The following transcript is provided by YouTube. Mistakes are present. To hear the podcast episode, click HERE.
[Music]
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qualm once again that’s scaling up h2o.com qualm at qualm we know the blender
matters welcome to the scaling up H2O podcast podcast where we scale up on knowledge so we don’t scale up our
systems I’m Trace Blackmore the host of the scaling up H2O podcast and Nation
every so often for fun I look and see what happens on this day the day that
this podcast was released I actually did not have to look up this day I have a
poster outside in our office that marks all of the different patches of the nas
space shuttle program and I will tell you on this very day in
2011 NASA launched the very last space shuttle mission that was the Space
Shuttle Atlantis and that was space transport system
135 and after that we had no more space shuttle program Nation ever since I was
a little kid I was fascinated with the space shuttle as I mentioned I’ve got a
poster outside that has every Mission patch of the space shuttle on it and I
just remember I loved studying everything I could learn about the space
shuttle I was super fortunate because we never planned to go to a space shuttle
launch but we did plan to take a cruise out of Cape Canaveral and they had
postponed a space shuttle launch I think two or three times and it just so
happened the night we were staying over on our cruise we got to see the Space
Shuttle Discovery launch and Nation it wasn’t just a launch it was a night
launch I cannot describe how amazing that was imagine everything you could
see covered in a bronzy copper tone and you were able to see the launch the
shuttle rotate and just keep going up and up and up it was one of the coolest
experiences of my life that was December 9th and that was space transport system
116 of course now we don’t have space shuttles I think we’re launching Teslas into space I don’t know if you’ve got
something that you’re just very fond of from your childhood but but I could not get enough space shuttle I remember when
I was in fourth grade and the entire school was gathered around different
televisions in their various classes and we watched the space shuttle Challenger
explode and of course that extinguished the life of seven crew members one of
which was Christy muli and she of course was a school teacher and I remember that
was probably the event that got me super interested into the Space Program because NASA was really pumping a lot of
information into the school systems and we had a lot of assignments around the
NASA program and then of course to to watch that explode that was just a a
horrific thing as a fourth grader I can remember that I remember we actually went home from school early and of
course everybody was talking about that and today there’s no no more space
shuttle program now it’s really interesting all the new Leaps and Bounds
that SpaceX is doing with the space program but just thought I would mention
a little something extra about today’s date and what happened on today’s date
back in 2011 well looking forward a date I want
you to put in your calendars is the hang on July 11 this is where we get together
to network with everybody in the scaling up Nation so I would love it if you
could join me at 6:00 p.m. eastern time all the information that you ever wanted
to know about the Hang is very easy to get you can go to scaling up h2o.com
hang that’s h n g while you’re in your
calendar go ahead and Mark Down August 6 through 8th that’s when the water
efficiency and conservation Symposium is taking place in Chicago Illinois and
we’ll have all of that information for you on our events page while you’re
there you can check out the American Chemical Society fall Expo and that’s
August 18th through 22nd in Denver Colorado and then our good friend W
curri is going to be in Saudi Arabia the global Water Expo so if you’re over
there by all means go visit our friend W and we’ll have all of this information
and more for you by going to scalop h2o.com and then going over to our event
section you will find everything that you ever wanted to know about events
that you could attend in the industrial Water Treatment Community Nation one of the most fulfilling items
I think I ever did was join the association of water Technologies and
talk about doing something that pays you back so many things that I enjoy in my
daily life started because I decided I wanted to give some time to the
association of water Technologies and that’s where I met our next guest
my lab partner today is Fred shirtz a Precision chemical a division of brown
labs welcome Fred well thank you trace I appreciate you having me on well as you
mentioned we we waited until episode 369 to have you on but the time is here
and the scaling up nation is ready to meet Fred thanks for having me I
appreciate it 369 wow it took you a while right
exactly well the the weight is over would you mind introducing yourself to
the scaling up Nation sure yeah I’m I’ve been in water treatment since 1988 I
started with NCO and did uh six years with them and nine years with bets and
then in 2003 I basically quit my average paying job and started with nothing with my own
company as Precision chemical so I’m employee o1 and and then um took me a little bit
to get going as you might imagine I uh in 2003 I beg bored and steel to to go
to the awt conference in Phoenix and she you know some of the people I met there trace and 2003 are
still my really good friends in fact my partner Lee Brown was one of the guys I
met there so it was it’s been an awesome experience so we’ve grown quite a bit since that time we’re up to like 16
people in 2021 and then we merged or sold out to brown labs he’s a primary uh
owner and I’m a secondary owner I’m a minority owner and it’s been going great we’ve we’ve really enjoyed it we’ve
grown the company quite a bit and it’s uh it’s been a lot of fun I’m thinking back in 2003 I actually wanted to go to
the awt in in Nashville and uh the person I was working for didn’t think it
was a good investment well a year later I was running my own company and that was where I put all of my money to get
involved with the awt and like you I’m sure glad I did yeah it’s been it’s been
awesome I’m I’m not lying some of the people who are there are still there it’s it’s been great so if you can think
back and what you did before water treatment what got you into water
treatment oh I’m just like everybody else I went to college to be a water treater right yeah we all signed up for that
degree program right that that doesn’t exist I know and and by hooker crook we
ended up in water treatment and that’s exactly what happened to me to you know I’m I’m a um an engineer by degree and
went to work for a out of college went to work for a Frack company believe it or not in 1983 and then in 88 I I I went
to to NCO and NCO here they are a specialy chemical company and so I kind of got into it there and then it just
you know it’s just developed into man this is fun I I totally enjoy this part
of it so that’s that’s how I got into it so how did you even know that NCO was
hiring and when you when you saw what they were hiring for why did you say I want to look into that further well I
guess the best way to say that is you know when you’re working for somebody as an as an engineer you’re you’re doing
your best you can do and you kind of hope and pray you get your own you get a little bit of an increase every year
whereas if you’re in sales you really get to control your own destiny quite a bit so if if there’s there’s no ceiling
and usually there’s a floor but there’s no ceiling to it so you can you can uh
go ahead and earn a lot of money in the sales Market if you treat people right and do the right thing so that’s why I
chose that when it comes to sales you are probably one of the best out there when it comes to water treatment so I’m
curious how do you define sales when you’re teaching people in your company we’re going to go out and we’re going to
sell water treatment products and services what comes next what mindset do
you give them okay so it’s it’s never a quick process it’s just not a quick
process uh I’ve stolen from Dave Ramsey that that we are a Crockpot not a
microwave this doesn’t happen quickly you have to develop relationships with people and the only way you can really
can really have lasting relationships is to be honest to be upfront and to work
your tail off for them so that’s that’s the key it’s relationships first and
foremost attitude working your tail off and then the technology which you got to
have some technology too it’s really those first three things you mentioned Dave Ramsey he I’ve
got to meet meet him a couple of times and uh I love that he says nothing good comes from a microwave if you want good
barbecue it’s got to be in a smoker or a Crockpot I think that’s a great adage for pretty much anything that’s
worthwhile doing but I’m curious you’ve certainly had some mentors in your life
so can you speak on that and as a follow-up question are you currently
mentoring somebody well mentors for me that would those are usually people that
you work work with along the way um the My the first company I ever worked for the Frat company I had a boss there uh
dick Remington he was a really good guy and I watched him he he got people to
like him and to respect him and that’s that’s number one thing that he did and he was super good at that other mentors
uh really there are a lot of mentors that I’ve picked up at the awt that that
have uh been doing this a long time and they’re they’re super good at what they what they’ve done and as far as me
mentoring other people I I think if you’re a manager of anybody
you’re by default some sort of a mentor to them so we’ve got uh I’ve got seven
people that work for me directly well actually 10 if you count the service technicians and you know they they they
call they ask questions they know sometimes believe it or not all they want is a calming voice and and that’s
okay and hopefully that’s me but it depends on the situation I guess right but uh um that’s kind of where we are I
can’t recall which book it was but it was one of the Dan Sullivan books and he said if you really want to change the
mindset if you’re going to lead people or if you’re going to hire people that are going to lead people or you’re going
to write the job description of people that are going to lead people you never write the word manager you substitute
the word coach and it sounds like that’s what you’re saying yeah it is you you’ve got you know I have a saying that I
won’t ask my people to do anything that I won’t do and they’re in a heap of trouble on that one because I’ll do
everything I’ll climb up on cooling towers I I’ll dig in there and do whatever we got to do but they see but
they see that and it does matter to the customers see that too it does matter because and it’s not disingenuous Trace
it’s really not I love doing it it’s enjoyable so yeah that’s what we do you
know and it goes both ways I’m thinking back when we were in a different facility and a driver that had too many
uh adult beverages ran into our mailbox and we weren’t getting mail and
of course that’s where the checks come in from our customers so we had to fix that pretty quickly it got over a 100
degrees in Georgia that day and I was digging out the old post and putting in a new post and uh put the new mailbox up
didn’t really think anything of it but years later somebody that worked for us
was complaining about something that somebody asked them to do it was probably me and one of the other guys
that was with me during that mailbox time he said look Trace was out there on
the hottest day of the year replacing that mailbox dodging traffic coming through he’s not going to ask you to do
anything that he wouldn’t do himself and you’re not out there in 100 degree weather and and I gotta tell you just to
to realize that okay that’s you hope to be that kind of of of boss of supervisor
but to see okay people are are looking people are are seeing what you’re doing
I love that you say you know you’ve got to be the person that people want to follow yeah and people believe it or not
people are looking at all times Integrity is when nobody’s looking H that’s on your own but people are
watching all the time and and and if you’re if you’re the the technician and you want to become the rep well would be
the best technician you can be and that leads you to becoming the rep and if you’re the rep be the best rep you can
be and that leads to a lot more sales so yeah that’s that’s exactly right you’ve got it nailed how did you decide and and
what was going on that you said you know what I’m gonna start my own water treatment company okay I come from a
long line of farmers my dad was a farmer my brothers are farmers my dad’s dad my
grandfather great-grandfather and and they they got this land a long time ago
and um I’m not 100% sure on this but I believe it was because one of my great
great uncles was a colonel in the War of 1812 and that’s what they gave them some land for their their beginning I believe
that’s how it got started when my family is still on that property so I learned a lot from them so I learned a lot from
from being a farmer there’s probably nobody that is a more independent person
than a farmer you you put crops in the ground and the spring and you hope and pray that you’re going to have crops in
the in the fall and and a typical farmer discussion is like this oh I want some rain oh not not too much rain and I want
some sun oh not too much sun and now I need rain not too much rain it goes back and forth like that so so they’re an
independent lot but my family’s always had their own business so I knew I wanted to do my own business I just
didn’t I didn’t know it’s going to be in water treatment until
probably uh around ,000 then I started kicking the idea and thinking about it and how to do it uh so that’s that’s
about when I when I started thinking about it so all the things that you now
know after starting your business and of course we’ve got governmental compliance
all the way down to how to write a safety data sheet and everything in between I guess that’s compliance as
well we just have so many things that we know now that we didn’t when we first started our businesses knowing all those
things and of all the headaches and things that go along with that would you have started your business knowing
everything that you know now 100% without a doubt I uh it’s the
it’s a great opportunity to make a difference for a lot of customers and I
I just love doing this part of it it’s it’s a blast I feel like we can out
hustle the big boys that are on the Block they it takes you know we’ve heard the stories about getting delived iies
gee wiiz in some case it’s it’s a month to get delivery some case it’s just longer but standard delivery is three
weeks and that’s just not acceptable sometimes so so I felt like we could do
something that would make a difference and could help people out a lot faster and really kind of uh jump over the bar
that they were used to seeing and then and try to grab that bar on the way up and if you miss it you can still grab it
on the way down so that’s that was our deal what would you say one of the most difficult hurdles were
or was that you had to overcome as you were growing your business as you were starting your
business hurdles for me was it was it was not necessarily customer based hurdles
it was usually back office hurdles making sure I got the accounting correct and the things that you that that are
not the passion for me that I have to do on or I had to do on the weekends and
quite frankly that’s one of the biggest things that attracted me to my friend uh Lee Brown and brown labs is because they
were going to handle all the back office stuff and and we merged and now I get to do the fun stuff again well I still got
to do it before I just did the back office stuff on the weekends and so forth and my kids live uh three hours
away and I would grab a stack of paperwork and my wife would drive the car up to see him and I’d be in the back
seat with my laptop and checking out paperwork there as we went along so it
you know and I got to admit I’m glad a camera didn’t see me because some of these days it was pretty bright and I had reading glasses on with with
sunglasses over top of them so if you can imagine how bad that looked that was me going down the road you know thinking
back for me I didn’t know what eido was I didn’t know what all those those different formulations that you have to
know if you’re running a business now so um I don’t know that’s probably by Design now I if if I were to ask myself
the question would I have had the confidence to start my business uh when I did if I
knew all the stuff I didn’t know I would have been terrified yeah if we knew then what we
know now we would be rock stars coming into this business no doubt about that but that’s not life that’s just not life
you learn as you go there’s no manual for for raising kids doing life in
general there’s just no manual and everybody has their own path to go down
so So speaking of paths your day-to-day has changed probably multiple times
throughout your career can you take us through that Evolution okay let’s just start with the
the Precision chemical part of it uh yeah so when when you quit your job and
you start with nothing and have zero customers I want to tell you something your wife is all of a sudden very
interested in what you’re doing that day she wants to know did you make any calls did you get any Headway and and I don’t
blame her I had a seventh grade son and an 11th grade son at the time when’s the best time to to do that well I don’t
know that there’s ever a great time to make the leap but she was very interested and so my day-to-day was
really just 100% sales you have to have sales to grow and it’s very difficult
for a person to start in a territory with zero sales you have to have the right M mindset to be able to do that so
my day-to-day started out that way and then it then it transformed to a little bit of uh you know where do I get the
products and how getting deliveries and and at the at the first I want to say two or three years it was pretty much me
selling and delivering and servicing my my accounts and then I consulted for a friend in in
Indianapolis and he wanted to sell his company so I bought his company so I inherited three people at that time and
and and the the one of the guys that that I inherited way back and at that time is still with me Nick coffin he
does a great job for us really love what he’s always done with us so um and that
that changed things quite a bit now I had to do a lot more accounting I had to do a lot more planning uh and I did and
I traveled quite a bit more because I had to to go from Southern Indiana to Central Indiana making sure everything
is going okay and and from there it just kind of you know bosomed into doing that
in bigger in more and more places we ended up buying another company in Columbus Ohio in 2019 and um so we have
people in you know basically about four states right now in this division anyway
so fast forward up to today what’s your typical day-to-day like dayto day that’s
a tough one maybe week to week would be better you know I get uh I get a a day
or two in my office throughout the week it seems like there’s we we’re doing a lot of teams meetings you know that’s
that’s kind of started since Co and then and they’re quite they’re quite efficient uh to do those so we so we
have a lot of those with the combination of the company and so forth but that three days a week I’m I’m pretty much on
the road I’m I’m with customers with my technicians or my my reps and we’re we’re out helping customers we’re trying
to find more customers that we can help and that’s basically what I’m I’m I’m doing hit hitting the road for for
probably three days a week you brought up sales a couple times I’ve brought up sales a couple times time so let’s bring
up sales again how do you get new business again you got to you’ve got to
earn some trust with these people they’ve got to understand that you’re not there just for you you’re there to
try to help them out I know I talk a lot you think I talk a lot but I really listen a lot when it comes to those
customers you’ve got to understand and you have to ask questions what they’re saying and and paying attention to
sometimes it’s just as simple as body language that you’ve got to talk to them if if they cringe when you say you know
whatever you say that that that means it’s not the right direction that’s why face to face is way better than a phone
call so I think it’s just comes down to this if you’re just genuine with people
and they have a need for what you have then it’s a good thing and I tell people
every single time if this is not better than what you’re doing then please stay where you are how can I ask you to to to
join us if it’s not better than what you’re doing right now you mentioned face Toof face and of
course that’s what we all want the interaction to be it’s getting harder and harder after our covid experience I
remember uh I was teaching somebody how to co- call not too terribly long ago and every single facility we went to
there was no front office reception there was a book there which we took a photo of of course and uh tried to
figure out who we needed to who we needed to call uh but if you don’t know who that person is the days of asking
can you please help me I’m trying to find out who I need to talk to how do you get around that what’s what are you
doing now yeah I wish I had a crystal ball to tell you the right answer to that and as as usual if you’re in the
business for long enough you get a lot of warm leads from other people that you deal with mechanical contractors other
customers and we see a lot of customers move from point A to point B and we follow them along those lines and you
ask those people hey do you know who’s taking care of this plant way over here and they sometimes they do sometimes
they don’t you got to get a warm lead in there or you’re never going to get in and even if you do get a warm lead it
still takes some time that the key is to to know that when they say no to you
right away they’re not saying you’re a terrible person no go away and never come back they’re saying you have this
little bitty stack of benefits as far as I can see and I have this higher stack of benefits right now and
I don’t need you yet uh but you stay with them because you never know when they’re going to need need some help uh
so so you have to you have to be persistent persistency is you have to have that if you if you’re not that
you’re you’re not going to sustain a good good living doing this I remember back in the days when my dad was in
water treatment he would always wear a lab coat and a lot of places you’d had to wear a hard hat and he used a
clipboard and he would just walk into places with a lab coat a hard hat and a clipboard and people just gave him
instant Authority okay well you you’ve got all that stuff you must know what you’re talking about and he would just ask can you introduce me to your plan
engineer I don’t know if they thought he was an inspector or what but uh I don’t know I don’t know if that works these
days I think maybe I should get the lab coat and put like EPA as a a tag or something on that so I can well don’t
get arrested don’t don’t don’t impersonate yourself well I don’t I guess you’re right I shouldn’t do
that I wouldn’t do that that no and I can see that being the case I really can
so let’s say we’re we’re trying to get into this uh bottle making facility
that’s that’s on our route and you don’t know anybody there and uh there’s no
warm lead what would you do Fred to start making introductions to get to
know somebody to try to get that business well that’s a tough one if you’re if it’s super cold it’s you have
to begin the end in mind it’s going to take a long time to get in there again this being a it’s you have to have a
long-term mentality this we’re in the crockpot yes sir yeah you know people in
my my experience is people don’t call you and say oh thank goodness you answer the phone will you be my water treater
i’ I’ve only I mean I’ve only had one kind of experience like that in my 35
years so you have to be persistent you have to be patient to keep calling and trying to find the right person it’s
hard to do sometimes there’s a a guy mowing the grass it might tell you what it is but you you whatever you do
whenever you go into every every facility every person at that facility
is important to you they have to be you cannot you cannot skim over anybody at
the plant because they can open doors for you that you don’t even know exist and and it’s
just the right thing to do I mean it’s just the right thing to do it’s it’s very difficult to do what you said
though it and you’re right it was a time when you could knock on the door see the receptionist and she would either
reluctantly give you the name or sometimes if you got lucky she would give you the the number but it wasn’t
very often that you got even got that they they have barriers for of entries it’s hard to get to so it just takes
time and effort and you know keep keep at it I’m G to keep asking you questions
down this road but a thought came into my head uh one of the guys that that works with us a matter of fact it was
the same guy that made the comment about the the mailbox and me being out there in the heat he was so persistent at this
one manufacturing facility and I got a phone call from somebody from that
facility and they said look you know he he’s just so nice and he’s so persistent
you know we have a family member that does our water treatment so we’re never going to leave that but we don’t want to hurt his feelings can you just let him
know that that’s awesome that is awesome maybe they should have told him that up
front he wouldn’t he may not have done that right there we go and that’s that’s a good thing too so if if we have some
end users of water treatment listing it’s okay to tell us no it’s okay to tell us the real story because we’re
going to do what we say we’re going to do we’re going to follow up and if if you don’t want that if that’s never
going to come to be a win-win let us know that so we can give that to somebody else absolutely absolutely it’s
it’s if it’s not a win-win it’s not worth doing there’s no doubt about that no Fred let’s say we were consistent and
we did get the appointment with the general manager the plan engineer and we
went ahead and we got to the survey over your 35 years what are the must does
when we’re doing that survey to make sure that we’re seeing we’re talking about we’re asking questions okay so
again it’s both verbal and non-verbal things that you pick up when you’re talking to them but you have to to find
out what’s what’s really allowing you in the door whatever that is whether it be
uh something that’s they’re interested in your sustainability issues that maybe
you’re they’re interested in they heard that you can handle a big boiler and they want they know that you take care
of the the power plant down the road and they say well if he can handle that he can surely take care of us but you have
to find out what is important to them it’s not a sales technique it is is the
it’s a fact you have to find out what’s important to them if you can find out that information and sometimes they they
again they don’t say to you oh thank goodness you’re here and here are my problems but you can go in and you can
ask them some questions you know are you having any issues with cycling up your boiler or are you having any issues with
uh too too much water being used some things like that you you just have to
ask them questions and and again listen to what they say and and know do a little research where you go in there to
find out what kind of plant they do you know are they you know they a crush bean plant okay what what does that mean and
then and try to find out some of that information for you go in there so you’re you have to be their Advocate you
have to be their helper to get the to the right thing whatever that is what whatever that is and you know we we ran
across this just a couple of weeks ago and they they changed the source of the water from the river to a well and
they’re the well water of horse is super high in connectivity and they’re getting lower cycles and they’re blowing through
a bunch of water and they’re asking for help okay well we’ve got several options to help them on that one so you just
have to listen to what they say but be very attentive to their needs an example comes to mind a couple
of years ago we were doing a survey and they recently did some work their incumbent water treater wanted them to
do and they wanted them to feed sodium hypochloride and where they put it it
was right in front of a stainless steel heat exchanger and and scale Nation uh if you
don’t know the chlorides will attack the stainless steel there and you pretty much just have a spaghetti strainer
after a couple of uh weeks or months there now my question with that is let’s
say we’re on the survey we see something like that we want to let them know that
we have knowledge that this isn’t the best thing to do and the cumbent water
treater should not have recommended that how do we do that gracefully well that’s
a tough one but I certainly don’t tell them when I’m first out the first time all of my solutions to the problems you
cannot do that to them first they have to have some trust in you and and believe in you so we go in and we we do
a survey we look for things and then we we say to them look here’s what we found
when can we have a follow-up meeting we have identified some very significant
items that will save you money and and enhance your your operations and so you
try to build some sort of anticipation on their part to want you to come back
if they’re not inviting you back you’re you’re probably not there and not you don’t connect with everybody
that’s that’s not how it works but if you are doing it right and you’re listening and you’re and you’re able to
help them out with with their problems they will invite you back and and then
you can present that I can remember in a as a young water treater just spewing
out all the information right away and they said thank you very much and they gave it to the competitor and stayed
right where they were that’s not fun I don’t enjoy that so now I I definitely
tell them all the information but I don’t NE necessarily download it all right up
front we used to put every single recommendation in our proposal notes
that we left with the customer and when we went to follow up we came in through the back door of this particular
customer and we saw the in the the water trater that had the business and they had a copy of our proposal and they were
just checking it off so I think there definitely is something to what you’re saying yeah we’ve all we’ve all had that
happen before so it’s I would just say as a younger person don’t be too overzealous at first try to place your
value along the way with them when at the appropriate time and when is that appropriate time well you kind of have
to go with your gut on that speaking of The Proposal let’s say we had a
successful survey uh we went back maybe we worked with a couple people in our company we found what we thought would
be the best solution based on how they answered our questions and what issues they told us that we were having so what
absolutely positively must be in a proposal on the Fred shirts list of has
to be in a proposal and uh what are some techniques to make sure we’re delivering that right that
everybody’s just not focused on price they’re not hearing everything that you’re saying until you tell them what the price tag is what are some of your
tips with your experience very good question Trace you you when you’re in water treatment as
you know and you’ve said this many times and we agree we are in asset protection mode we are there to save their
equipment they have millions of dollars worth of equipment and the the water treatment is a minuscule part of that
cost but it’s a big deal if they if they go through then they lose that so one of
the things I did learn in my previous jobs was was to understand the difference between cost and price
there’s a huge difference between cost and price the the price of the chemical is only $100 a drum but it cost you
$500,000 in replacing a a chiller so you you’ve got to understand that it’s
better to invest enough money to do it right than it is is to go with the
lowest price every time you have to go with what is best fit for their situation and that means you have to
protect their equipment it’s you have to have somewhere in a proposal you have to
show here’s what we’re doing better than you’re getting now and that would be
asset protection it could be water savings it could be green technology that is still asset protecting but all
of those things have some of those things and if the more you have in there the better you have that there just no
doubt about that so what’s something that you have found that allows you to
make your points or allow the customer to understand more about the equipment
that they have on site what are some of your musthaves within the proposal well
I would say in The Proposal the writing part of it is not as important as the
presentation part of it so you have to be able to with them and and and any good salesperson or any good
water treatment guy needs a a pen and a piece of paper so you draw out things
here’s where you are here here here here’s here’s how this thing is is really working and and here’s how we see
it work and here’s what we’re trying to do to do that so you might have to draw something out for them and and and many
times they’ll say well well how do you I don’t believe your water savings numbers what do you mean know me I said these
are the laws of chemistry and physics that it’s not me they’re really not me so so then you might have to go through
the quick formulation with them and and you know I’ve been doing this for so many years I don’t look that up I know
it I know how to figure the blowdown in the water savings to them and and I show them that kind of thing so it’s um but
you got to have some sort of it’s more than what you put in writing it’s you have to have some sort of interaction
with them whether that be uh drawing something up or or somehow getting them
to and if you can my goodness if you can explain it well enough you know a lot of times they’ll
come to their own conclusion and now you’ve got something because it’s it’s so obvious that that this is better if
they come to their own conclusion Fred what happens when you
get an ally the person you’re speaking with you’ve given them the presentation The Proposal they’ve come to the
conclusion that you’re the best person to to be in here as their water treater
and they say I need to take it up the Shan I’ll take all your information and
I’ll let them know what you told me what do you do with that yeah that’s a tough one so first off when that happens you
know you’re not talking to the decision maker ahead of time so prior to doing
that you try to gather that I’m just gonna step back two weeks prior to that okay and say okay are you the are you is
this a committee is this solely your responsibility and hopefully they tell
you the truth because some times they don’t they’ll say yes it’s all up on me and then you get to that point and now
you’re kind of kind of uh you’re not there yet if you’ve got that so you have to if they want to present this along up
the ladder you’ve got to try to find a way to get with them along that journey
I don’t know that you can always do that being perfectly honest sometimes you’re blocked out and you just can’t get there
but if if you can get a chance to get in front of that committee now now you’re
cooking you’ve got a a real good CH chance at it but it’s that’s a tough one Trace I think we’ve all faced that one
before um and I sure wish I could just wiggle my nose and and go right to it
and and there’s no one answer to that one you’re definitely right we should be qualifying people along the way so not
that they’re not going to help us in the journey but they may not be the decision maker somebody told me this a long time
ago and I think it’s such a a great way to ask a hard question you never want to
say Fred are you the guy that’s going to make the decisions or is that somebody else right so that just leaves a bad
taste in in everybody’s mouth but uh the advice that I received was the last time
you chose a water treatment vendor what was that process can you share that with me and then based on what they say and
you can ask some questions again hard questions in a soft way and getting getting real answers back hopefully
nobody would say yes I’m the sole decision maker and they have nothing to do with that process but unfortunately
we’ve probably all experienced that yeah well I would say this hard selling just
does not work it’s not in anybody’s best interest to be a a hard seller it’s you
need to be a soft seller and somebody that again gets on their side of the fence helps them get what they need to
get as long as you can help them get what they need to have then they’ll help you get what you need to have so then
you’ve got a partnership and you can work towards something then so let’s say in this instance we went ahead and uh we
secured that business we high-fived each other they signed or we’re to the point where they need to sign the contract and
now the back offices get involved we’re good with the plan engineer they’re good
with us and now all legal gets involved and they now send a request over let’s
say they’ve got a 500 ton Chiller with a cooling tower on it and they want 8 million of insurance how do you handle
all that backend stuff yeah well I don’t know that I’ve ever had $80
million worth of insurance it was for effect yes although we have had to had
that upped and upped and upped and up over the years as we go oh it’s it’s so
difficult to do that but you just if you have an advocate in there you need the advocate in there to help you get through this process so I we have a
pretty good staff behind us that is they’re really Pleasant they’re easy to work with as far as you know setting
customers up and getting through some of those things never really been stopped from a legal from the from the lawyer
saying no you can’t do our water treatment we’ve never really been stopped that way so I that’s not usually
an obstacle usually it’s um terms and things like that if you want to go with terms and and a lot of people like to
extend their terms and that puts a bind on your your cash flow when you extend those terms so we do a pretty good job
of collecting I think our average collection is 45 days or 40 days or 39
last month I think it was 39 so we do a pretty good job of inviting our customers to pay on time you know yeah
we did the work please pay us right you have the point of it is it’s it’s a you have to completely go through the bottom
tier to the top tier and that includes my team and their team and once once
that’s done you you have something Fred now that we’ve got everything signed uh
we got everything started how do we make sure that we maintain the relationship
that we built in the very beginning of this process and we’re continually building how successful their water
treatment program is throughout the years yeah there’s no shortcut here this is you’ve you’ve made the promises
you’ve talked the talk you are now going to walk the walk we just don’t lose business we’re not going to lose
business because it’s all about the hustle you you’re you’re you’ve sold the sizzle with the steak so let’s let’s go
show them what we’re talking about here and so you you’ve got to roll up your sleeves take care of the questions but
then once you get going you you have to get asked continually asked for feedback okay where are you know when we first
came to you this was an important issue are we addressing it properly are we doing what we need to do here is there
anything else we can do that that helps you out along the plant I see Joe over there working on his uh heat exchangers
clean them up are these they from this plant well no they’re from our plant in Iowa okay what’s going on there and so
you might be able to help them out with other things you’re not necessarily going to sell them any chemicals with
that because that’s not what it’s about it’s about helping them out and making them look good if you can help them out
you’re you’re going to be fine we had a very similar situation where somebody was bringing in scaled equipment from
another facility out of state and and in this case they actually asked us what they should be doing and they asked us
if we could do that business that was out of state and of course that wasn’t in our territory but because of our
affiliation with all the people we knew in the association of water Technologies we were able to put them in contact with
somebody they absolutely loved so with that I want to segue over to the
association of water Technologies you and I have both been involved volunteer leadership so I wanted to ask you how
did you get involved with the association of water Technologies but more importantly
why okay how did I get involved with it is pretty much um that’s the easy
question I I got involved because again I started with nothing I came from a a
big company they basically took care of all the chemical pumps and all the reagents and all the the the controllers
and all those things so I I didn’t really have any experience in that area so that’s why going to the conference
was such a big deal to me I picked up a lot of information from there so that was that was a a really good thing to
have so awt when they have their convention I still go every year I I mean I I have to
because there’s always something there that’s of of value to you and over time it’ll be you’ll see things in there that
you’re like really this is in in here but it actually works um and and some of the green technologies that we we’ve
implemented they really work um and and so that’s what I like about the awt it’s
really helped out and yes we have done some volunteer work in there and just let me say that the the people that are
on the the board adwt I have tremendous respect for I was fortunate enough to be on there uh for for three years but but
the the especially the leadership team and you were one of them drace is wow what a what a Time Time effort to that
they go goes into that and the people really care about the the organization and they’re really trying to do what’s
best for all of us and they haven’t lost sight of that so I’m I’m very very appreciative of what everybody has done
that has been an officer in awt my dad was involved a little bit
with awt I think my very first conference was in 96 97 when it was in
Washington DC my dad and I drove up that there from Richmond Virginia uh but a really really wasn’t until I got more
involved in the inner workings when I worked for somebody else that I met a gentleman named James Malloy and he was
the one that told me all about awt and when I started my own firm he said you
got to save whatever the membership rate is off your first check from your customer and it needs to go to the awt
because it will grow your business it will grow your mind it will grow your networks that was the why that I joined
what was your why yeah you know what I think it might have been James Malloy I’m serious I mean um so when I came out
and I I had to find an initial blender and and they I was in Southwestern Indiana and he was in Middle Tennessee
which really is only a two-hour drive or so and so I went down and talk to him and it might have been him it might have
been Gary Garcia another one of the guys that that when we first started into the
business that these guys have have been blending for years and and so it might
have been them but eventually it ended up I ended up with brown labbs as my blender they Blended for me up until
2016 and then I decided to to blend for myself um still maintain a great
relationship and friendship with Lee even though I think I was his second or third largest customer at the time at uh
because they they they still blend but uh yeah it’s so long ago I’m trying to
think I think it was I really think it was James Malloy as well for me so there
you go if uh if it’s the awt for you or maybe there’s another organization out there if you know the value that it
brings don’t keep that to yourself let other people know because uh Fred you and I would have never met had it not
been James recommending that we join the awt a long long time ago right right and
so many lifelong friends that’s just part of it and and sharing just like you
said you you had a an account that was not in your Geographic
region I’ve done that 10 times probably since doing that because I don’t have to
have all of the business in every state I just need the business in my state you
know what I mean where I am but and and it’s you can help each other out and and
99% of the time we want to help each other out that is it’s been phenomenal
experience for me well Fred this has been great learning about your career uh
especially the anatomy of getting new business I love the road map that was
created in this interview but I’m not quite done giving you questions yet are you ready for the lightning round
lightning Round Here It Comes boom all right so here is question number one if
you could go back in time and talk to your former self on your very first day as an industrial water treater what
advice would you give yourself the advice I would give myself is to try to
get to understand as much as you can about the equipment that people are
using to so you can better help them with equipment I was a little bit slower on on knowing some of that the chemistry
came pretty fast and and I mean we we know how to apply what products here there or wherever but knowing a little
bit more about the equipment was there I I mechanically I’m fine I’m not I’m not the an electrician by any stretch of
imagination but I understand how things work uh so I would say that Fred what
are the last few books that you’ve read okay so the last couple of books I’ve I’ve
read one of them is is a book by Billy Walters it’s called Gambler secrets from
a life at a risk so what you know what what am I doing that for well he’s an interesting guy he started
with nothing basically and he’s wasted a whole bunch of money in gambling
throughout the time I just find the book interesting and now he’s a mult millionaire heck it’s just a fun book an
interesting book to do it and I like to my my own personal bad habit is I like
to to to sports bet on on my app on my phone I don’t get carried away with it
it’s just a little bit fun and you know my wife thinks I’m addicted to it but I’m not addicted to it because I quit
every time it’s baseball season I can’t bet on baseball it’s too long Soh and then the other book that I
that that I’m reading is is called outlive it’s the science and art of
longevity and it’s really a book written about medicine and how we’re kind of in
reactive medicine now where if you’re sick here take a a blood pressure pill or whatever his theory is we need to be
the next step forward and then to prevent a lot of these things to to go to the next level of of medicine so it’s
it’s just it’s kind of a health book really basically talks about you know how to prevent heart attacks and what
cholesterol really means to you and you know all of that kind of thing so those
are the two those are the books I’ve been reading here lately when they make the movie about your life who do you
want playing Fred oh gosh okay I’ll tell you who I don’t want to do it and that’s uh George
cloney was just way too good-look for me so he’s not gonna be the guy
um I don’t know if I think they’re not they’re not a lot of actors that I look
up to there really aren’t so I’d want somebody I look up to and the only one I can think of that I really look up to is
a Dutch Ronald Reagan and he can and I would love it if he but quite frankly
I’m not worthy of him acting like me because he’s he’s been a president of the United States I I he’s he’s one of
the guys that I really think is a a genuine person who believes in in in the
United States and so I I I love Ronald Reagan if you could talk to anybody
throughout history who would it be with and why if if I could talk to somebody
it probably be my grandfather and my great-grandfather because they’ve when
my grandfather was born in 1881 and he died in 1967 the at the time
of his death he had lived through like 45% of all all US History it’s that’s a lot and and his dad was even more he he
he lived he was born in 1848 and he also lived 86 years old I’d like to spend
some time with those folks just kind of getting to know and getting to know how their life was and how they got how we
got from the mid 1800s to where we are now I really think that if they were to
to move forward and see where we are now they they would they wouldn’t be able to handle it it’s it’s it’s such a
different world well we’ve definitely enjoyed spending time with you today and getting to know more about Fred shirts
thank you for coming on on the scaling up H2O podcast it’s been a pleasure
Trace I I love this podcast you’ve done a very good job at it and I and I really appreciate you asking me
on scale up Nation I did the introduction to this interview by talking about the association of water
Technologies and I would have never had the opportunity to meet Fred had it not been for the association of water
Technologies now just holding a membership card to an organization I
don’t think is enough if you just want to be a member that is plenty but if you want to get the most out of it you’ve
got to give to it now whether this is the awt whether this is the
International Water conference or whatever organization you want to fill in the blank with the more you put in
the more you get out but there’s something interesting that happens I think whatever you put in gets
multiplied by a factor of 10 I’ve experienced that but I think you have to
put a minimum threshold in before you’re able to start seeing that getting out so
if you just attend one conference call and that’s it you’re probably not going to get much payback from that but if you
are now helping the committee on a regular basis that’s having that conference call and people can depend on
you that you’re getting things done that you’re helping other get things done people see that and they will want to
help you that’s been the story of my entire volunteer career I started with
the awt back in 2004 and that was when I was told you
needed to make sure you had money to join the awt I don’t even know what the membership is now but I can tell you
it’s not very much when you join an organization the next thing you need to
do is figure out how you’re going to serve that organization because what
you’re going to do is you’re going to meet other people that serve that organization and now you have that
commonality with all of those people and in serving together you’re going to
become friends with all of those people and most likely you’re going to meet
people that have expertise in areas that you do not have so now you’ve created a
network when you see something out in the field and you’re not sure what your next step needs to be you now know who
to call and those people know that they can call you Nation I was so privileged
not only did I get to lead the marketing committee almost instantly when I first
started with the association of water Technologies I then got elected to the board of director dors and then I was
honored to be president of the association of water Technologies and now I’m on the past president’s Council
and I work with the education committee so with all of those years and that
spreads way over 20 years I’m sorry to say but with that I’ve met so many
people and I’ve helped so many people and so many people have helped me I cannot imagine my water treatment career
without that experience so I know everybody’s busy I know you probably
don’t have time to do anything else and it’s always busy people that normally do
have time for something else so I want you to evaluate what are all the things
that you are doing and can you find a little time to give back to your
community knowing that by default and through your action
that Community will start to give back to you now if you want to go to our
events page you can see all the organizations that we try to promote
with this podcast and you might look into what the volunteer leadership
structures are and opportunities of these different organizations and maybe
you can help out Nation it’s a big decision but it is a right decision and
I cannot imagine where I would be if I wasn’t urged to make that decision back
in the early 2000s another person that I would not have met had it not been for my
volunteer leadership within the association of water Technologies is James McDonald and Nation we would not
have a weekly segment had James and I not met with the awt thank goodness for
the awt because here is a brand new installment of drop by drop with
James welcome to drop by drop with James the podcast segment where we wonder
explore think about imagine and learn industrial water treatment you guessed
it drop by drop together in today’s segment I have a
what if for you H what if the deor vent is closed
completely I mean there is no little puff of steam coming out of the vent at all what is the purpose of the deror
vent how will it being completely closed impact your overall steam boiler system
which parts will be impacted first what will the short-term and long-term impacts be how would this
impact your chemical levels in the feed water and boilers could the closed V have any impact upon the condensate
system how did it get closed in the first place how far open should it
actually be how would you determine this do the operators and customer understand
the importance of the diator vent I’m James McDonald and I want to
encourage you to be like water by forming bonds with those around you dissolving new knowledge and making
worthy ripples drop by drop thank you James and thank you
scaling up Nation for of course listening to the scaling up H2O podcast
an ask I have of you is not just to listen but to also share this podcast
with your fellow water treaters the more members that we get within the scaling
up nation of course the larger our community becomes and that makes us
better one water treater at a time we can only do that with your help and I want to thank you for helping that
mission out we’ll have a brand new episode for you next week and until then
take care folks
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