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0:08.0
0:12.7
Welcome to Scaling UP! H2O the podcast
where we’re Scaling UP! on water
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0:17.7
treatment knowledge so you’re not
Scaling UP! your systems hello everybody
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0:23.3
Scaling UP! nation Trace Blackmore
here so happy to be coming at you right
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0:28.9
here on Scaling UP! H2O folks thanks so
much for giving me some ideas for the
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0:34.6
show this coming year thank you so much
for your feedback on this shows this
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0:40.8
past year that really helps me do a
better job and it also makes me smile
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0:44.8
because that means you guys are
listening to the show so thank you very
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0:49.9
much for that last year at the
association of water technologies annual
0:49.9
0:55.9
convention and Expo I had the privilege
of speaking at four separate occasions
0:55.9
1:02.2
that was a great honor and one of the
presentations that I delivered was an
1:02.2
1:08.7
experiment that we did here at Blackmore
enterprises to get some first-hand data
1:08.7
1:13.8
on filming amines I know filming amines
are not new they’ve been around for a
1:13.8
1:20.3
very very very long time but they are
making a presence in the water treatment
1:20.3
1:25.7
industry and what I mean by that is even
though it’s an older technology people
1:25.7
1:31.1
are now starting to use them in a
different way now we hear black water
1:31.1
1:37.3
prizes have been using filming amines in
steam boilers for at least the past five
1:37.3
1:42.0
years I think we were experimenting with
them even before that and we’ve had some
1:42.0
1:47.1
fantastic results and I know that
listeners out there of the Scaling UP! Nation
1:47.1
1:52.9
have had results that have either
been just as good or you’ve just had
1:52.9
1:58.3
this disastrous experience with filming
amines and I know this because you’ve
1:58.3
2:04.3
come up to me and you’ve talked to me
about that and I want to say that there
2:04.3
2:11.0
was probably a reason that you have
received those poor results we just need
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2:15.9
to figure out what that is but we hear
Blackmore enterprises we have had very
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2:20.9
good results but we’re also very
intentional in how
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2:27.6
we use the product so filming means if
you are not familiar with how filming
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2:34.5
amines work they basically coat the
entire surface that you are trying to
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2:42.7
protect and anything between the filming
amine and the wall interface it is going
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2:48.7
to clean off of the systems now most of
the systems that I have heard that have
2:48.7
2:54.8
had issues were pretty neglected systems
and the product the filming amine was
2:54.8
3:01.7
used very fast when they were putting
the filming amine in so I think what
3:01.7
3:06.6
happened and I know this is different
case-by-case but the cases that I have
3:06.6
3:11.8
heard of it sounds like what happened is
that those systems were cleaned too
3:11.8
3:17.5
quickly and that created a problem
because all that gunk and yes gunk is a
3:17.5
3:22.8
water treatment correct term and the
gunk was liberated from the entire
3:22.8
3:28.4
system and then it had no place to go
and that’s normally where it clogs
3:28.4
3:33.1
something up or created some sort of
problem so if that was your issue
3:33.1
3:40.8
perhaps you use too much filming I mean
too fast I’ve also heard instances where
3:40.8
3:47.2
they were just very old systems or they
were very neglected systems and quite
3:47.2
3:54.8
frankly those systems were destined to
be doomed all along and you just hasten
3:54.8
3:59.6
the process because all the rust and
debris was actually acting as a bridging
3:59.6
4:04.8
band-aid and once you took that off you
created a sprinkler system and I want to
4:04.8
4:11.5
say of all of the horror stories that I
have heard that is the reason that you
4:11.5
4:17.1
had that issue now here’s the thing
filming amines are cleaners so they are
4:17.1
4:24.0
going to clean the surface how quickly
do you want those to clean and a lot of
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4:29.2
the manufacturers recommend that you
calculate the ideal dose and then you
4:29.2
4:32.8
cut that in
hathwell folks we hear Blackmore
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4:38.6
enterprises we actually cut that either
in a third or a quarter because as you
4:38.6
4:46.1
all know it is so much easier to add
than it is to take away well it’s with
4:46.1
4:50.3
all of this and of course I’m talking
about steam boilers now it’s with all of
4:50.3
4:55.4
this that we had a lot of experience
with steam boilers but I didn’t have any
4:55.4
5:00.7
experience with closed loop systems so
that’s what I spoke about this past
5:00.7
5:07.5
September at the AWT annual convention
and Expo what we did for about a year’s
5:07.5
5:14.3
time is we took a system that we had
excellent control over that had an
5:14.3
5:20.2
aluminum hot loop boiler and as all of
you know out there and some of you don’t
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5:27.5
know aluminum is just so difficult to
treat aluminum is one of those metals
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5:33.8
that it really likes to corrode and high
and low pH well you got a thick one are
5:33.8
5:38.1
you gonna go high you’re gonna pick low
aluminum doesn’t like it whichever one
5:38.1
5:43.2
that you pick and then that creates a
corrosive environment well closed loops
5:43.2
5:50.0
folks we have solved how to treat closed
loops many many many years ago and when
5:50.0
5:56.0
we had a metal like aluminum to it well
now it’s not playing by the rules and
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5:59.7
what I mean by that is most of us are
using something like a nitrite based
5:59.7
6:08.1
program and a high pH buffered system so
we probably have a pH of 8.5 probably
6:08.1
6:12.0
all the way up to nine point nine
somewhere around that area and we do
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6:17.7
that because the higher the pH in that
environment we actually can inhibit the
6:17.7
6:22.8
corrosion going on in the mild steel and
of course we probably have some easels
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6:27.1
and things like that in there to protect
the yellow metal’s everybody was nice
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6:31.4
and happy well then some engineers came
along and they said you know what we’re
6:31.4
6:35.8
gonna start making these boilers
Incentive out of copper and nickel we’re
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6:38.9
gonna start making these boilers out of
aluminum because aluminum is such a
6:38.9
6:44.1
light metal it’s very efficient when
we’re trying to transfer heat
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6:49.4
and it is a cheaper material so hey
that’s a when when when it sounds great
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6:54.8
let’s start making these boilers out of
aluminum but nobody thought about the
6:54.8
7:00.3
water treaters perspective so now we
have copper in the system we have mild
7:00.3
7:05.9
steel in the system and now we have this
boiler that’s made out of aluminum well
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7:11.8
folks each one of those metals is
treated differently and in a pH
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7:16.7
environment that the other metal does
not like so you’ve got to pick one are
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7:21.0
you going to treat the aluminum and
sacrifice a little bit the mild steel in
7:21.0
7:25.9
the copper or are you going to pick the
mild steel and copper and dramatically
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7:31.6
sacrifice the aluminum well obviously
we’re probably going to choose to
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7:37.5
protect the aluminum more than the mild
steel and copper but just realize that
7:37.5
7:41.9
that’s not the great environment that
we’re used to that we’re getting such
7:41.9
7:48.4
great results with all right so that was
the setup for why I wanted to use a
7:48.4
7:53.3
filming amine in a closed-loop
environment with an aluminum boiler
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7:58.9
because again the filming amine is
supposed to coat the entire surface
7:58.9
8:05.1
including the aluminum the iron the
copper so that should give us pretty
8:05.1
8:09.6
good results and I’ve talked to people
that said they had great results of
8:09.6
8:12.2
course if you talk to the manufacturers
they say you’re going to have
8:12.2
8:16.6
outstanding results in every case study
they’ve ever done has been fantastic
8:16.6
8:22.1
well folks I love information like that
but I tell you I’ve got to have it
8:22.1
8:26.1
firsthand because folks out there in the
scale in that nation you’re gonna ask me
8:26.1
8:30.1
questions and I can say well somebody
told me this but I have no first-hand
8:30.1
8:35.7
experience or if somebody that works in
my company wants me to support something
8:35.7
8:42.8
or give them some advice I can do that
so much easier when I have touched it
8:42.8
8:47.5
and felt it and smelt it and wrote it
down and all those other things that I’m
8:47.5
8:53.7
sure we do when we’re running a test so
that’s what I wanted to do with this I
8:53.7
8:56.5
wanted to make sure that I had first
hand
8:56.5
9:02.1
experience and we were looking for a new
solution when it came to treating these
9:02.1
9:10.0
aluminum hot loot boilers so with that
we decided that we wanted to have the
9:10.0
9:15.1
least amount of variables that we could
and folks this is something that
9:15.1
9:20.3
whenever you’re running an experiment I
want to encourage you to do how many
9:20.3
9:26.0
variables can you cut out and so many
times we have a problem system that we
9:26.0
9:31.0
have never been able to get under
control and then we’re gonna try a new
9:31.0
9:33.6
product on it to try to get it under
control
9:33.6
9:38.8
well sometimes that works great and
sometimes that’s disastrous and maybe
9:38.8
9:43.0
that’s what was happening in some of the
systems that I talked about that other
9:43.0
9:48.2
people were talking to me about at the
top of the show I don’t know but when I
9:48.2
9:52.6
am using a new product when I’m doing an
experiment I want to make sure that I
9:52.6
9:57.1
have a system that I already have under
control and that’s what we did we chose
9:57.1
10:03.0
a system that for the past six years it
had aluminum boiler and it still does
10:03.0
10:07.2
have an aluminum boiler in it and we
were getting fantastic results based on
10:07.2
10:11.8
our corrosion coupon studies and yes
folks I do use corrosion coupons in my
10:11.8
10:17.3
clothes loops because otherwise how do
you know so based on these studies we
10:17.3
10:22.9
were getting really good results so we
were getting good results on the
10:22.9
10:28.8
aluminum we were getting good results on
the copper and the mild steel the other
10:28.8
10:32.4
reason we chose this is because we had
that data unfortunately we don’t have
10:32.4
10:36.4
Kuroshio ponds on every single one of
our close loops
10:36.4
10:41.5
against my wishes but sometimes there’s
no room for it sometimes customer
10:41.5
10:46.3
doesn’t want to pay for it sometimes
there’s just no room to install at some
10:46.3
10:50.7
times there is no money in the budget
for the customer to pay for it
10:50.7
10:55.5
whatever it is unfortunately we do not
have corrosion coupons on every single
10:55.5
11:01.0
one of our closed loops but this one we
did so with that we use the data and we
11:01.0
11:07.1
knew that we were getting good results
for the past six years so we did a
11:07.1
11:10.1
couple of things we wanted to make sure
we had plenty of data
11:10.1
11:13.9
so we verified of course that we were
getting good results and all the
11:13.9
11:20.4
metallurgy that was there and then we
verified how many gallons we were
11:20.4
11:25.0
treating folks if you did not know it
you are a water treaty and if you do not
11:25.0
11:30.3
know how many gallons of water that you
are treating how on earth are you going
11:30.3
11:35.9
to treat that water so I want to share
with you how to figure out in a
11:35.9
11:41.0
closed-loop how many gallons you have
but by all means you have to know how
11:41.0
11:46.5
many gallons you have in any system that
you are treating because your job is
11:46.5
11:52.5
water treater next thing we did is we
didn’t want to give any credit to our
11:52.5
12:00.1
previous product to the filming amine
product that we were testing and we had
12:00.1
12:06.0
an acyl nitrate nitrate borate polymer
blend that we were using for the past
12:06.0
12:11.7
six plus years and again getting really
good results with that so we wanted to
12:11.7
12:17.7
go ahead and flush that out just to make
sure that the results that we received
12:17.7
12:23.3
were only due to the filming amine not
any other inhibitor that might be there
12:23.3
12:27.4
and folks I want to share the filming to
mean that we use we use Odyssey Zod a
12:27.4
12:35.5
therm FS 500 R which is their closed
loop aluminum product and then for fun
12:35.5
12:43.1
because I always like to add fun into my
experience we added some PT sa to the
12:43.1
12:48.3
product and what I did by weight I made
it so when there was three thousand
12:48.3
12:52.8
parts-per-million
of product in the system that we would
12:52.8
12:59.3
achieve 100 parts per billion in PT si
so that’s pretty much the whole set up
12:59.3
13:06.4
of our tests now I mentioned we had to
figure out how much water we have in our
13:06.4
13:11.1
system and folks if you’ve ever seen me
present at the AWT you know and I’ve
13:11.1
13:13.8
already said it here one of my biggest
pet peeve is when we’re treating water
13:13.8
13:19.3
and we don’t know how much water we are
treating well folks math will help us
13:19.3
13:23.8
out with this math is one of the few
things
13:23.8
13:29.4
that helped us navigate the chaos that
is water treatment and here is one of
13:29.4
13:34.2
the very few axioms that we have in the
water treatment industry are you ready
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13:40.2
for this here it comes right at you from
my lips through the airwaves into your
13:40.2
13:45.9
speaker through your ears one pound of
anything in a thousand gallons of water
13:45.9
13:51.8
will yield a hundred and twenty parts
per million you think in well a pound of
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13:57.6
what trace well a pound of anything I
have a pound of sodium molybdate and I
13:57.6
14:01.8
have a thousand gallons of water and I
put that 1 pound of sodium a live date
14:01.8
14:07.7
in that thousand gallons of water I will
test a hundred and twenty parts per
14:07.7
14:14.3
million of sodium molybdate if I had
sodium chloride the same thing well in
14:14.3
14:21.0
this case I have sodium nitrite probably
your favorite closed loop mild steel
14:21.0
14:27.3
inhibitor so here is what we are going
to do we are going to test the system
14:27.3
14:32.4
and see how much sodium nitrite we have
in the system and I know what you’re
14:32.4
14:36.8
saying trace I don’t have a sodium
nitrite test I have a nitrite test well
14:36.8
14:40.1
folks you can just simply do the
conversion on that that’s very simple
14:40.1
14:44.6
and that’s actually using your periodic
table I’m not going to bore people with
14:44.6
14:48.6
that but that is very simple to do I’m
just going to assume that we’re all
14:48.6
14:55.5
using sodium nitrite test if you have
issues with this I guarantee on your
14:55.5
15:01.4
sodium nitrite test or on your nitrite
tests you have conversion numbers to go
15:01.4
15:06.1
back and forth for each of the species I
promise that will be in your test
15:06.1
15:09.5
procedures I’ve never seen one that does
not have one so here’s what we’re going
15:09.5
15:13.5
to do we’re going to take a sample and
we’re gonna figure out how much sodium
15:13.5
15:18.9
nitrite is in that sample and folks here
is the deal you have to have you have to
15:18.9
15:24.3
start with some sodium nitrite otherwise
all that sodium nitrite is going to go
15:24.3
15:29.0
to work in your system now if you’re
using sodium nitrite in your system you
15:29.0
15:34.2
probably have a residual you should have
a residual if you don’t you’ve got some
15:34.2
15:37.2
issues you
you are testing for that residual and
15:37.2
15:42.7
that means that all of the nitrite is
used up where it needs to be used up and
15:42.7
15:47.7
that’s what’s giving you a residual so
you do that you have that residual and
15:47.7
15:53.9
now you’re gonna add one pound per
thousand gallons so you’re gonna
15:53.9
15:59.1
estimate about how many gallons you have
and the way you want to do this is you
15:59.1
16:03.2
want to dissolve that sodium nitrite so
that way you don’t have to worry about
16:03.2
16:07.4
crystals floating somewhere and not
dissolving or getting to the bottom of
16:07.4
16:11.6
the pot feeder or clogging up a line or
something like that just dissolve it it
16:11.6
16:16.8
totally takes any issues out of the
equation with dissolving then you would
16:16.8
16:22.0
put that 1 pound that you have dissolved
into the pot feeder you will let that
16:22.0
16:28.7
circulate now here’s the key everything
in that system has to be on or you are
16:28.7
16:32.1
not going to be able to measure that so
you need to work with your customer and
16:32.1
16:38.9
make sure that they turn every single
valve on every part of that system on so
16:38.9
16:43.7
it’s getting good circulation and you
want that to circulate for about a day
16:43.7
16:46.9
and you already know that there’s no
leaks in the system of course if you
16:46.9
16:49.9
have leaks you’re gonna have issues
you’re not going to be able to do this
16:49.9
16:54.3
after the next day after about 24 hours
you want to come back you’re gonna grab
16:54.3
17:00.0
a sample and then you are going to
compare your original sample before you
17:00.0
17:05.2
added the pound and then after that
pound was distributed evenly through the
17:05.2
17:11.6
entire system and then you were gonna
plug it into this equation a hundred and
17:11.6
17:14.9
twenty thousand and by the way one
hundred twenty thousand is used a lot in
17:14.9
17:18.6
water treatment because of that axiom
that I just said the axiom is is one
17:18.6
17:22.7
pound of anything in a thousand gallons
of water is going to yield a hundred and
17:22.7
17:26.0
twenty parts per million so if we just
squish all that together we get a
17:26.0
17:30.6
hundred and twenty thousand I actually
prove that when I do my math portion at
17:30.6
17:34.2
the association of water technologies
technical training I’m not going to do
17:34.2
17:37.9
that here just take my word for it so if
you can visualize here’s the equation
17:37.9
17:43.7
the numerator which is the top part of
the equation is a hundred and twenty
17:43.7
17:49.1
thousand times the pounds of sodium
nitrite you add
17:49.1
17:54.7
all right so now the denominator so
that’s the bottom part so what we just
17:54.7
18:00.3
said was over this next part I’m going
to say is under so whatever you just got
18:00.3
18:05.4
the hundred and twenty thousand times
the pounds of sodium nitrite you added
18:05.4
18:08.9
so if it was a hundred twenty thousand
we added one pound it would be a hundred
18:08.9
18:15.2
and twenty thousand divided by the
change of sodium nitrite that your one
18:15.2
18:21.4
pound got you so what that is is it’s
the final sodium nitrite result that you
18:21.4
18:28.5
got in parts per million minus the
initial result that you got in parts per
18:28.5
18:32.3
million now that’s the Delta so if you
just wanted to say it’s a hundred and
18:32.3
18:37.8
twenty thousand times the pounds you
added divided by the change of sodium
18:37.8
18:42.2
nitrite and then you just simply divide
that through and folks when I did this
18:42.2
18:50.0
in this system I got 1,300 gallons I
knew that we needed to treat for 1300
18:50.0
18:55.7
gallons so now I can use math every time
I do my dosing to make sure that I’m
18:55.7
19:00.6
dosing the proper amount and if you’re
doing a test I know that you wanted me
19:00.6
19:06.0
to make sure that I was dosing the
proper amount so we did all of this
19:06.0
19:10.4
through a filter feeder and I am a firm
believer that if you do not have a
19:10.4
19:16.5
filter on your closed-loop system you
are not getting the job done folks our
19:16.5
19:21.6
job is to make sure that our heat
transfer surfaces are as clean as
19:21.6
19:26.4
possible and if you don’t have a filter
in there there is no way that you are
19:26.4
19:31.9
getting that as clean as it needs to be
so that’s just my little soapbox for
19:31.9
19:37.7
that put a filter on all of your clothes
loops and the neat thing was this is a
19:37.7
19:42.4
closed loop filter feeder that we’ve had
for the past six years and we had
19:42.4
19:46.8
pictures of the lid now you’re not going
to be able to see the pictures of the
19:46.8
19:51.3
lid through my voice of course I’m gonna
put it on my show notes page but because
19:51.3
19:56.5
we had good data and because we had this
filter feeder there we were able to get
19:56.5
20:01.3
some pretty good extra data that we were
not counting on I’ll share that with you
20:01.3
20:05.5
later
just to recap what we did is we went
20:05.5
20:12.0
ahead and we got a system size so we
knew exactly how many gallons of water
20:12.0
20:17.2
we were treating for and this was in a
system that we had good results and
20:17.2
20:20.5
actually had excellent results and there
were no issues we were trying to solve
20:20.5
20:24.8
the only thing we were doing was we were
replacing the current inhibitors our
20:24.8
20:30.8
current program with this new filming
amine program and now we’re to the point
20:30.8
20:34.4
where we flushed the system we went
ahead and got everything out of the
20:34.4
20:38.6
system we did this online and we tested
a couple of things we tested
20:38.6
20:45.6
conductivity we tested pH we tested azof
we tested nitrite and I’m sure there was
20:45.6
20:48.5
something else that we tested their
alkalinity we tested all those and
20:48.5
20:55.2
everything met that of the incoming
water except for alkalinity alkalinity
20:55.2
20:59.1
was a little bit high it takes a while
for you to flush all that through but we
20:59.1
21:03.5
were okay with that with all the other
ions out of the system with pH and
21:03.5
21:09.3
conductivity being really close we
decided that that was flushed enough and
21:09.3
21:11.8
folks whenever you flush a closed-loop
system you’ve got to make that
21:11.8
21:14.8
determination if you’re trying to get
exactly that of make up water
21:14.8
21:19.2
you’re probably gonna waste a lot of
water and that’s not really necessary so
21:19.2
21:23.1
we decided that we got to a certain
point we were good with that and then we
21:23.1
21:28.2
started adding the filming amine now the
filming amine manufacturers recommend
21:28.2
21:33.6
that you have the dose and then one
month later you come back and you add
21:33.6
21:39.2
the remaining half a dose so you have
the entire dose in the system but over a
21:39.2
21:44.3
one month period well we wanted more
data than that so what we did was we
21:44.3
21:48.9
quartered the dose now the recommended
dose is three thousand parts per million
21:48.9
21:56.5
so one quarter dose was 750 parts per
million so over that same two-month
21:56.5
22:02.7
period that I just mentioned instead of
this month we were going to put in 1500
22:02.7
22:06.1
in the following month we’re gonna put
in another 1,500 we’re going to do the
22:06.1
22:11.0
same three thousand parts-per-million
dose but 750 at a time every two weeks
22:11.0
22:15.0
so within that same two-month period we
will eventually get to
22:15.0
22:19.0
the 3000 I hope I didn’t lose anybody
there but we just did that to get some
22:19.0
22:25.4
more data we did have some issues with a
contractor while we were putting the DOS
22:25.4
22:31.4
in I’ll share that with you coming up
shortly and then we use several of the
22:31.4
22:38.0
filming amine test kits to verify that
we had residual filming amine present
22:38.0
22:42.7
now there were three test kits that we
use we use the key metrics we use the
22:42.7
22:48.8
one by Aqua Phoenix and then we use one
by masters all of those worked extremely
22:48.8
22:53.3
well and I’m going to share with you
some of the things that we learned with
22:53.3
22:57.2
those testings so what I’m basically
saying any test that you have it will
22:57.2
23:04.8
work fine well I told you about the lid
in the closed loop filter and the lid if
23:04.8
23:09.4
you could see the picture if you can go
to my show notes page and look at the
23:09.4
23:13.4
presentation that I put on my show notes
page it’s the same presentation that I
23:13.4
23:18.2
gave at the association of water
technologies convention you will see the
23:18.2
23:23.9
most beautiful black magnetite you have
ever seen in your life and you folks out
23:23.9
23:29.6
there as water treaters I know you feel
the same way that is water treaters
23:29.6
23:36.3
nirvana it’s that beautiful dark dull
magnetite color that we all aspire to
23:36.3
23:40.1
get because we know that that’s allowing
us to corrode the metal so we don’t
23:40.1
23:43.8
corrode the metal further I love saying
that to new water triggers it just makes
23:43.8
23:47.7
their heads pop off so we got a picture
of that up there and we also have
23:47.7
23:54.4
pictures of the filter bags every single
time we service this account we were
23:54.4
23:58.6
servicing it on a weekly to every two
week basis and then we drop down to
23:58.6
24:04.2
every month and the first thing that we
noticed was when we flushed the water
24:04.2
24:09.1
through the system the first thing that
we noticed when we flush the system is
24:09.1
24:13.9
we had very clear water of course that
you would probably anticipate that well
24:13.9
24:20.5
it took about two and a half days for us
to flush the system and that beautiful
24:20.5
24:26.2
black magnetite lid that I was telling
you about now has rust spots on it so
24:26.2
24:30.4
folks if you ever run
product you have a leak in your system
24:30.4
24:33.7
you think oh I’m just going to get to
that next month or the customer doesn’t
24:33.7
24:38.5
think it’s important for them to tell
you that they just lost a bunch of water
24:38.5
24:44.7
in their closed-loop system if you look
at this lid and compare two days before
24:44.7
24:49.4
and two days after I guess it was almost
three days before and after you will see
24:49.4
24:58.5
that there is obvious orange rust on
that lid it does not take long for us to
24:58.5
25:03.3
damage that nice protective coating that
we have in the system so it is
25:03.3
25:08.9
imperative that when we treat the system
we treat the system all the time that
25:08.9
25:15.3
being said we went ahead and we put the
750 ppm dose after we flushed that
25:15.3
25:22.4
system and we let that go for about two
weeks when we came back that nice clear
25:22.4
25:29.6
water that we left the system with was
now tinted black now it wasn’t black
25:29.6
25:35.2
black you still see through it and then
our filter that we had had a black
25:35.2
25:39.8
surface on it that you could see all the
things that were in there that it was
25:39.8
25:45.3
filtering out now more on that later but
again just some observations and I’ve
25:45.3
25:49.8
got all my filters in the presentation
for you to go to my show notes and look
25:49.8
25:54.1
at so you can see exactly what I’m
looking at now so then after we drain
25:54.1
25:58.3
all of our tests and we had we ran some
tests like we would normally run on a
25:58.3
26:02.2
closed loop but then we also ran the
filming amine test and we got absolutely
26:02.2
26:08.5
no filming amine in the system we then
added an additional seven hundred and
26:08.5
26:12.9
fifty parts-per-million of filming a
mean to the system so that gave us a
26:12.9
26:20.9
part per million total of 1500 parts per
million of our filming amine product so
26:20.9
26:27.8
two weeks later we came back and the
water was even darker and we did have a
26:27.8
26:35.2
positive for the filming amine test and
folks I will let you know that each one
26:35.2
26:40.3
of those tests that we use work
extremely well and a lot of us are
26:40.3
26:44.7
trying to get a residual number
off of that test and I really think
26:44.7
26:49.3
you’re going to make yourself go mad if
you do that we were not able to repeat
26:49.3
26:52.7
those results now what I mean by that is
you go ahead and you set up your test
26:52.7
26:56.9
and then you put it in a
spectrophotometer and it tells you you
26:56.9
27:01.8
have so many parts per million of
filming I mean I’m here to tell you that
27:01.8
27:07.5
every single one of the tests that we
ran did very well of saying that there
27:07.5
27:13.2
was a positive residual in the system
I’m also here telling you that every
27:13.2
27:19.0
single one of the tests that we ran did
a horrible job of telling you how much
27:19.0
27:24.4
of a residual that is so here’s probably
what you’re saying well trace I need to
27:24.4
27:28.9
know how much of a residual that is
because my company has those parameters
27:28.9
27:34.8
and I need to either add or not add
based on what those parameters are well
27:34.8
27:40.3
folks I was not able to duplicate any
results where I feel comfortable or
27:40.3
27:45.0
anybody on my team feels comfortable
that any of the results that you’re
27:45.0
27:49.2
going to get after you put that prepared
sample in your spectrophotometer is
27:49.2
27:55.8
worth anything and here’s why I say that
we wouldn’t just test one sample I would
27:55.8
28:01.7
have 10 samples in front of me and I
would do them spaced apart so not a lot
28:01.7
28:08.0
of time went by and I could not get a
repeatable result and then if I continue
28:08.0
28:16.9
to test the same vial I got different
results so here’s how I say to use the
28:16.9
28:22.6
filming amine test which again whichever
one you use works well if you use it
28:22.6
28:29.8
like this use it as a go/no-go test if
you have a positive for a filming amine
28:29.8
28:34.5
what that means is is that the filming
amine has coated the entire metal
28:34.5
28:42.1
surfaces in the entire system and now
you have a residual left over that’s
28:42.1
28:47.7
what we’re going for you need a residual
so how much of a residual you have well
28:47.7
28:52.1
here’s how I gauge that if you have and
most of the tests are pink if yours
28:52.1
28:56.5
isn’t whatever color it is let’s just
substitute the word pink for what
28:56.5
29:01.9
that color that is if it is a little bit
pink it means you have a little bit of
29:01.9
29:08.1
residual if you have a lot of pink you
have a lot of residual now how much of
29:08.1
29:12.6
either of those I don’t know but the
whole point is you just need to make
29:12.6
29:18.2
sure you have a residual and that means
that if the coating somewhere in your
29:18.2
29:24.2
system gets rubbed off you have plenty
to replace it now we did not have a
29:24.2
29:30.5
residual when we put 750 in but we did
have a slight residual when we put 1500
29:30.5
29:36.5
in alright so here it is the fourth week
and we’ve got 1500 parts per million of
29:36.5
29:43.0
our product in the system came back for
the third time and we added an
29:43.0
29:49.1
additional seven hundred and 50 ppm
after we ran our test so now after six
29:49.1
29:53.2
weeks we have a total of two thousand
two hundred and fifty parts-per-million
29:53.2
30:00.7
in the system so and we got a positive
residual for that and you’ll see that
30:00.7
30:04.6
the sample that we have for that looked
pretty much exactly the same as the
30:04.6
30:10.0
sample before that and we did get a
positive result with that on our amine
30:10.0
30:17.6
test well then we had a little issue we
had a system leak and it was nothing to
30:17.6
30:22.8
do with the product our customer had an
issue with a part of their system they
30:22.8
30:28.1
got a contractor to come in and they
pretty much sprung a leak and evacuated
30:28.1
30:35.4
everything that was in the system now
this happened the very next day from the
30:35.4
30:41.2
dose from the service visit that I just
told you about so of course the customer
30:41.2
30:45.5
was very diligent and they knew how
valuable water treatment was so they
30:45.5
30:49.8
called us immediately and said that
there was a leak in the system and we
30:49.8
30:53.8
needed to come out and of course since
we were running that test and they knew
30:53.8
30:57.1
that we were running that test they
didn’t want to skew any of our data so
30:57.1
31:01.0
they called us the second that had
happened I know you’re laughing because
31:01.0
31:05.9
that did not happen
folks we found out about this leak when
31:05.9
31:09.9
we came back two weeks later so now this
is supposed to be two months into the
31:09.9
31:12.8
test
and we had absolutely nothing in the
31:12.8
31:21.2
system and the system was orange in
color we had so much iron in the water
31:21.2
31:27.3
we diluted it so many times and I think
after we diluted it I’m not even gonna
31:27.3
31:33.0
guess we diluted it so many times and we
still could not get a proper iron
31:33.0
31:37.6
residual in the system so we just said
hey there’s a lot of iron in the system
31:37.6
31:43.0
and we of course needed to flush that
out so we thought we were right there we
31:43.0
31:48.4
could start running the test at 3,000
ppm of course we went back to zero and
31:48.4
31:55.0
we had this orange look in water so what
we then did is we flushed that out and
31:55.0
31:59.7
we had a pretty gnarly looking filter
there so once all that water came out of
31:59.7
32:03.4
the system and of course the water was
flowing in a pattern that it wasn’t used
32:03.4
32:06.8
to flowing so that broke up a lot of
stuff keeping in mind that the filming
32:06.8
32:11.3
amine was already working on cleaning up
that stuff so there was a lot of stuff
32:11.3
32:16.6
in the system I think all in all it
probably worked out well but it would
32:16.6
32:19.9
have been great just to see what the
filming mean could have done without
32:19.9
32:25.7
that extra flush Murphy is always worked
into everything that you do and he was
32:25.7
32:31.9
present on this test as well so I have a
picture of that filter bag that we
32:31.9
32:35.4
pulled out there if you want to look at
that and then of course as I said we
32:35.4
32:39.6
flushed the system again and then we
wanted to get results so we had some
32:39.6
32:44.6
results at 750 ppm every two weeks and
we said you know what we’re gonna go
32:44.6
32:50.9
ahead and we’re going to put 1,500 parts
per million of our auto therm FS 500 are
32:50.9
32:56.4
filming a mean closed-loop boiler with
aluminum product into the system so we
32:56.4
33:01.6
did that we came back two weeks later we
did have a positive on our filming a
33:01.6
33:08.5
mean test and we went ahead and put our
final 1500 ppm of our filming amine so
33:08.5
33:14.3
folks we finally did it it took us three
months but we finally got to 3,000 ppm
33:14.3
33:21.2
and as you are probably asking well
trace what about the PTSA that you blend
33:21.2
33:27.6
it in the product well very close
to the start of our test we learned that
33:27.6
33:34.6
filming a mean and PTSA does not play
well together so the way everything was
33:34.6
33:41.4
blended into the system by weight by
math when we had three thousand key p.m.
33:41.4
33:49.8
of product into the system we should get
one hundred parts per billion of PTSA
33:49.8
33:57.3
well folks when we put 750 parts per
million of our filming a mean product
33:57.3
34:03.5
into the system we were well over the
limit of our fluorometer and I believe
34:03.5
34:07.9
that goes up to three hundred and thirty
parts per billion and it was way over
34:07.9
34:14.4
that range so what we learned is that
those who do not play well together and
34:14.4
34:21.3
I have sense the AWT convention I’ve
been in my lab and I can tell you that
34:21.3
34:27.0
PTSA and filming Amin are not linear so
I can’t say add this much and you’ll get
34:27.0
34:32.4
this result because it is all over the
place so if there is an equation to
34:32.4
34:37.8
figure that out I have not figured that
out yet and I know Jim Luca nitch friend
34:37.8
34:41.8
of the show
friend of mine he is doing some similar
34:41.8
34:46.8
experiments so when we get together for
technical training we said we were going
34:46.8
34:52.5
to share a beverage and talk about what
our results were and see if we can
34:52.5
34:55.5
collaborate and get some more
information to the Scaling UP! Nation
34:55.5
35:01.9
but for now PTSA and filming Amin they
do not like each other you will not get
35:01.9
35:06.5
a good result now we have three thousand
parts-per-million of our filming I mean
35:06.5
35:12.5
in the system so we’re just running our
coupons and keep in mind we had a set of
35:12.5
35:19.5
coupons through the entire process that
I told you about now if you go to the
35:19.5
35:26.8
show notes page for this episode you
will see that all of the water samples
35:26.8
35:31.2
are listed there you can see the colors
of those you can also see all of the
35:31.2
35:37.5
filters that we tested you can also see
all of the filters that we pulled out of
35:37.5
35:40.1
the
system now keep in mind the filters that
35:40.1
35:44.0
you’re going to see there there are a
couple of days old when you first look
35:44.0
35:48.9
at the filters and they’re wet they were
black they were that dull black color
35:48.9
35:54.9
and after a couple days they would turn
orange color almost as if they rusted
35:54.9
35:59.6
because that’s exactly what they did now
the reason I put all rust color are all
35:59.6
36:04.9
dry filters in my presentation is
because on one of the trips that we had
36:04.9
36:13.2
we forgot to get a picture of the filter
as it came out of the filter vessel so I
36:13.2
36:19.2
wanted to make everything line up so
everything is the same exposure where
36:19.2
36:22.7
they’re all they’re all taking pictures
of dry so hopefully that makes sense I
36:22.7
36:26.3
just wanted to make sure that everything
was the same and you will also notice
36:26.3
36:34.0
that the nice black surface on the lid
of the filter feeder of course that was
36:34.0
36:40.2
the magnetite you can see that that is
getting stripped off so exactly what we
36:40.2
36:45.3
thought was gonna happen that anything
that was on a metal surface anything
36:45.3
36:50.2
between that metal surface and the
filming I mean that filming amine is
36:50.2
36:57.0
going to clean that off including our
previous corrosion protection so you can
36:57.0
37:02.4
see that very thing happening as you see
my presentation on my show notes page
37:02.4
37:09.6
and you can see on I went ahead and
threw some syringe filters you can see
37:09.6
37:14.9
when we filtered out the water that had
a black tinge through it it looked
37:14.9
37:21.2
exactly like the filters when we
originally took those out so I am some
37:21.2
37:29.0
izing that that is the magnetite getting
cleaned off of the surfaces so we had
37:29.0
37:34.1
this system running for about six months
we had the initial set of coupons and
37:34.1
37:38.7
then once we got about a month’s worth
of data
37:38.7
37:44.2
at three thousand parts-per-million we
added a second set of coupons and then
37:44.2
37:48.9
about every 90 days we changed those
coupons out and folks I’m gonna tell you
37:48.9
37:54.4
we got some really good
coupon results and they were good all
37:54.4
37:58.5
across the board in all the metallurgies
that we tested and that was copper mild
37:58.5
38:05.8
steel and aluminum but I’m also here to
tell you that we got good results with
38:05.8
38:12.6
our original product that we were using
as well so the question that people at
38:12.6
38:17.4
the AWT asked me was do I like this
product and you know water traders
38:17.4
38:21.7
always ask that question that’s such an
arbitrary question yeah like the way it
38:21.7
38:24.9
wears its hair you know it’s really got
a really good label what exactly does
38:24.9
38:30.0
like mean I want to be asked the
question does this product work more
38:30.0
38:37.7
specifically does this product work as
good or better than your existing
38:37.7
38:45.0
product that you were using in the
system and I would say yes it did but of
38:45.0
38:50.6
course with that comes a higher price
tag so it was at least four times more
38:50.6
38:55.4
expensive than the product that I was
using before and it was a closed-loop
38:55.4
38:59.7
system and if you look at the corrosion
coupon results side-by-side which you
38:59.7
39:05.7
can on my show notes page you will see
that they’re not that much better I mean
39:05.7
39:12.3
we’re talking about thousandth of a
point when we’re talking about mils per
39:12.3
39:16.7
year by the way corrosion coupons are
measured in mils per year what the heck
39:16.7
39:23.3
is a mils per year well it’s one
thousandth of an inch lost in metal per
39:23.3
39:30.1
year so now you know what a mils per
year is and we did get better results
39:30.1
39:36.4
but again they were just so close that
if you didn’t have a problem that you
39:36.4
39:43.0
were chasing that your regular product
was not able to solve then that’s when
39:43.0
39:48.5
we go to this product now I will tell
you we have some extremely high
39:48.5
39:54.8
temperature systems that there is no way
that we would be able to run without
39:54.8
40:00.7
scaling some of the things that are in
our other products and we use filming
40:00.7
40:04.3
amines there and we use them very well
and there’s date
40:04.3
40:10.9
to support that the hotter the surfaces
the better the filming amines work so I
40:10.9
40:17.3
hope you see that I didn’t do anything
spectacular with this test and a lot of
40:17.3
40:22.4
you have written in or called me or
talked to me on the floor of the AWT and
40:22.4
40:29.8
let me know how much you appreciated the
phosphate episode that I did when I was
40:29.8
40:36.7
trying to see if the phosphate pens the
SteriPEN z’ worked or not and I just
40:36.7
40:41.4
simply said okay well how am I going to
test that what do I know what am i
40:41.4
40:46.3
trying to find out and how do I
eliminate as many variables as possible
40:46.3
40:49.4
if you guys have not listened to that
show
40:49.4
40:53.1
maybe you should go listen to that show
as well that was one of my favorite
40:53.1
40:58.4
shows to put together so let me know if
you like that but as far as this one
40:58.4
41:04.1
goes I really enjoyed using the filming
I mean product I like using the filming
41:04.1
41:08.8
to mean product it is a great cleaner of
course our product has some cleaners in
41:08.8
41:14.2
it as well it inhibits differently so we
inhibit by that magnetite film we
41:14.2
41:19.6
inhibit by putting a protective coating
once we have that nitrite in the system
41:19.6
41:24.6
well this kind of does the same thing
but it does it indiscriminately which
41:24.6
41:31.7
means it’s going to coat it’s going to
film the entire surface so that was a
41:31.7
41:36.3
closed loop system that we tried it out
in we also did some tests on some
41:36.3
41:40.8
cooling tower systems and if you guys
are wondering the product that we use
41:40.8
41:45.0
for that again our friends at Odyssey
helped us out with that so we use their
41:45.0
41:49.0
autograph p31
and that actually has a bit of
41:49.0
41:55.2
phosphonate in it so it allowed us a
different parameter to test for now
41:55.2
42:01.3
we’ve been using that on an extremely
hot system that we would have no hope of
42:01.3
42:07.6
putting any of our regular phosphate
based programs in the system because we
42:07.6
42:14.0
would be getting scale well with this we
have been getting great results and it’s
42:14.0
42:17.9
it’s a molding facility and when they
take those molds
42:17.9
42:23.8
part they are really clean they look
really good so again these products are
42:23.8
42:31.2
available to you if you are going to try
them out talk to somebody that you trust
42:31.2
42:36.6
that can give you real data my biggest
pet peeve and I have so many in the
42:36.6
42:42.2
water treatment industry is when people
say they like something well folks give
42:42.2
42:47.2
us data let us know what the corrosion
coupons look like let us know what
42:47.2
42:52.9
studies you did let us know what the
situation was on that system before you
42:52.9
42:57.2
replaced it with this new product and
that’s what I tried to do in this
42:57.2
43:02.9
experiment and because we did this we
felt really good at this one system so
43:02.9
43:08.0
we tried it in a couple of other systems
we’ve had good results in every single
43:08.0
43:14.5
one of our systems without a doubt we
have no issue using this product and by
43:14.5
43:19.4
the way we used Odysseys product on this
test but we’ve also used some of the
43:19.4
43:25.4
other products with some other accounts
that we have they all work very well it
43:25.4
43:32.4
just happens to be where you purchase
them from so with that I hope that this
43:32.4
43:38.4
helps you understand how we set up a
test for filming amines that just
43:38.4
43:42.8
because we got good results in our
filming amine test does not mean that
43:42.8
43:46.9
you’re gonna get the same results in
your system because you might have
43:46.9
43:51.5
totally different parameters but you’re
thinking about that now and now you’re
43:51.5
43:55.2
thinking about how much water to
actually need to treat am i putting the
43:55.2
43:59.6
right amount in the days of a fig Allen
is good then five gallons has to be
43:59.6
44:05.0
better folks that is not treating water
please don’t do that please start
44:05.0
44:10.6
figuring out how many gallons of water
that you are treating and then treat for
44:10.6
44:17.1
that find a test that you really believe
in and know how to work and know how to
44:17.1
44:21.3
interpret what happens when the test
shows this color instead of that color
44:21.3
44:24.9
do you know why it does that
if you don’t try to figure that out
44:24.9
44:29.1
because the better you know the test the
better you are going to be able to
44:29.1
44:33.3
interpret results and
better you interpret results that better
44:33.3
44:37.7
you are going to run that program for
that customer and then of course that
44:37.7
44:40.8
customer will love you and he will give
you more business and he will give you
44:40.8
44:45.0
referrals and you will be a happy water
treater to live a very very very long
44:45.0
44:50.0
time folks this was so fun to put this
together I hope you enjoyed this verbal
44:50.0
44:57.1
presentation of the presentation that I
gave with visual aids at the 2018 AWT
44:57.1
45:02.6
convention and Expo as I said this will
be on my show notes page so feel free to
45:02.6
45:07.4
look at my presentation and if you have
something that you want me to look into
45:07.4
45:13.3
a question a product whatever that is
let me know and maybe we can do another
45:13.3
45:21.7
one of these on Scaling UP! H2O I’ll talk
to you next week folks