown out of the water in
december i guess because people know
there’s only so much time left for the
year
just imagine if we had that attitude for
the entire year
i know i’ve had that show before
nation thanks for listening talk to you
next week
[Music]
of the things i hear so often about the
rising tide mastermind is about how well
the members in the rising tide
mastermind listen to other people folks
we are programmed to give quick advice
even if we don’t have all the
information through the issue solving
track that we practice in the rising
tide mastermind you will learn how to
ask better questions so you can give
better advice
and that will shorten the road for
whatever issue you’re trying to solve
to find out more go to scaling up
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