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0:08.0
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welcome to Scaling UP! h2o the podcast
for water treater by water treaters
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0:17.3
where we’re Scaling UP! on knowledge so
we don’t Scaling UP! our systems hi
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everybody
tres Blackmore here your host for
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0:27.5
Scaling UP! h2o and folks there is no
doubt about it if you are a water
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0:34.3
treated a you are familiar with the word
Legionella and by the way if you are a
0:34.3
0:41.4
water treated a and you have never heard
about Legionella you need to learn about
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0:48.7
Legionella now so many of our customers
are just as confused as some of our
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0:57.2
water treatment partners are it’s no
wonder to see why this is such a topic
0:57.2
1:03.7
that people are so mixed up on so what
I’m hoping to do today is dispel some of
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1:10.0
the myths around water management
programs and of course that deals with
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1:16.0
how we are going to protect the
population with Legionella now one of
1:16.0
1:21.6
the biggest myths is I’m paying for a
water treatment program so that means it
1:21.6
1:27.9
automatically includes a Legionella due
diligent program or a water management
1:27.9
1:36.3
plan folks that is not the case the game
has been changed with how we do water
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1:43.0
treatment and now in addition to keeping
the system clean free from corrosion
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1:49.7
scaling general microbial control and
then dirt and debris we are now adding
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1:57.1
this fifth leg to it which is Legionella
in Legionella prevention in order to do
1:57.1
2:01.4
that we have to have a conversation with
our customer and we need to let them
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2:07.8
know that this is up and above a regular
water treatment program and there are
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2:14.0
certain standards out there that our
customer needs to know about and for
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2:20.8
them just to put that back on us isn’t
going to fulfill those standards
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2:24.4
so folks here is what we are going to do
today
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2:31.2
Legionella expert Matt for eg of HC info
is coming on and he’s going to talk
2:31.2
2:36.6
about building a water management
program I am sure that this is an
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2:41.4
episode that you will listen to multiple
times because there’s going to be some
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2:46.6
great information on it so let’s go
ahead and get started so everybody
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2:54.2
welcome Matt for reaching my lab partner
today is Matt for eg of HC info Matt’s
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3:00.7
so excited to have you on Scaling UP!
today how are you good thanks glad to be
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3:04.8
here well Matt we are going to be
talking about the wonderful world of
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3:09.6
Legionella I can’t think of another
topic that I get more questions on this
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3:15.5
show about so I know listeners cannot
wait to get to the meat of this subject
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3:19.5
matter but before we do that I was
hoping you would introduce yourself a
3:19.5
3:24.0
bit to the Scaling UP! nation I wouldn’t
CL have lived here for about two years
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3:30.2
after moving from San Diego and growing
up in the Midwest and my career has
3:30.2
3:36.3
focused on Legionella specifically at
least since about 1995 I’ve done
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3:42.2
consulting and written and spoken on the
topic and so I talk about it a lot and
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3:46.5
I’m ready to do that today all right
well we are not going to disappoint
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3:51.1
because we’re going to talk a lot about
Legionella before we get into topics
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3:56.7
like ashtrays 188 I thought we could we
could start from the very beginning what
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4:02.1
exactly is Legionella why is the water
treatment communities so concerned about
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4:05.1
it how does somebody get Legionella
let’s just start there
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4:11.0
okay well Legionella is a type of
bacteria it can grow naturally in water
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4:16.0
but it is a problem especially in
manmade water systems like plumbing
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4:21.7
systems and equipment in general so
people can can get sick from it when
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4:26.3
they inhale it or if it gets aspirated
into their lungs like choked into their
4:26.3
4:30.9
lungs doesn’t it’s not a problem just
going into the stomach but when it gets
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4:34.5
into the lungs that can cause
generis disease is the most common
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4:39.6
illness of the most serious illness that
it causes and so because it’s a building
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4:46.5
water issue as opposed to more of a
public order supply or a natural water
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4:52.7
problem then that’s why it is so
important to to water treaters and
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4:56.5
really anybody who’s involved in
managing buildings it can be contracted
4:56.5
5:03.3
by using a sink by using a faucet
washing your hands walking by a cooling
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5:08.4
tower or a decorative fountain certainly
using a real pool spa but even if you’re
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5:13.0
in the vicinity of a whirlpool spa you
can contract of Legionella infection
5:13.0
5:17.1
from the water in fact I got an email or
website inquiry or there’s some kind of
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5:22.1
a message from somebody just this week
who contracted a case of Legionnaires
5:22.1
5:26.6
disease last year and she’s just certain
she got it from a whirlpool spa to
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5:30.4
hotels she but she said she wasn’t in
she was just sitting by it for about 30
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5:35.9
minutes and she said can I get it just
by sitting by and I said yeah I mean
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5:41.4
cases have been associated even with
just walking through an exhibit hall
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5:47.4
that had a whirlpool spa on display a
number of people over 200 in fact a few
5:47.4
5:50.7
years ago and the Netherlands contracted
Legionnaires disease that way from a
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5:55.2
whirlpool spa well you mentioned so many
devices you mentioned the the spa you
5:55.2
6:02.0
mentioned the domestic water all the
water systems within the building why
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6:07.3
does the cooling tower get so much
attention outbreaks years ago were
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6:12.5
blamed almost exclusively on cooling
towers it goes back to the to the
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6:17.4
outbreak that led to the discovery of
Legionnaires disease in 1976 which
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6:22.2
although the investigation didn’t
absolutely confirm the source it was
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6:26.8
believed to be the cooling tower at the
hotel in Philadelphia so ever since then
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6:30.6
there was a lot of focus on cooling
towers even though it’s been since the
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6:36.2
1980s mid 1980s that plumbing systems
were found to be associated with
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6:41.8
Legionnaires disease and and now data is
pretty clear that plumbing systems are
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6:46.2
domestic water systems are the primary
source in terms of number of
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6:50.8
but cooling towers get a lot of
attention because they are typically
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6:55.8
associated with the larger outbreaks
that make the news and that’s part of it
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7:00.5
and part of it is just misinformation
it’s it’s there’s not the awareness that
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7:06.7
other types of water systems especially
plumbing systems and whirlpool spas are
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7:13.6
equally if not more of a concern that
cooling towers in 2015 ASHRAE came out
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7:22.1
with their document 188 that told the
world how to or that they needed a water
7:22.1
7:27.5
management plan I was hoping we could
talk a little bit around ASHRAE 188 and
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7:34.4
what a water management plan is okay
well a water management plan at least
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7:40.3
the type that is outlined in ASHRAE 188
which is also basically the same type
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7:46.0
that is described by the World Health
Organization in its 2007 documentary
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7:52.2
South administration and its 2014
document yes it’s basically a plan for
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7:56.7
how you are going to manage water
systems in a building to minimize risk
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8:00.7
in this case minimize the risk of
Legionella so it has or should have
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8:05.4
maintenance and operation procedures
which are usually referred to as control
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8:11.2
measures the framework outlined in
ASHRAE 188 also calls for a description
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8:17.0
of the water systems including flow
diagrams and then ways of determining
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8:21.0
whether the control measures are
implemented properly monitoring them
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8:28.2
having limits and and corrective actions
if those performance limits are not met
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8:33.5
so basically Ashbury 188 says large
buildings that gives some criteria for
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8:37.1
which one should and should happen but
basically large buildings should have a
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8:40.8
water management program to minimize the
risk of Legionella and it gives a
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8:45.9
framework with essential elements that
those plants should have well I think
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8:51.0
that covers the baseline of Legionella
ASHRAE 188 and and I just want to make
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8:56.0
sure that the entire audience is brought
into the conversation but
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8:59.4
I got to tell you if you’re a water
treat are out there and you have not
8:59.4
9:04.7
heard of these things maybe you should
consider retail I can’t imagine you know
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9:10.5
not not knowing about these items so I
think the whole audience is with us now
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9:15.8
we went out we spoke to a customer or a
customer spoke with us and they said you
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9:19.8
know we’ve heard about these items
you’re the water treatment professional
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9:25.7
we want to engage you your company your
services and we want you to help guide
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9:32.9
us through what we need to do to get a
water management plan now what do we do
9:32.9
9:38.1
well the most important part of a water
management plan are the control measures
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9:43.1
the the procedures whether they’re
maintenance or operation or having to do
9:43.1
9:46.9
with design and construction to minimize
the risk of disease these other
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9:51.3
components that are outlined in ASHRAE
188 like the flow diagrams and a
9:51.3
9:56.6
description of the system those are
important elements but they don’t
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10:01.1
prevent disease what prevents disease
what reduces risk are those procedures
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10:05.6
so the first question that the water
treatment company or person or whatever
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10:11.0
type of professional would need to
consider is are they able to come up
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10:17.1
with those control measures so you can
survey a site and gather information on
10:17.1
10:20.8
the water systems but if you don’t know
what to tell the owner to do about those
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10:25.5
water systems the plan you provide will
be inadequate so I think that’s the
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10:30.9
first thing to consider is what role
does the company want to play in water
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10:34.7
management programs is it just to go out
and survey the site is it actually to
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10:38.7
write the plans do you need to partner
with another company what training do
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10:42.9
you need but if you want me to answer
the question on the assumption of the
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10:46.9
that the water treater already has that
expertise I can do that but I just
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10:51.1
wanted to make that clarification no I
think that’s a great point and as you
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10:56.2
were speaking I thought it would be
interesting if we acknowledged how many
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11:02.0
people out there really think that
they’re doing something for Legionella I
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11:05.7
don’t know if they think they’re
following the the guidelines or the
11:05.7
11:10.2
spirit of ASHRAE 188 or because
haven’t read it but there’s so many
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11:14.2
people out there that will test
Legionella once a year and then they’re
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11:19.5
hoping that at zero and then that’s all
that they do do you see that as much as
11:19.5
11:25.9
I do around our area here I hear about
that yes it’s it’s misunderstanding of
11:25.9
11:30.8
of some sort and this this have kurz
with a lot of hospitals I hear where
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11:36.2
they will test for Legionella thinking
that’s a plan but testing for Legionella
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11:40.0
although it can be a good thing that’s
not a water management program that’s
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11:44.7
actually just the validation piece of
water management program so that the
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11:49.6
program or the the plan itself are the
maintenance procedures what you’re going
11:49.6
11:55.0
to do to the water to minimize risk
testing for Legionella is just a way to
11:55.0
11:59.1
validate whether those procedures you
are implementing are being effective or
11:59.1
12:06.1
not so it’s not a plan at all simply to
test and really have no overall plan for
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12:10.7
minimizing risk or even for responding
to the results and then there are there
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12:16.2
are some facilities that will draft a
couple of pages of fake policies like
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12:21.5
minimize stagnation or keep temperatures
at a certain level something like that
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12:26.3
that’s not specific and they think
that’s their plan but what’s happening
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12:31.3
now because of the the Centers for
Medicare and Medicaid Services
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12:37.4
requirement is that now these hospitals
and nursing homes are being inspected
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12:42.8
and they’re being cited for having
inadequate plans so I mean a lot of
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12:46.5
these problems are occurring but I
believe things are heading in the right
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12:51.6
direction so some of these facilities do
not have adequate plans even though they
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12:55.5
might think they do but they’re finding
out they don’t I think things are at
12:55.5
12:58.8
least heading in the right direction in
that respect well that’s good to hear
12:58.8
13:04.6
you asked a question earlier I think we
should proceed as if the people in the
13:04.6
13:09.4
Scaling UP! nation have received some
sort of training and then we can move
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13:14.5
forward there but before we get there if
somebody hasn’t how could they receive
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13:20.1
such a training well I mean the way my
company works we have
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13:25.5
we have online training courses that
that well I’m a number of subjects
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13:30.4
related to Legionella but specifically
on how to conduct a site survey what to
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13:36.5
look for it comes with a checklist what
to write down what to photograph and how
13:36.5
13:41.8
to do flow diagrams so that’s on the
survey part of it we actually don’t do
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13:46.8
training on how to write water Manor
plans instead we write them we provide
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13:51.6
the software for that and then companies
that do those surveys partner with us
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13:56.3
and use our software so they don’t have
to come up with those control measures
13:56.3
14:01.2
very few companies I know of actually
try to write their own plans try to come
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14:05.7
up with those maintenance procedures but
we provide that component and then they
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14:09.7
they can get the training to go out and
learn how to do the site surveys with a
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14:14.1
checklist at all
sampling is another part of it if if a
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14:18.2
company is going to do sampling they
should have training for that it might
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14:22.2
seem simple to fill a bottle with water
but there are a lot of really important
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14:26.5
details especially with plumbing systems
how many samples where do you collect
14:26.5
14:31.4
do you collect hot versus cold which
types of equipment should you sample the
14:31.4
14:36.5
pre flush purses post flush and those
kinds of details even recording data and
14:36.5
14:41.2
especially on interpreting results so
it’s just very important to do those
14:41.2
14:45.8
service as well
absolutely well Matt I think this is the
14:45.8
14:52.7
biggest question that plague us water
treatment folk you know we we know we
14:52.7
14:55.9
know enough to be dangerous about
Legionella some know more than others
14:55.9
15:01.8
we’re able to talk to the customer but
now they want us to actually start the
15:01.8
15:08.2
process for the plan and now it’s time
to survey what exactly is in that
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15:13.7
building and I think that’s where the
issue is most people don’t know how to
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15:19.3
properly survey and they don’t know what
to look for can we talk about that sure
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15:24.1
not everybody does it the same way and
I’m not saying there’s one way everybody
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15:28.3
should do it but I can talk a little bit
about how I do and then how the
15:28.3
15:32.4
companies that partner with us do it
basically
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15:38.1
the surveys for a water management
program are different than a risk
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15:43.3
assessment sometimes those terms gets
interchanged but they’re different terms
15:43.3
15:49.6
so if you are doing an assessment to
determine what problems are there and
15:49.6
15:55.2
what is what conditions are there on
this property that are increasing the
15:55.2
15:59.9
risk of it you know it takes more
training it takes more expertise to do
15:59.9
16:05.0
that especially with plumbing systems
but if you’re if you have a good water
16:05.0
16:10.8
management plan templates to use that
has all those control measures then
16:10.8
16:15.2
really your job for the in doing the
survey is to identify the water systems
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16:19.2
and I’m not saying that’s easy but it is
a lot easier than identifying problems
16:19.2
16:24.7
it’s basically taking an inventory so so
when you would get to the site typically
16:24.7
16:29.3
what I think is best to do to begin with
is simply to talk with the facilities
16:29.3
16:35.1
people maybe look at some drawings not
individual four by floor plans but maybe
16:35.1
16:38.6
a site drawing that shows where does the
water come in from the street because
16:38.6
16:44.0
basically you want to trace the water
from where it is coming in from the
16:44.0
16:48.4
street of the taps to the points of use
you don’t need to look at all the points
16:48.4
16:54.1
of use but you need to identify the key
points where it taps in at the street
16:54.1
16:58.7
where it enters the building where the
water heaters are some basic information
16:58.7
17:03.5
about the water heaters the type of
water heater the size the number of them
17:03.5
17:09.6
if there are redundant ones in a given
system and any key components like
17:09.6
17:13.1
central filters not too many buildings
have those like a filter for the
17:13.1
17:17.3
incoming water but if they do you would
need to identify those softeners so
17:17.3
17:22.6
that’s just the plumbing system you
would want to identify master mixing
17:22.6
17:30.2
valves like the large system type
thermostatic mixing valves the hot water
17:30.2
17:34.3
return or not and how many pumps those
are the types of things in a plumbing
17:34.3
17:38.3
system of course cooling towers and key
components of those cooling towers
17:38.3
17:43.8
decorative fountains but with respect to
ASHRAE want to eat it’s not just about
17:43.8
17:48.9
identifying water systems that
can be the source of Legionella
17:48.9
17:53.7
infections it’s about identifying all
the water systems so you also need to
17:53.7
17:59.1
identify irrigation systems fire
protection really every kind of water
17:59.1
18:05.8
system on a campus then you would draft
flow diagrams showing how those relate
18:05.8
18:10.2
to one another where the water comes in
how it flows from one system to another
18:10.2
18:14.0
very basic diagrams but they’re
important to get an overall
18:14.0
18:20.9
understanding of the flow of water
through that site that’s really the the
18:20.9
18:25.0
biggest part of the survey the then
after that it’s a matter of doing the
18:25.0
18:28.7
plan which would include the hazard
analysis you have all of these water
18:28.7
18:33.8
systems that you have identified and the
hazard analysis is really the risk
18:33.8
18:38.2
assessment part of it and you’re not
you’re not looking at these systems to
18:38.2
18:42.9
determine well does this have a problem
with it is it designed incorrectly you
18:42.9
18:47.6
don’t need to do that in fact it’s a
very important thing to understand you
18:47.6
18:50.7
don’t need to do otherwise you’re going
to go beyond the scope you really should
18:50.7
18:58.8
so you really are identifying the types
of systems that can be well really if
18:58.8
19:03.9
you’re if it’s a Legionella plan it’s
the type of system that can Harbor and
19:03.9
19:10.3
transmit regional so if it can do both
then it needs to be a control measure
19:10.3
19:14.2
you need to have control or control
location I should say you need to have
19:14.2
19:19.5
control measures for it so for example a
plumbing system is always going to be a
19:19.5
19:23.4
control location in my opinion some
might say well if it doesn’t have this
19:23.4
19:25.4
or if it doesn’t have that it doesn’t
need to be
19:25.4
19:29.5
but plumbing systems are inherently
prone to Legionella growth and
19:29.5
19:34.0
transmission to people they need to be
managed and I can give some examples of
19:34.0
19:39.0
that but but basically that’s cooling
towers do decorative fountains whirlpool
19:39.0
19:43.8
spas but not a fire protection system a
fire protection system can harbor
19:43.8
19:49.1
Legionella but transmission is very
unlikely it could occur for people who
19:49.1
19:52.2
are testing the system of course it
could occur if there if there was a fire
19:52.2
19:58.6
but it’s not a control location because
it’s really unlikely to be a source of
19:58.6
20:02.2
trench
transmission so that’s kind of the broad
20:02.2
20:07.1
brush or the overview of identifying all
the systems then identifying which ones
20:07.1
20:12.0
are control locations and then that’s
when it comes time due to write a plan
20:12.0
20:16.3
so you have to you have to come up with
a plan for for the control measures for
20:16.3
20:21.5
all those systems that are control
locations man I think what every water
20:21.5
20:27.5
treater worries about is oh my gosh what
if I missed a system what if it wasn’t
20:27.5
20:32.0
on the drawing what if it was behind a
wall that I didn’t look behind are there
20:32.0
20:38.6
are there any practices that you do that
can minimize that or or what do you do
20:38.6
20:44.8
if you do miss something well in our
system the way we work is we have a
20:44.8
20:51.6
checklist a very robust checklist and if
it’s a water treat it’s very unlikely
20:51.6
20:54.0
you’re gonna miss a cooling tower
because you probably are already
20:54.0
20:56.9
treating those cooling towers you’re not
going to miss that you’re gonna know
20:56.9
21:00.9
where those are you’re not going to miss
a plumbing system because every building
21:00.9
21:06.7
has long so I mean it’s possible that
you miss a particular part of a system
21:06.7
21:13.9
but the way our structure works is that
in our software is that if you identify
21:13.9
21:17.7
the system type you’re going to get the
control measures for that system so
21:17.7
21:21.7
you’re really not going to be on the
hook for it so it’s almost impossible to
21:21.7
21:25.5
miss a plumbing system it’s I’m very
unlikely to miss a cooling tower if you
21:25.5
21:29.3
miss a fire protection system it’s not
going to matter in terms of Legionella
21:29.3
21:33.4
risk because there aren’t control
measures for that what you’d have to be
21:33.4
21:37.1
probably most careful about believe it
or not our decorative fountains because
21:37.1
21:41.9
those are the ones that you could miss
there might be for example in a hospital
21:41.9
21:48.0
a small ornamental fountain in a
interior garden of some kind or
21:48.0
21:52.2
courtyard that that if you’re talking to
the facility’s people they just forgot
21:52.2
21:55.8
to mention you’re not going to get the
control measures for those at least
21:55.8
21:58.8
again with our software you’re not going
to get the control measures for it if
21:58.8
22:04.2
you don’t select yes for that system in
other words that it is on the campus so
22:04.2
22:11.8
then let’s say you you miss it you don’t
do that three people get sick and the
22:11.8
22:15.2
common link
for all three of those people was this
22:15.2
22:18.6
ornamental fountain that could be a
problem for the water treater I don’t
22:18.6
22:23.2
think that’s really something to fear if
you if you are using a good checklist
22:23.2
22:28.5
and another key another key way to
reduce the risk is to have the
22:28.5
22:34.2
facility’s person or somebody that at
the building sign off on your checklist
22:34.2
22:39.9
of water systems just the yes is in the
nose in ours we actually have a blank
22:39.9
22:46.1
for that a line where the facilities
person signs off and in fact our water
22:46.1
22:49.6
treatment partners are the ones who
recommended we do this we added that and
22:49.6
22:54.3
they have most of them have their
customer sign off did I find all these
22:54.3
22:59.9
systems are these yeses and those
correct and I think if you do those
22:59.9
23:03.8
things you’re very unlikely to miss
something and if you do then it’s really
23:03.8
23:09.0
you can go back look at that form and
say well the customer sign off saying I
23:09.0
23:12.6
identified these systems correctly well
I’ve actually heard of this happening
23:12.6
23:16.1
I’m not going to tell you who told me
that it happened but they were working
23:16.1
23:22.0
with a customer and they were told to
specifically ignore a particular system
23:22.0
23:25.7
we don’t want to deal with it you didn’t
see it don’t put it on the form what
23:25.7
23:30.6
advice do you have about that yeah I
just absolutely would not do it I would
23:30.6
23:35.8
not comply with that request it’s easier
I understand it’s a lot easier for me to
23:35.8
23:40.8
say than for a water treatment company
because their water treatment account
23:40.8
23:45.9
might be on the line you know they don’t
want to displease their customer but I
23:45.9
23:49.9
have actually turned down a lot of plans
especially when the New York laws were
23:49.9
23:55.0
going into effect I wouldn’t do a
cooling tower in my plan I would refuse
23:55.0
24:00.3
to do it so we did a lot of total plans
when we did the ones in New York we were
24:00.3
24:03.6
doing the whole buildings we weren’t
doing just cooling towers and I’m not
24:03.6
24:08.0
saying it’s a bad thing I mean I know
you can have sign-off sheets and ways to
24:08.0
24:11.6
protect yourself and I’m I don’t mean to
condemn people who have done that I’m
24:11.6
24:15.4
just saying that that especially in the
scenario you just gave where it seems
24:15.4
24:19.3
like there’s a particular system they
just want to exclude for whatever reason
24:19.3
24:23.9
I would simply say I can’t provide the
plan that way if it’s if it’s in our
24:23.9
24:26.5
software how we would do it is we’d say
we can provide
24:26.5
24:30.4
the whole thing for you you can then
take it out it’s in our system it’s very
24:30.4
24:34.6
easy to do that they can remove a
particular plan or even a whole water
24:34.6
24:40.0
system category if they wanted to but
I’m not going to do that for them it’s a
24:40.0
24:43.6
risk it’s it’s not the right way to do
it it’s not even good for the customer
24:43.6
24:48.0
if they are suggesting that they are
uneducated as to how to manage their
24:48.0
24:52.7
systems it’s it’s not something they
should really be afraid of to to it to
24:52.7
24:58.0
address that particular building I know
it’s it’s not always an easy situation
24:58.0
25:03.4
to deal with but that is a really
important point though for in general is
25:03.4
25:07.4
that the water treatment company it’s
another reason training is so important
25:07.4
25:12.8
is they have to know it well enough and
be confident enough that they run the
25:12.8
25:18.4
show in fact I talked about this at AWT
well it was last year last year’s
25:18.4
25:24.7
convention I think it was like nine
points to you know important points for
25:24.7
25:29.8
doing a water management plan survey and
one of them is you know you’re the
25:29.8
25:34.0
expert you’re supposed to be so you
don’t let the customer tell you how to
25:34.0
25:35.9
do it
you’re there to provide that service
25:35.9
25:40.6
you’re the expert and you deliver the
plan to them in the way it should be
25:40.6
25:45.1
done if they want to change it then it’s
they can do the changes I wouldn’t I
25:45.1
25:50.7
would not make those changes for them
Matt what are some of the most common
25:50.7
25:55.1
mistakes that you’ve seen people make
during the survey process that if we
25:55.1
25:58.9
know about them we can avoid them well
one would be what I just mentioned
25:58.9
26:04.2
giving the customer too much control
over the process for a couple of reasons
26:04.2
26:08.8
one is the one we just talked about
where they will say well we want this
26:08.8
26:12.5
done we want that done that’s not the
customer’s job you’re there to give them
26:12.5
26:17.5
a plan you give them the plan the right
way you keep control of project it’s not
26:17.5
26:23.5
only so that you make sure you deliver
the best possible plan but also you
26:23.5
26:29.2
control your time instead of you don’t
need to negotiate drafts for work you
26:29.2
26:32.5
should be in and out in one or two days
somebody in fact I was on a call this
26:32.5
26:37.2
morning with a company asking about
water management programs and they said
26:37.2
26:40.2
well we
this site they described it was an
26:40.2
26:46.7
office complex kind of a complex pretty
large development at satellite and they
26:46.7
26:49.9
said how long is this gonna take us you
know is it probably gonna take us two
26:49.9
26:53.9
months I said two days and in fact they
probably wouldn’t take a full two days
26:53.9
26:57.7
if they’re doing it well I mean this is
using our software in our system but
26:57.7
27:04.5
still you can survey that site you can
enter the water system information into
27:04.5
27:09.3
the plan software and literally finish
before you leave at the end of the
27:09.3
27:14.7
second day that’s its it not only
protects your own time it gets the plan
27:14.7
27:20.6
to the customer sooner so they can begin
implementing those measures and reducing
27:20.6
27:25.4
risk the problem with especially if
you’re doing a lot of these with going
27:25.4
27:30.6
on to the next site is it’s it’s so hard
to keep them straight you start getting
27:30.6
27:35.3
different facilities mixed up and so
it’s really better to finish one
27:35.3
27:41.3
completely then go on to the next one so
that would be one of the recommendations
27:41.3
27:44.6
of course you know get trained know what
you’re doing
27:44.6
27:48.5
define your scope well again you don’t
want to get into a risk assessment
27:48.5
27:54.0
aspects you’re not there to identify
dead legs you don’t want to put it upon
27:54.0
27:58.9
yourself to have to do that in our plans
it has measures to address dead legs
27:58.9
28:03.6
crossover lines another stagnant
conditions but it’s not the job of the
28:03.6
28:07.4
surveyor to identify all those if you
put that upon yourself you’re increasing
28:07.4
28:11.1
your risk and you’re also increasing
your time on the site and it really
28:11.1
28:15.5
doesn’t do your customer any good
because it’s better for them to identify
28:15.5
28:20.0
those things that to learn to to manage
them in the manager plan you’re telling
28:20.0
28:24.2
them how to manage those conditions it’s
not up to you to identify all of them so
28:24.2
28:29.6
it’s I would say the training really
defining the scope of the plan properly
28:29.6
28:35.2
being really thorough within that scope
but not getting outside of it and
28:35.2
28:41.4
finishing quickly you’re not negotiating
drafts you deliver a good plan help your
28:41.4
28:46.5
customer on going with the implement not
with making sure they are keeping up
28:46.5
28:49.2
with it I should say
I would suggest quarterly meetings for
28:49.2
28:52.9
that
and one final thing as I would say be
28:52.9
29:00.1
very clear about the time your job ends
in developing the plan and the customers
29:00.1
29:05.1
role begins in implementing it we
actually have a template email we use
29:05.1
29:10.5
for them or our partners have access to
that too they use it that has very
29:10.5
29:14.0
important what we think are very
important points to make and and
29:14.0
29:18.2
basically it’s saying we’re finished
thank you for the work
29:18.2
29:22.3
here’s your plan here’s how you get
access to it here’s what you need to do
29:22.3
29:28.3
to get started implementing and it’s a
very clear line between the development
29:28.3
29:33.2
of plan and the implementation of it
Matt you were very involved when New
29:33.2
29:39.9
York adopted part of ashtrays 188
obviously we’re going to have other
29:39.9
29:47.6
cities that follow suit what was learned
from what New York did and what what do
29:47.6
29:49.0
you think should have been done
differently
29:49.0
29:55.8
well I mean I give him credit that they
responded very quickly to a really bad
29:55.8
30:00.5
situation I mean it was a horrible
outbreak and I’m not gonna slap
30:00.5
30:05.2
somebody’s hand if they didn’t respond
perfectly but I think we all have to
30:05.2
30:08.6
learn from mistakes as well and and
that’s what they did do well they
30:08.6
30:11.0
responded very quickly they did
something about it
30:11.0
30:20.9
the the measures they put in place were
good in that facilities that hardly knew
30:20.9
30:24.6
they had a cooling tower let alone we’re
maintaining it or treating it properly
30:24.6
30:29.8
had to do something about it I saw so
many of these towers I mean some really
30:29.8
30:36.5
really small ones I mean ten town units
that just were not being managed at all
30:36.5
30:40.9
in small towers of course need to be
treated and maintained properly just
30:40.9
30:46.6
like large ones so it was good in that
in that cooling towers that were being
30:46.6
30:51.8
completely neglected started being
addressed I think some of them are
30:51.8
30:55.1
probably gone now the facilities
realized it’s going to be easier just to
30:55.1
30:59.5
get rid of the cooling towers and go
with air-cooled and and not have to
30:59.5
31:03.5
comply with these laws but
they’re you know they’re complying and
31:03.5
31:09.0
doing the treatment and so forth I think
one one real big problem well I mean one
31:09.0
31:12.0
really obvious problem that everybody
who knows about this is cooling tower
31:12.0
31:17.3
zone cooling towers aren’t like we
talked about a few minutes ago they’re
31:17.3
31:21.0
not the only source or even the most
important source necessarily of
31:21.0
31:25.3
Legionella infections the plumbing
systems need to be addressed and
31:25.3
31:30.6
whirlpool spas and so forth so I
wouldn’t necessarily say it’s a mistake
31:30.6
31:34.7
that it was a mistake three years ago
when they started working on these laws
31:34.7
31:40.7
but it would be it would be a mistake to
continue ignoring it did they need to it
31:40.7
31:44.0
needs to be comprehensive they need to
address all the water systems the other
31:44.0
31:49.6
the other thing and I’ve written on this
Psalm is that prescriptive meaning
31:49.6
31:57.9
detailed very detailed regulations can
be actually less protective than
31:57.9
32:03.5
principle based or outcome based
regulations so New York is very specific
32:03.5
32:09.3
in what they require for these cooling
towers contrast that with CMS which gave
32:09.3
32:15.4
basically no details at all it just said
all hospitals and nursing homes have to
32:15.4
32:20.2
set up a water management have to
implement a water master plan according
32:20.2
32:24.2
to a Sheree 188 and the CDC toolkit
effective immediately
32:24.2
32:28.4
that was basically they’ve literally had
three sentences and that’s really what
32:28.4
32:31.6
it boils down to you have to implement a
water mister plan so that’s a little
32:31.6
32:35.1
frustrating to facilities they say Oh
what do we do what do we do and it’s
32:35.1
32:38.2
taking a little bit to weed out the bad
ones
32:38.2
32:44.8
but it’s gonna work out fun with some
criteria with it so that there was an
32:44.8
32:48.9
interesting study when I was looking
into this that I read about the
32:48.9
32:56.2
contrasted prescriptive regulations used
in nursing homes in the US with
32:56.2
33:00.5
principle based or outcome based
regulations used for nursing homes in
33:00.5
33:05.2
Australia they were comparing the
outcomes after a period of time for
33:05.2
33:08.7
nursing homes following these
regulations and the ones in Australia
33:08.7
33:13.8
were doing so much better because what
happens is that when you don’t get
33:13.8
33:17.8
really prescript
it allows the people at the facility to
33:17.8
33:22.7
be more creative to kind of come up with
their own program that works so when you
33:22.7
33:27.3
first look at what some of these
differences are I mean I too laughed out
33:27.3
33:31.1
of thinking well nobody’s going to do
that’s because the Australians they had
33:31.1
33:39.0
rules like burly vague rules like serve
nutritious meals or create a home-like
33:39.0
33:43.6
environment in the nursing homes whereas
in the u.s. they had maybe a hundred
33:43.6
33:49.1
boxes to check you know to reach that
end and you would think well the
33:49.1
33:51.6
Australian nursing homes they’re just
not going to do it because they don’t
33:51.6
33:55.3
have to but what happened was they
actually did a better job because the
33:55.3
33:59.6
ones in the US they were all about just
trying to comply they were trying to
33:59.6
34:03.8
check the box so they wouldn’t get fined
and that’s what happened in New York is
34:03.8
34:08.4
that some of these facilities that had
really good water management plans that
34:08.4
34:12.7
cover not only cooling towers but
plumbing systems like they should they
34:12.7
34:18.3
were getting cited because it didn’t fit
the city’s model the inspectors didn’t
34:18.3
34:23.6
know enough to look beyond the model
plan all they could do was see if the
34:23.6
34:27.2
boxes were checked in the model plant so
if it had anything besides cooling
34:27.2
34:32.1
towers they were issuing citation
completely counter-productive to protect
34:32.1
34:38.1
against regional infections so again I
admire the the health officials
34:38.1
34:43.4
therefore as quickly as they responded
but but that’s those are a couple of the
34:43.4
34:47.1
lessons learned the other one was even
though there were really minor
34:47.1
34:52.7
differences between the state rules and
New York City rules even those small
34:52.7
34:56.6
differences were creating some confusion
so you think about if that were
34:56.6
35:03.6
magnified to several states adopting
regulations in the US and they all had
35:03.6
35:09.2
different sets of regulations and as
opposed to just saying establish a plan
35:09.2
35:12.7
based on Ashley 188 if they were all
prescriptive and they all were all
35:12.7
35:17.1
different think about some of these
property owners that have owned
35:17.1
35:22.1
properties in many different states it
would just be it would be so cumbersome
35:22.1
35:25.8
that they really wouldn’t be able to it
would be so unreasonable they wouldn’t
35:25.8
35:28.4
be able to comply so they would they
would end up
35:28.4
35:34.4
trying to find a way around it so that’s
probably the biggest concern I have
35:34.4
35:37.9
although the regulations can be really
good if they’re prescriptive and
35:37.9
35:41.6
different in each state that’s going to
from a public health standpoint I think
35:41.6
35:45.3
it’s going to do more harm than good
interesting points we’ll have to see
35:45.3
35:50.1
what develops and hopefully as new laws
come out they will they will learn from
35:50.1
35:53.5
people like yourself and of course how
that was implemented up in New York
35:53.5
36:00.0
where do you think the next city will be
where they implement something with
36:00.0
36:05.7
ASHRAE 188 well as much as I hate to say
it where there’s a big outbreak sure but
36:05.7
36:10.8
I know there’s been discussions in and I
don’t know as though it would be a city
36:10.8
36:17.0
it’s probably more likely to be a state
I know some cities have shown interest
36:17.0
36:21.6
in establishing their own regulations
like Philadelphia is one of them but I
36:21.6
36:25.8
would say it’s more States New Jersey
Minnesota Illinois because of the
36:25.8
36:32.9
veterans home situation there I believe
we’re looking into it maybe Michigan but
36:32.9
36:38.2
I don’t know I mean I don’t know where
where it actually will happen next in
36:38.2
36:45.5
fact New York State will probably make
some revisions to some upgrades so to
36:45.5
36:50.1
speak to its regulations maybe before
another state comes online with new ones
36:50.1
36:57.5
just wondering if your crystal ball was
dialed in yeah no I don’t have one now
36:57.5
37:02.4
sooner or later we’re we’re all going to
have some sort of law that we have to
37:02.4
37:06.6
deal with right now
we have time on our side where we can
37:06.6
37:11.0
work with our customers and we can help
them create these plans together what
37:11.0
37:15.5
are some things just some real quick
bullet points that we can do so we’re
37:15.5
37:21.9
not caught off guard like all of the
people were in New York well as far as
37:21.9
37:28.4
water treatment companies go thankfully
you have a great association that is
37:28.4
37:34.0
doing a really good job with education
AWT more so than any other professional
37:34.0
37:39.7
society I know in terms of Legionella
education really providing a lot of
37:39.7
37:44.8
information to its members I would
I would look there you know get educated
37:44.8
37:49.6
through AWT like I said my company has
courses and there are other sources as
37:49.6
37:57.0
well so I would say know what you need
to know know who you need to partner
37:57.0
38:01.1
with what you want to do what you don’t
want to do it’s not the same for every
38:01.1
38:05.8
company if some companies are full bore
into this they want to offer water
38:05.8
38:09.7
management programs they want to offer
all the services they it’s a big part of
38:09.7
38:14.7
their business others want to do just as
little as they possibly can and still
38:14.7
38:18.6
keep their water treatment accounts and
please their customers there’s I don’t
38:18.6
38:22.5
think there’s a right or wrong it’s just
a matter of making sure you’re taking
38:22.5
38:27.1
care of your customer and whatever way
best fits your business model so I
38:27.1
38:31.2
wouldn’t shove it under the carpet it’s
like a lot of other things that might
38:31.2
38:35.4
seem unpleasant to you if it seems
unpleasant to you we kind of put those
38:35.4
38:40.8
off we all have some of those projects I
have some now things I know I should do
38:40.8
38:45.2
and I’ve you know I need to get on it
but I wouldn’t hesitate I would just
38:45.2
38:52.5
dive in and learn what you need to learn
talk to whomever you need to and I mean
38:52.5
38:57.4
the situation in New York I know came on
really quickly you know hopefully
38:57.4
39:00.8
there’s not going to be a big outbreak
like that that’s going to require such a
39:00.8
39:07.2
fast response but in most cases if other
states develop regulations or other
39:07.2
39:13.0
cities there’s probably going to be more
lead time more warning more discussion
39:13.0
39:17.3
before you actually see that I don’t
think there’ll be a big rush but really
39:17.3
39:21.7
the private thing to do now is just to
provide water management plans for your
39:21.7
39:25.8
customers one way or another whether
it’s by referral or directly because
39:25.8
39:30.3
they should have them and then actually
I think reduces the risk you already
39:30.3
39:35.3
have treating cooling towers if if your
customer has a good water management
39:35.3
39:39.5
plan you actually reduces your water
treatment risk so you might as well go
39:39.5
39:45.3
ahead and do that now regardless of
whether regulations are adopted in your
39:45.3
39:51.3
area of service Matt that’s great advice
and folks out there in the Scaling UP!
39:51.3
39:54.2
nation you can’t keep your head in the
sand with this you’ve got
39:54.2
39:59.0
you got to do something and Matt lays
out some great things that you can do
39:59.0
40:02.7
well Matt I’m not quite done with you
yet I’ve got a couple lightning round
40:02.7
40:07.4
questions if you’ll stick around with us
just a little bit longer okay all right
40:07.4
40:13.1
so if you could go back to your first
day as you started doing water
40:13.1
40:18.0
management plans and you went back you
saw yourself and you say hey I’ve got
40:18.0
40:26.4
this great advice this is it
what would you tell yourself I think I
40:26.4
40:31.5
did some things right that I would I
would tell them I’m like don’t
40:31.5
40:36.4
compromise we talked about not
compromising on the quality of the plans
40:36.4
40:42.4
at the comprehensiveness I’m glad I
didn’t I’m glad I didn’t compromise in
40:42.4
40:49.7
order to I mean I lost a lot of sales I
could have had by doing what
40:49.7
40:52.7
somebody wanted me to do instead of what
I thought was right but I’m glad I
40:52.7
40:58.5
didn’t so I would say don’t compromise I
think for me personally it would be to
40:58.5
41:04.6
enjoy the journey more maybe that’s just
kind of a overall advice career-wise I
41:04.6
41:09.9
it’s good advice whoever you are yeah
it’s just instead of putting myself
41:09.9
41:15.7
under pressure for the end result or to
waiting until I’m finished with this or
41:15.7
41:21.3
that just to enjoy the journey ask God
about all the details and just kind of
41:21.3
41:27.1
enjoy it that was that’s what comes to
mind that I would tell myself all right
41:27.1
41:31.6
what’s the last book that you’ve read
Wow
41:31.6
41:35.9
as embarrassing it is I have probably
probably no fewer than 10 that I’m in
41:35.9
41:40.5
the middle of that I have this bad habit
of starting new ones about finishing the
41:40.5
41:47.5
other ones but 3 I’m a middle of one is
called SPQR it’s about this history of
41:47.5
41:52.7
wrong and I’ve I’ve just I’ve really
enjoyed that I’m almost finished with it
41:52.7
41:59.2
read a biography on Martin Luther King
which I really enjoyed a lot reading a
41:59.2
42:05.0
book called god is good which is kind of
is real good for perspective and one
42:05.0
42:09.4
other ones seals survival guys
I have kind of enjoyed reading about
42:09.4
42:15.5
survival techniques you know how to how
to deal with an active shooter with a
42:15.5
42:19.6
sinking ship and all these things so
those are some of the ones I’m in the
42:19.6
42:27.9
middle of it’s a very eclectic list I
like the I like the variety fair enough
42:27.9
42:32.3
obviously they’re gonna make a movie
about your life who plays Matt for eg
42:32.3
42:39.6
gosh I don’t know I don’t um certainly
not gonna hold my breath movie but I
42:39.6
42:44.2
used to have a lot of people tell me I
looked like a particular actor actually
42:44.2
42:47.6
it’s not an actor but I’ll talk show
host I don’t even want to mention his
42:47.6
42:53.6
name because he kind of fell recently
into like a lot of others did but that’s
42:53.6
42:58.4
the only one that comes to mind but I
honestly don’t know well you’re you’re
42:58.4
43:07.9
amongst friends no one’s been a judge
who was it Matt Lauer okay somebody on a
43:07.9
43:12.5
plane come up and like a two years ago
and say oh my gosh is that you or
43:12.5
43:17.2
something like well I think he’s got
some free time so maybe he can do the
43:17.2
43:25.2
movie alright so last question you can
talk with anybody throughout history who
43:25.2
43:32.1
would it be with and why I don’t know I
think it would probably be and I could
43:32.1
43:38.0
say some categories like one would be
Bible heroes like Abraham and David and
43:38.0
43:42.9
amazing things that that they did I
would want to ask them about that I read
43:42.9
43:48.1
a book another book I read that I really
enjoyed a lot recently was about John
43:48.1
43:51.8
Adams and so I think I’d want to talk to
one of our founding fathers but
43:51.8
43:58.5
particularly him I mean the sacrifices
he went through for for our country or
43:58.5
44:05.3
just it’s just it’s a it’s just
incredible and then maybe more recent
44:05.3
44:11.9
people that are heroes to me like MLK
well but yeah so I think that you know
44:11.9
44:17.6
ancient history and then founding
fathers and then some more maybe some
44:17.6
44:21.1
more recent history somebody I can’t I
can’t
44:21.1
44:24.5
down to one person though that I can
think out alright well fair enough good
44:24.5
44:29.9
choices that she gave us Matt this has
been very educational if it’s done
44:29.9
44:34.7
anything it has provoked people in the
Scaling UP! nation to get out there and
44:34.7
44:39.9
learn more about what they don’t know so
I want to thank you for coming on
44:39.9
44:45.9
Scaling UP! well thank you I enjoyed it
well Matt thanks so much for coming on
44:45.9
44:50.7
Scaling UP! h2o I know you did a huge
service today
44:50.7
44:56.7
by letting the Scaling UP! nation know
the nuts and bolts around a water
44:56.7
45:02.7
management program now with that I’m
sure you all have a lot of questions
45:02.7
45:06.5
still that we just didn’t have time to
answer so I’m going to give you a couple
45:06.5
45:12.3
of resources one if you’re new to
Legionella by all means check out one of
45:12.3
45:18.0
my most popular episodes it was with dr.
Janet stout and that was when we talked
45:18.0
45:24.8
about what Legionella is so if you go to
https://scalinguph2o.com/9 or
45:24.8
45:30.4
you go to your favorite podcast app and
look for episode 9 you will be able to
45:30.4
45:36.5
listen to that episode and I gotta tell
you that’s a great episode to share with
45:36.5
45:41.1
your customers because it’s done in a
way that’s not very threatening it’s
45:41.1
45:46.7
very educational and everybody learned
something by the end of that episode and
45:46.7
45:50.9
I got to tell you one thing that I
learned from Matt and I learned so many
45:50.9
45:55.9
things from Matt but he said don’t be
afraid to take a professional with you
45:55.9
46:03.2
and we put so much pressure on ourselves
to be the end-all be-all expert of
46:03.2
46:06.9
everything when we’re out there working
with a client well folks there is
46:06.9
46:12.2
nothing wrong with taking a professional
out there so you can learn from that
46:12.2
46:17.0
professional and make sure you’re doing
the right things the right way
46:17.0
46:21.9
especially when you’re building your
very first water management plan and
46:21.9
46:27.4
then the other most awesome piece of
advice I think he gave us was the fact
46:27.4
46:32.0
that you have to take the lead on this a
lot of times our customers aren’t as
46:32.0
46:38.7
educated on Legionella as we are and
they’re looking at a water management
46:38.7
46:45.0
plan strictly by a bottom-line mentality
and it’s up to us to make sure that we
46:45.0
46:49.5
give them the right information now it’s
their plan they can choose to do
46:49.5
46:54.3
whatever they want to do with it it’s
their building it’s their plan
46:54.3
47:00.5
but we have to make sure that all the
information comes from us and then they
47:00.5
47:05.7
can use that to make their decision so
never let the customer lead you in a
47:05.7
47:09.4
particular direction that you’re not
comfortable with or they don’t have
47:09.4
47:13.3
enough information to make a decision
make sure you’re getting that to them
47:13.3
47:18.5
now if you want to learn more about
Legionella the cdc has a Legionella
47:18.5
47:25.4
toolkit worried it really walks you
through ashtrays 188 survey process I
47:25.4
47:30.9
want to put that up on my show notes
page by all means please take a look at
47:30.9
47:37.0
that that is a great source of
information for you to start learning on
47:37.0
47:44.3
how to do some of these surveys and then
Matt for eg of HD info thank you so much
47:44.3
47:54.9
for this offer so if you go to a lamps –
HC infocom so that’s la mps – HC INF o
47:54.9
48:02.3
comm you will see a list of all of the
courses that he offers and if you have
48:02.3
48:08.0
never taken one of these courses I think
you’re going to be very happy with these
48:08.0
48:12.9
courses he offers some of the best
Legionella training programs that I’ve
48:12.9
48:17.5
seen out there in the industry so if you
go there and you put in the discount
48:17.5
48:23.9
code scalingup5 that’s scaling up
five the number five and it’s all one
48:23.9
48:31.7
word you will get a 5% discount just for
being a listener of Scaling UP! h2o so
48:31.7
48:36.6
many great courses on there I know that
you’re going to enjoy those and I know
48:36.6
48:42.0
you’re going to learn from it and you’re
going to be able to become that expert
48:42.0
48:48.0
in this subject material that I know
that you all want to become folks I
48:48.0
48:52.0
gotta tell you I wouldn’t have done
another legionella episode had it not
48:52.0
48:57.5
been for all of the right ends that I’ve
got asking questions about Legionella
48:57.5
49:02.5
asking questions about water management
plans so it is inherited that if you
49:02.5
49:07.0
have a show idea that you let me know
what that show
49:07.0
49:12.2
idea is it will do absolutely no good to
the water treatment community or
49:12.2
49:18.1
yourself if you keep that locked up in
your head so go to https://scalinguph2o.com/
49:18.1
49:24.4
and you can either go to our show ideas
page right there on the home page or you
49:24.4
49:29.6
can click on leave a voicemail and I
will record your voice right there on
49:29.6
49:34.7
the website if I use your question and
play it on the air I will send you the
49:34.7
49:39.2
most awesome Scaling UP! t-shirt
everybody wants one of those t-shirts
49:39.2
49:42.9
everybody wants to know how do I get a
t-shirt like that well that’s how you
49:42.9
49:47.9
get a t-shirt you record your question
and I use it on the air folks thanks so
49:47.9
49:51.9
much for listening to Scaling UP! h2o I
can’t wait to come to you next week on
49:51.9
49:58.4
Scaling UP! h2o have a great week folks