The following transcript is provided by YouTube. Mistakes are present. To hear the podcast episode, click HERE.
0:08.2
0:14.5
hello Scaling UP! nation Trace Blackmore
here your host for Scaling UP! h2o the
0:14.5
0:18.6
podcast where we’re Scaling UP! on
knowledge so we don’t Scaling UP! our
0:18.6
0:26.0
systems and nation I have heard you you
all have questions about filming amine
0:26.0
0:30.4
products some of us use them in boilers
some of us use them in closed-loop
0:30.4
0:36.0
systems some of us are using them in
cooling towers well what do we need to
0:36.0
0:41.2
know about using filming amine products
what do we need to know about the
0:41.2
0:47.4
systems and the products themselves I’ve
heard all types of questions and there’s
0:47.4
0:53.8
one thing for sure you can turn to
Scaling UP! h2o so you can get this
0:53.8
1:00.9
valuable information in a format that
you can use when you need it that’s of
1:00.9
1:06.5
course when you are driving to and from
accounts so folks we are going to do
1:06.5
1:12.4
that today before we get started though
I do want to let you know about a tool
1:12.4
1:17.7
that I use and I know you’ve heard about
it before but it is audible folks we are
1:17.7
1:23.6
in our car so many times throughout the
day we spend so much time in front of
1:23.6
1:30.2
our windshield that we simply don’t have
time to read as much as we want to read
1:30.2
1:34.3
well folks audible is the perfect
solution for that and if you go to
1:34.3
1:39.2
Scaling UP!
h2o dot-com forward slash audible I’ll
1:39.2
1:44.9
get you a free book and a free month you
can try audible and you can see why I
1:44.9
1:51.5
think it’s one of the best tools that I
have in my car when I’m driving to and
1:51.5
1:59.6
from accounts well folks again today we
are talking about filming amines now we
1:59.6
2:03.8
are going to have a lot of information
this is going to be a show that you’re
2:03.8
2:08.7
going to want to listen to several times
I know several of you out there in the
2:08.7
2:13.0
Scaling UP! nation say that you like
listening to these shows several times
2:13.0
2:18.4
you can get all the information I have
no doubt that this is going to be a one
2:18.4
2:23.5
of these shows
so I hope you enjoy my interview with
2:23.5
2:31.7
filming amine expert Marodi Cribari of
WST my lab partner today is Marodi
2:31.7
2:39.5
Cribari of WST Marodi how the heck are
you today thank you how are you I’m
2:39.5
2:43.4
doing superbly well thank you so much
for asking Mary I think you and I met
2:43.4
2:47.6
about two three years ago is that about
right I think so
2:47.6
2:52.3
yeah I think that yes let’s go okay
we’ll just go with that that’s what it
2:52.3
2:54.9
was I believe it was out of technical
training for the Association Water
2:54.9
3:00.2
Technologies and I gotta tell you I love
the way that you just get straight down
3:00.2
3:05.6
to the matter and you tell it like it is
you had no problem doing that with me
3:05.6
3:09.5
during my calculations class how you ask
questions and even gave me some
3:09.5
3:14.0
criticisms that I’ve I’ve changed some
of my slides for I have no doubt that
3:14.0
3:18.9
you’re going to use that to help
everybody out there in the Scaling UP!
3:18.9
3:25.5
nation understand filming amines better
uh well hopefully hopefully that’s how
3:25.5
3:31.4
everybody else walks away from my
engaging I’m sure everybody will love it
3:31.4
3:34.8
and you know talk about filming the
means there so you asked a water
3:34.8
3:38.8
treating amines us ten water treaters
you’re gonna get ten different answers
3:38.8
3:45.8
there’s so much competing information
out there about filming amines I thought
3:45.8
3:51.2
bringing somebody like yourself who’s an
expert on that subject to answer some of
3:51.2
3:55.8
those questions and clarify what US
water treatment folk need to know about
3:55.8
3:59.8
the only that means so we can apply it
properly that’s a show that’s long
3:59.8
4:03.1
overdue so thank you so much for coming
on and helping us do that
4:03.1
4:08.1
absolutely sure do you mind letting the
Scaling UP! nation know a little bit
4:08.1
4:15.3
about yourself before we get started
sure so I am a mom and wife out of
4:15.3
4:18.8
Denver Colorado I have a degree in
biochemistry that’s what I studied in
4:18.8
4:25.9
school I spent the first gosh five six
years of my career as a bench chemist in
4:25.9
4:31.1
oil and gas doing our developing fluid
systems dealing with topside and our
4:31.1
4:34.9
whole microbial issues
really no different than we do in water
4:34.9
4:41.5
treatment and working with colloidal
particles versions so super nerdy way of
4:41.5
4:47.8
saying how do we get more oil and/or
more gas autograph and then I joined the
4:47.8
4:55.2
wst team initially in oil and gas and I
think my joining wst crashed the oil and
4:55.2
5:04.5
gas market we killed it for a year and
then I killed the market but that’s okay
5:04.5
5:09.2
because what it allowed me to do my
bosses came to me and asked me if I
5:09.2
5:13.6
would join the water treatment team they
very lovingly said we have nothing for
5:13.6
5:17.0
you to do in oil and gas how do you feel
about water treatment and I said well I
5:17.0
5:21.2
know a lot about water I don’t know you
know the ins and outs of this particular
5:21.2
5:25.6
industry but thank you very much for my
job thank you for not just letting me go
5:25.6
5:30.0
and sure I’ll do whatever you want so
basically they came to me and they said
5:30.0
5:33.8
there’s just filming a new technology
that we have and we need you to learn
5:33.8
5:37.4
absolutely everything you can and we’re
gonna put you on a team with a sales guy
5:37.4
5:43.2
and we want you two to go out and
educate the community and sell it and so
5:43.2
5:50.1
I basically spent about a year honestly
just doing nothing but being the wst
5:50.1
5:55.2
filming a mean Librarian where anything
I could get my hands on to read anybody
5:55.2
6:00.0
you that had had experience that I could
speak with that’s all I did and then it
6:00.0
6:04.7
allowed us to come out basically the
other side of that with a decent what I
6:04.7
6:09.2
would consider theoretical understanding
of the application of filming means
6:09.2
6:12.8
where they’ve been used how they’ve been
used why they’ve been used how they’ve
6:12.8
6:19.3
changed over time and then come forth to
the US market and and bring them make it
6:19.3
6:24.0
available to us here in the United
States so that’s kind of my background
6:24.0
6:29.3
and all of that I guess is that you
wanna know anything else I’m an Aries
6:29.3
6:32.8
does that matter I think that does
matter the eternal innovation was
6:32.8
6:40.3
wondering what your sign was yeah April
baby there you go merridy you were in
6:40.3
6:46.5
the audience when I did my presentation
in the 2018 AWT convention and Expo
6:46.5
6:51.3
and I think you saw there was a lot of
confusion about really what filming
6:51.3
6:56.0
amines were how to test for it you
actually got up and helped explain how I
6:56.0
7:01.6
went about my process for testing so
there’s so many questions about filming
7:01.6
7:06.3
amines it’s almost hard to figure out
where to start so I want to start at the
7:06.3
7:11.0
beginning because I can figure that
that’s the best place for it so what is
7:11.0
7:17.9
a filming a mean so do you want the
super nerdy answer well of course and
7:17.9
7:22.8
then and then we can lighten it out from
there okay so super nerdy answer a
7:22.8
7:28.1
filming amine is an organic molecule so
we have organic and inorganic chemistry
7:28.1
7:34.6
organic chemistry specifically speaking
is carbon chemistry right so it’s it’s a
7:34.6
7:40.4
molecule with a big fatty tail so
basically a big carbon chain that looks
7:40.4
7:46.3
like a big long tail and then an amine
molecule and amine itself is a in
7:46.3
7:50.4
organic chemistry we call it a
functional group okay a functional group
7:50.4
7:56.9
is just a molecule that can perform a
specific function so an amine is a
7:56.9
8:01.8
functional group carboxyl groups or
captains there’s all different types of
8:01.8
8:07.4
functional groups so a film being a mean
specifically is a molecule that’s got a
8:07.4
8:13.1
big carbon tail and then an amine head
and why that matters is that that that
8:13.1
8:18.4
big chain that big tail is what we call
hydrophobic they don’t like water okay
8:18.4
8:23.5
and then the amine heads are what we
would call hydrophilic they do like
8:23.5
8:30.4
water so it helps that molecule go into
a solution if you will so each side of
8:30.4
8:34.4
the molecule whether you’re talking
about the tail or the head can perform a
8:34.4
8:42.1
specific function a filming amine is
it’s a name that we gave a specific set
8:42.1
8:47.8
of molecules based on a function okay so
it’s nomenclature based on something
8:47.8
8:52.3
that it’s capable of doing in this case
filming lots of things formed films
8:52.3
8:56.4
right glycols can form a type of film
bzt
8:56.4
9:01.6
is actually a filming amine type
Street there’s a mean functional groups
9:01.6
9:06.4
on there it just doesn’t have the same
type of tail is when we refer to filming
9:06.4
9:12.0
in mean chemistry you also hear them
call up poly amines a poly amine is is a
9:12.0
9:17.0
name or a nomenclature based on a
structure right so poly if you remember
9:17.0
9:20.7
back to grade school when you were
learning all about prefixes and suffixes
9:20.7
9:29.3
and Latin Latin terms right poly means
many so it just means many amines so a
9:29.3
9:33.9
polyamine could mean that you have one
amine group on that tail it could mean
9:33.9
9:39.2
that you have two amine groups on that
tail right a diamine or a try and meet
9:39.2
9:46.2
mono diet rod so it’s it’s all
nomenclature based on either function or
9:46.2
9:51.3
structure and ultimately filming amines
or poly amines whatever you wanna call
9:51.3
9:56.4
in fatty acid amines they fall into a
category of in with inorganic chemistry
9:56.4
10:01.4
of organic surfactants that’s ultimately
you can you can say there’s so many
10:01.4
10:06.4
different ways to to say what they are
but you have to break down the word to
10:06.4
10:11.2
fully understand what a writer or an
author’s trying to communicate about a
10:11.2
10:16.6
specific structure does that make sense
I think it does so as us water treatment
10:16.6
10:23.4
folk used those terms interchangeably is
that okay well it is two degree like I
10:23.4
10:29.7
said polyamine means many so if you have
octave Dessel amine or Oda which is a
10:29.7
10:33.1
molecule that we’re all very very
familiar with that’s actually a mono
10:33.1
10:38.8
amine so technically speaking
categorically I mean that nomenclature
10:38.8
10:45.2
doesn’t exactly fit but what we’ve done
jargon wise as a community is accept the
10:45.2
10:48.3
word poly mean or the word film you mean
to be kind of this all-encompassing
10:48.3
10:53.1
piece there’s actually a lot of
different types of filming amines out
10:53.1
10:57.6
there there’s a lot of different
molecules that have been created and
10:57.6
11:01.9
that can serve this same filming
function so I think to use it as a
11:01.9
11:06.7
blanket statement is is fine because
it’s a word that we’ve all accepted as
11:06.7
11:12.7
appropriate but if you get super nerdy
like yours truly and you want to
11:12.7
11:17.5
down to the ins and outs and wise and
you speak to some organic chemists along
11:17.5
11:23.5
the way they might pick at you so
everybody has been so warned and armed
11:23.5
11:27.4
with the right terminology well thank
you for that definition I know that
11:27.4
11:33.4
helps you know we’re talking a lot about
a means today but is this a new
11:33.4
11:39.3
technology so filming a means actually
came about really in the 1960s like mid
11:39.3
11:48.8
1960s and honestly I don’t know the the
initial application of them or who got
11:48.8
11:52.2
you know a spark of an idea in their
brain I thought I know we could do this
11:52.2
11:58.3
what I do know if we look through the
history of them is that now 1965 that
11:58.3
12:03.4
kind of came on the scene and to be
perfectly honest they were a bit of
12:03.4
12:09.4
logistical nightmare filming amines in
their raw material form because remember
12:09.4
12:13.1
how I said they were organic surfactants
they actually come as inorganic
12:13.1
12:20.3
surfactants so it’s like a waxy block
right and how they were applied because
12:20.3
12:23.8
there was really no other understanding
of how to apply them at that point was
12:23.8
12:30.4
they that block was just dropped into
water and then you were at the mercy of
12:30.4
12:35.5
you know rate of diffusion temperature
agitation and and that really determines
12:35.5
12:40.5
how the chemistry ended up really
ultimately being applied right
12:40.5
12:45.0
you were you were at the mercy of all of
these physical characteristics and what
12:45.0
12:50.0
they found was that yeah it could be a
real problem applying it that way you
12:50.0
12:54.4
could get a lot of thunking you could
get no movement right if you if you
12:54.4
12:57.3
didn’t really have a great rate of
diffusion if you didn’t have a decent
12:57.3
13:02.1
amount of flow if there wasn’t enough
agitation on that surfactant brick then
13:02.1
13:07.7
nothing got released or maybe you had
way too much movement way too fast right
13:07.7
13:12.1
and then you ended up with kind of a
slime scenario what they realized though
13:12.1
13:16.1
is that for whatever reason even though
at the time they didn’t really
13:16.1
13:19.9
understand the rhyme or reason for how
it was functioning is that when it
13:19.9
13:26.5
worked it worked like nothing else did
so basically a team of
13:26.5
13:29.8
this team of scientists said okay well
that’s really look at this then let’s
13:29.8
13:34.0
figure out how to make this more
functional because there is potential
13:34.0
13:37.6
for the chemistry here we just have to
figure out how to make it more
13:37.6
13:44.2
user-friendly right so fast-forward to I
don’t know early maybe mid 70s and they
13:44.2
13:49.3
had really started to address the
solubility issue rather than applying it
13:49.3
13:54.7
in brick form they figure out how to get
the chemistry into solution fast forward
13:54.7
13:59.4
a little bit more and we figured out how
to not only get it into solution but
13:59.4
14:04.1
then how to apply it and really by by
2000s
14:04.1
14:08.9
I mean patents had come out well really
late 80s early 90s you really saw all of
14:08.9
14:14.2
that started to really surface not just
in formulation but in application and
14:14.2
14:19.7
then fast forward a little bit more we
figured out how to test it and I think
14:19.7
14:24.8
the biggest advancement the biggest the
biggest thing that we’ve learned to date
14:24.8
14:31.5
is that the chemistry no different
honestly no different than any other
14:31.5
14:37.1
type of chemistry the chemistry can work
the challenging piece in applying any
14:37.1
14:42.4
type of chemistry filming means included
is actually the mechanical components of
14:42.4
14:47.9
what type of system were going into
Marodi that was a great history lesson
14:47.9
14:53.2
on how amines came to where we are today
and I couldn’t help but thinking when I
14:53.2
14:59.0
was working with my father and he would
use octave Dessel amine or Oda in
14:59.0
15:04.8
boilers and he loved it and he hated it
and one of the reasons that he hated it
15:04.8
15:09.7
he would call them gumball sometimes he
would call him snot balls that he would
15:09.7
15:14.6
they would start to build on themselves
and they would clog areas when he didn’t
15:14.6
15:19.6
have that problem it treated the lines
that he was having issues with better
15:19.6
15:24.3
than anything else but a lot of people
are still thinking those are the amines
15:24.3
15:29.2
that we’re talking about right now can
you speak on that sure so I think really
15:29.2
15:35.2
it’s it’s kind of twofold the first
thing is is that imminent is possible to
15:35.2
15:39.1
overfeed something it’s possible to
overfeed any chemistry right
15:39.1
15:45.1
the reality of the situation is the the
molecule that we’re dealing with can
15:45.1
15:51.2
form a fisheye right it can the flip
side of that is exactly what your dad
15:51.2
15:55.4
was saying in that when you when you
dosed it properly you didn’t have that
15:55.4
16:01.7
that sort of issue the original molecule
the original gangster if you will is Oda
16:01.7
16:05.4
its octave Dessel to me that’s what
everyone’s familiar with an honest to
16:05.4
16:08.3
god is just because it was the first one
on the scene but it’s what people have
16:08.3
16:11.7
the most experience with is what people
have heard about little market periods
16:11.7
16:15.3
of time
however the molecules that we deal with
16:15.3
16:20.7
today there’s there’s so many different
filming amines out there some of them
16:20.7
16:26.4
like we said mono means diamines tri
means there’s Talos there’s s oxalate I
16:26.4
16:30.7
mean you could you can do so many
different things to these molecules and
16:30.7
16:36.3
we really work with cocktails of them
the the kicker is and the reason I think
16:36.3
16:43.2
we continue to hear about OD a1 is
because people have major PTSD type
16:43.2
16:47.0
responses from when they had a bad
experience and that’s understandable the
16:47.0
16:55.9
other piece of that is that OD a is the
only filmer on on the CFR whatever it
16:55.9
16:59.9
173 what’s a good number I never
remember the number for use and
16:59.9
17:07.1
application in for FDA and so if you’re
in an FDA facility whether it’s a
17:07.1
17:10.9
hospital or a food facility or something
like that where you have to conform to a
17:10.9
17:16.1
regulation and you want to use filming
technology that’s your only option what
17:16.1
17:21.2
we do know though is that the
formulations that everyone was dealing
17:21.2
17:27.5
with initially are not the formulations
that used Oda today so if the concern is
17:27.5
17:32.2
oh my gosh this happens Oda before this
will happen with Oda again I can’t say
17:32.2
17:37.2
beyond a shadow of a doubt that you may
not see movement of you know if you
17:37.2
17:41.1
overfeed a situation that there couldn’t
potentially be an issue I don’t have a
17:41.1
17:45.3
crystal ball that’s not possible but
what I can tell you is the formulations
17:45.3
17:48.5
that were originally developed or
different than the formulations with
17:48.5
17:51.0
that molecule that we use today it’s
much easy
17:51.0
17:55.8
to work with we we worked out a lot of
the kinks I will tell you from my
17:55.8
17:59.4
personal experience and some of the
tests that I’ve done I’ve tried to make
17:59.4
18:05.2
it fail and we have had a lot of
difficulty to duplicate anything like we
18:05.2
18:11.3
would see with Oda it hasn’t happened
once sure I’m truly the places in my
18:11.3
18:15.4
experience where I’ve seen it be a
challenge we haven’t had at fisheye
18:15.4
18:21.2
type or what do you call them gum Falls
sorry at home fish eyes scenario but you
18:21.2
18:26.0
can with filming it means you are gonna
Rameau belies metals that’s part of how
18:26.0
18:31.2
they function that’s part of actually
what’s great about them but if you move
18:31.2
18:36.0
if you have a really heavily corroded
environment and you move a lot of that
18:36.0
18:42.5
really fast it can get dunkey right so
knowing how to apply it and where to
18:42.5
18:46.6
apply it and what to keep an eye on and
honestly in the beginning what to apply
18:46.6
18:50.9
it potentially with to prevent that
phenomenon so that you don’t plug steam
18:50.9
18:54.9
traps so that you don’t have some of
those you know do a little preventative
18:54.9
18:58.9
so you don’t have some some of those
issues it’s just it’s all in in
18:58.9
19:03.7
understanding application that’s a great
point and as we talk today we’re going
19:03.7
19:07.4
to talk about some of those things to
make sure that we’ve got insurance so
19:07.4
19:11.4
stuff like that wouldn’t happen of
course when I was running my tests we
19:11.4
19:15.3
were doing what we knew to do to bring
the system up to a point and then we
19:15.3
19:18.9
were like okay let’s see now that
everything’s working let’s see if we can
19:18.9
19:24.2
get a failure within a controlled
situation so I’m not advising somebody
19:24.2
19:28.1
just go out there and throw a
five-gallon drum into a system and see
19:28.1
19:31.9
what happens and we’re going to talk
about all the things that the Scaling UP!
19:31.9
19:37.0
nation should be doing when they start
up a new system as we continue our
19:37.0
19:43.3
conversation all righty here is your
opportunity you get to nerd out again my
19:43.3
19:50.0
question for you is how does filming
amine work basically five shaded by we
19:50.0
19:52.6
talked about an amine being a functional
group
19:52.6
19:59.7
well that amine head whether there’s one
or up to three or a molecule right each
19:59.7
20:03.5
have little electron pairs there’s a we
call it
20:03.5
20:08.9
electron pair which is just a really
fancy way of saying a reactive area for
20:08.9
20:16.0
a particular molecule okay in those
little amines and that electron pair
20:16.0
20:20.9
likes to react with metals it doesn’t
really matter what metal but there’s
20:20.9
20:26.0
just it’s it’s a charge to type
attraction in the simplest form of of
20:26.0
20:30.6
the explanation and so the amines are
attracted to the metals and they go to
20:30.6
20:37.4
the metals pump and they pop on right
they adsorb on to the surface and then
20:37.4
20:42.2
what you end up with is all these little
tails sticking out away from them
20:42.2
20:46.1
whether it you know if you imagine the
metal surface you get all these little
20:46.1
20:50.9
amines attached to the metal and then
all of their little tails sticking up
20:50.9
20:57.2
into the center and I want you to think
military-type marching strategy okay
20:57.2
21:02.0
they’re not just kind of this haphazard
random like once here and once there and
21:02.0
21:06.1
I don’t know where the other ones are
but they line up they line themselves up
21:06.1
21:11.0
there’s this magical spacing that occurs
between the molecules themselves that
21:11.0
21:15.1
you get them adsorbed onto the surface
and then you get what we call in a minha
21:15.1
21:18.4
mean interaction so you get our
interaction between the functional
21:18.4
21:22.1
groups themselves that helps organize
them structure them and give them
21:22.1
21:26.7
specific spacing and then all their
little tails stick up into the middle so
21:26.7
21:31.9
what you’ve effectively done is no
different than like paint you you’ve
21:31.9
21:37.3
coated the surface with them the kicker
is and this is why this type of filming
21:37.3
21:42.1
amines are different why they work so
effectively for corrosion ambition is
21:42.1
21:47.6
that you filmed them and then because
all their little tails are sticking up
21:47.6
21:52.7
into basically what we would call the
water space right
21:52.7
21:56.1
all those little tails are hydrophobic
we talked about that in the beginning
21:56.1
22:01.7
they don’t like water so you basically
have put down almost like in oily
22:01.7
22:07.4
coating if you will go into your kitchen
oil and water don’t mix right so then
22:07.4
22:12.8
what happens is the water and by virtue
of that anything in the water doesn’t
22:12.8
22:16.0
get to come in contact with the metal
because you’ve just formed this
22:16.0
22:19.4
hydrophobic barrier
on the surface of the metal so if the
22:19.4
22:24.2
water can’t come in contact with the
surface and the ions in solution can’t
22:24.2
22:30.3
come in contact with the metal surface
then we greatly reduce corrosion rate
22:30.3
22:35.6
and potential for deposition does that
make sense I think that makes a lot of
22:35.6
22:41.4
sense I really like the marching analogy
that’s you said there now I’m sure
22:41.4
22:44.3
there’s somebody out there that’s saying
okay well if we’re putting this film on
22:44.3
22:48.9
there is that going to affect the heat
transfer of the system well so yes
22:48.9
22:53.1
actually it is but not in the way you’re
thinking right so people always think
22:53.1
22:57.8
anything on the surface is gonna induce
some sort of insulation and what filming
22:57.8
23:05.3
amines do is this is my way of phrasing
this they foster smooth compact metal
23:05.3
23:11.1
oxide layers so we talked about how they
form films and how that functions and
23:11.1
23:16.1
I’ll answer all come full circle in just
a second I promise but the other thing
23:16.1
23:23.9
that they do is they remove old loose
corrosion debris right so if you imagine
23:23.9
23:29.3
a mountain range right so if you imagine
your pipe looks like the Rockies where I
23:29.3
23:33.5
am right and there’s just all of these
peaks and valleys and some of the
23:33.5
23:40.8
mountains are taller than others and you
have to move heat from the core of the
23:40.8
23:46.9
earth through all of those you get
varying rates of movement right but if I
23:46.9
23:51.8
bring you out into the plains where we
just kind of have smoother what would I
23:51.8
23:56.0
would consider more homogenous rolling
hills we don’t have the same extreme
23:56.0
24:03.2
changes in elevation it’s a lot easier
to move heat from a quarter crust
24:03.2
24:09.5
through those hills right the same thing
holds true to a system that has been
24:09.5
24:14.9
cleaned up and filmed over with filming
a means what filming a means can do and
24:14.9
24:20.6
what we’ve seen them do is go through
and remove old corrosion debris and they
24:20.6
24:25.0
take in a pipe around a two-door
whatever what looks like a Mountain
24:25.0
24:30.7
corrosion wise and they smooth it out
and they turn it into rolling
24:30.7
24:38.5
very okay and so what happens then is
your heat transfer it’s easier to move
24:38.5
24:42.8
through that smooth layers you actually
see improved heat transfer with the
24:42.8
24:48.7
application of filming means there was a
gentleman out of rostock germany at the
24:48.7
24:55.0
university and he looked at what’s the
difference in magnetite layer thickness
24:55.0
24:59.8
if you use a conventional treatment
program like conventional phosphate
24:59.8
25:06.2
program versus an amine program and I
want to say I mean you’d have to you’d
25:06.2
25:09.4
have to read it all of history you know
all of his work to fully understand the
25:09.4
25:14.7
whole spectrum of what he was doing but
average thickness of magnetite layer and
25:14.7
25:21.8
a conventional program was like 15.6
micrometers and the average thickness in
25:21.8
25:28.1
a filmed environment was like five five
point something I remember with them the
25:28.1
25:33.4
point was I apologized but so you’re
reducing magnetite thickness by a third
25:33.4
25:40.2
an Ergo improving heat transfer so does
it have an impact on heat transfer yes
25:40.2
25:46.2
is it in an insulated way like we would
assume within the chemistry’s no and
25:46.2
25:52.6
hopefully my explanation explains why if
not I apologize if I can be sure no I
25:52.6
25:56.4
think you’re doing a great job you have
a gift of analogy and you’ll bring
25:56.4
26:00.3
something that everybody can visualize
into your explanation I think you’re
26:00.3
26:07.3
doing a great job thank you I usually
get visual aids I feel like to be there
26:07.3
26:12.9
you know at the podcast is a horrible
visual platform when I do certain shows
26:12.9
26:17.7
I’ll be writing things down or I even do
things on my whiteboard which nobody can
26:17.7
26:22.5
see but it helps me actually get through
the podcast hopefully the people out
26:22.5
26:26.0
there listening can can not only
understand what you’re saying but also
26:26.0
26:30.9
understand what I’m saying on those
other podcast so you know filming amines
26:30.9
26:36.9
came out originally with boilers and now
we’re hearing them treat pretty much
26:36.9
26:41.7
every system that we come in contact
with so I thought we could explore that
26:41.7
26:45.4
that you know did it start and boilers
and then we learned on boilers and now
26:45.4
26:48.8
we can now we learned that we can treat
other systems what’s going on with that
26:48.8
26:55.1
and what systems is it suitable to be
used in originally when filming means
26:55.1
26:57.6
we’re first used again it was a Hail
Mary
26:57.6
27:02.4
it was either because there was gonna be
some sort of a shutdown and it was for
27:02.4
27:06.6
an unknown period of time and they
basically felt like they had no other
27:06.6
27:12.0
option or it was because something
happened there was some force majeure
27:12.0
27:16.8
type of event there was an earthquake
there was center of something where
27:16.8
27:21.9
basically it was it was kind of their
only option but conventionally a mean
27:21.9
27:28.3
chemistry was steam line chemistry right
it was all about protecting a common
27:28.3
27:34.1
state line and so in high pressure
systems they would basically in these at
27:34.1
27:37.5
these types of events they’d be like
well there’s really no other option
27:37.5
27:42.5
apparently we’re trying this and
instinctively they would try apply to
27:42.5
27:47.2
apply right before a steam line and what
they learned when it went well was that
27:47.2
27:51.5
it worked and it worked like nothing
else did so what does that mean that
27:51.5
27:57.9
means that not only did they decrease
the the iron that was lost during
27:57.9
28:03.7
whatever that timeframe was but it also
meant then when they brought a system
28:03.7
28:09.3
back online that in iron throw did
happen because expansion and contraction
28:09.3
28:15.1
so exists right there still confits is
still involved that the rate of recovery
28:15.1
28:20.0
to what would be considered acceptable
operating conditions whether you’re
28:20.0
28:23.6
looking at that in water quality or
you’re looking at that in Mills per year
28:23.6
28:28.5
pick your favorite marker for success so
the amount of iron that got thrown was
28:28.5
28:33.3
substantially less and so what they
started doing was looking at okay so we
28:33.3
28:37.4
know it works in condensate mines right
it’s it’s a volatile chemistry they can
28:37.4
28:41.2
go into solution they can go up into the
steam they can transfer through what
28:41.2
28:46.1
they started seeing was in systems with
decent rates of return at this point
28:46.1
28:49.3
specifically high pressure high
temperature systems they would start
28:49.3
28:54.7
seeing it come back around in the
condensate return and then systems from
28:54.7
28:58.4
the point of car
they return up to a boiler and then in a
28:58.4
29:03.0
boiler and then back out the line they
were noticing the same the same type of
29:03.0
29:06.8
phenomenon through an entire system and
and they really just escaped okay it’s
29:06.8
29:11.8
an all volatile type treatment so then
the question became how can we make it
29:11.8
29:16.3
easier to apply this instead of going
into a steam header or something like
29:16.3
29:20.8
that like we would conventionally do
with a mean type chemistry and honestly
29:20.8
29:25.7
some places still do even with what I
would consider modern filming technology
29:25.7
29:30.6
products is there an easier way to do it
is there a way that’s more economical to
29:30.6
29:33.5
do it I mean if there’s a better way to
build a widget can we figure out a
29:33.5
29:37.8
better way to build a widget type of
advancements right and what they learned
29:37.8
29:44.6
was okay if we apply it in these other
areas one it’s easier in two we get the
29:44.6
29:48.8
same type of functioning in the boiler
right we get the same type of cleaning
29:48.8
29:54.9
and filming and protection as we do in a
steam line we see the same type of thing
29:54.9
29:59.3
then occur in a da we see the same type
of phenomenon in a condensate return
29:59.3
30:04.8
tank and it makeup taken in all of the
different locations and on all of these
30:04.8
30:10.4
different metallurgies so I think then
the question you know for the guys that
30:10.4
30:14.8
were out there being innovative and
trying to sell business was okay well if
30:14.8
30:19.6
it works here in relatively mixed in
metallurgy situations why would it not
30:19.6
30:23.4
work somewhere else you know we talked
so much about magnetite we talked so
30:23.4
30:28.6
much about mild steel but the reality of
the situation is we see this type of
30:28.6
30:33.2
filming phenomenon with all different
types of metals we see it on copper we
30:33.2
30:38.1
see it on aluminum you know we see it in
all of the different areas so why would
30:38.1
30:44.5
it not function in those areas and so I
think people got innovative and we’re
30:44.5
30:49.7
willing to try for lack of a better
phrase we’re willing to to give it a go
30:49.7
30:55.2
and what we found is we can do the same
thing in cooling towers with building
30:55.2
30:59.5
means we can do the same thing in closed
loops with filming it means the filmers
30:59.5
31:06.0
don’t they don’t really care I say that
the Cavalera manner they really don’t
31:06.0
31:10.7
coppers copper
I’m just gonna film it what we have seen
31:10.7
31:15.4
as far as putting filming the means in
different types of systems is that
31:15.4
31:22.5
cocktails are developed for specific
types of systems so for example if you
31:22.5
31:27.6
have a closed loop system that’s
primarily aluminum aluminum likes the
31:27.6
31:35.5
lower pH right it just does and so in
that cocktail is there really a need for
31:35.5
31:40.6
like an alkalizing to me something to
drive the pH up and the easy answer is
31:40.6
31:45.7
well no probably not in reality maybe
quite the contrary is that maybe a more
31:45.7
31:50.9
suitable cocktail for on Lumina based
systems is something that’s got the
31:50.9
31:54.1
filming amines in there but it’s
alkalizing the mean-free in a cooling
31:54.1
31:58.1
tower is there ever a reason to put
alkalizing means in there you know
31:58.1
32:02.9
probably not in fact we actually
actively work to change the pH or bring
32:02.9
32:07.2
it down a little bit yes so why would we
put them in there so I think the
32:07.2
32:12.3
development has come for four different
cocktails if you will or different
32:12.3
32:16.0
chemistry’s different formulations for
different types of systems it was based
32:16.0
32:24.2
on the needs of that type of system I
say that but honestly from a filming
32:24.2
32:28.5
amine perspective if you took a boiler
product and you put it in a cooling
32:28.5
32:32.8
tower while I don’t know that it would
necessarily be the best suited and one
32:32.8
32:36.6
could argue that there’s actually
materials in that boiler product that
32:36.6
32:40.2
would not be in the best interest of the
cooling tower that filmers would still
32:40.2
32:43.6
perform the same it might cause you
other issues but the filmers would still
32:43.6
32:47.8
go in and film does that make sense it
makes perfect sense and I know for a
32:47.8
32:51.9
fact that there are people out there
that have that very question hey I’m
32:51.9
32:56.8
using product X in my boiler so I
already have that in stock well I don’t
32:56.8
33:01.5
I just put that in my cooling tower
because I already own it and they say
33:01.5
33:04.6
that filming amines are good for cooling
towers so I think that was a great
33:04.6
33:09.1
explanation yeah I would talk to your
vendor if your vendor to answer those
33:09.1
33:12.7
questions for you then then either you
need to do more digging or your vendor
33:12.7
33:16.0
needs to do more digging it’s new
technology to the United States or it’s
33:16.0
33:21.3
relatively new right it’s not new but in
the US this phenomenon is new with
33:21.3
33:25.5
industry and so everybody’s still
learning everybody’s still working
33:25.5
33:27.8
through things it’s a fair question to
ask
33:27.8
33:32.3
talk to your vendor fair enough now you
mentioned this is newer here in the
33:32.3
33:37.1
states but I know in Europe they’ve been
using it longer can you speak a little
33:37.1
33:43.2
bit about that sure it’s really all over
Russia actually the reality of the
33:43.2
33:50.2
situation is they just were willing to
look at the technology in developing the
33:50.2
33:54.9
technology before we were the way I like
to think about it is they were
33:54.9
33:59.8
two-degree willing to be the canary but
I think actually a lot of that has to do
33:59.8
34:03.6
with the fact that the direction that
the market was driven over there they
34:03.6
34:07.9
have different regulatory rules on what
they are and are not allowed to use over
34:07.9
34:13.0
there and they’ve always been within
reason just a little bit more strict
34:13.0
34:17.2
than we have been in the United States
and so I think that part of the
34:17.2
34:22.0
innovation and the development of these
types of things came out of necessity
34:22.0
34:28.2
and they had to find alternative options
so honestly I think that if your goal is
34:28.2
34:34.7
education either Logan or Xavier they
both live over there they have lots of
34:34.7
34:38.5
experience over there and they could
probably explain more of how the market
34:38.5
34:44.6
was driven overseas what I do know about
what has occurred in the United States
34:44.6
34:51.8
is basically as a company our owner was
a water treaty right it’s just what he
34:51.8
34:58.4
did he was a wanna treat her before he
owned wst and so I think to a degree he
34:58.4
35:02.8
was kind of fascinated with that the
technology was presented to him he
35:02.8
35:08.2
remembered he had those knee-jerk
reactions from the original OTA you know
35:08.2
35:14.5
brick technology and so then you know by
him changing his career path starting
35:14.5
35:19.7
wst and coming contact and being more of
a vendor he was this technology was
35:19.7
35:24.8
brought before him and honestly I think
it was just interesting to it and so he
35:24.8
35:29.0
said okay well we already have these
relationships in place you know how
35:29.0
35:33.3
could we bring this to the US and he
went out on the limb and
35:33.3
35:38.0
he brought a few of us onto this team
and he just kind of allowed us to do it
35:38.0
35:44.2
he’d have a mark our only job was to
solve problems and if we could do it
35:44.2
35:49.2
using filming technology then we were
allowed to do it that way and so that’s
35:49.2
35:55.9
kind of how wst really got brought into
the product line it actually we had it
35:55.9
36:01.9
available to us a couple of years before
my team actually was really started
36:01.9
36:06.7
working on it because that we needed we
needed the support team and staff to be
36:06.7
36:11.0
able to to go out and try and be
successful with it so that’s kind of how
36:11.0
36:18.1
we got a hold of it if you will was
working with team overseas but the in
36:18.1
36:22.6
the u.s. it’s they’ve actually there are
groups that have been looking at it for
36:22.6
36:29.2
longer the kicker is it’s all privately
owned so it’s it’s either Department of
36:29.2
36:35.6
Energy or every it’s been working with
the technology for gosh upwards of a
36:35.6
36:41.6
decade now and so the information exists
in the United States the research has
36:41.6
36:46.1
been done in the United States it’s just
not necessarily made public yet and
36:46.1
36:52.9
where teams like ours or some of the
other us-based vendors that have started
36:52.9
36:57.7
trying to you know figure out
formulations or come forward with the
36:57.7
37:01.9
technology it’s been a little bit
delayed but I think it’s coming down the
37:01.9
37:06.8
pike more than people realize I think
that there’s been so much success I mean
37:06.8
37:09.9
there’s been headaches and figuring out
you know stumbling blocks along the way
37:09.9
37:14.3
but ultimately there’s been so much
success not just overseas but also here
37:14.3
37:17.4
in the United States now that that
people have realized that it’s really
37:17.4
37:24.1
becoming much more of a go-to chemistry
than a one-off you know nothing else is
37:24.1
37:28.0
working so why not chemistry yeah I
think that makes perfect sense you know
37:28.0
37:31.8
and if you look at it the states are
just slow to respond I mean look at
37:31.8
37:35.5
Legionella look at water conservation
you know all that stuff we’re normally
37:35.5
37:40.7
taking the lead from some other nation
and then we’re applying that here so why
37:40.7
37:45.4
should it means be any different I think
that’s totally realistic I think that
37:45.4
37:49.2
you know my
triolic side says we should be allowed
37:49.2
37:53.8
to functionally make choices and move
forward and make decisions for ourselves
37:53.8
37:58.1
but at the same time sometimes that
slows us up a little bit sometimes I
37:58.1
38:03.0
think we hold ourselves back so the last
thing I think about filming means in
38:03.0
38:08.4
general is that if you’re interested in
them if you want to learn to use them or
38:08.4
38:12.5
honestly if you’re if you’re a
professional in the AWT or water
38:12.5
38:18.9
treatment industry filming technology we
can’t say anymore it’s coming the
38:18.9
38:23.9
reality of the situation is it’s here
and so the best thing you can do for
38:23.9
38:29.7
yourself beyond obviously listen to the
podcasts beyond go to technology
38:29.7
38:33.4
conferences and and try and learn as
much as possible from the professionals
38:33.4
38:41.2
that are there is read there’s so much
information that is published on use and
38:41.2
38:44.3
application and how do they work and why
do they work
38:44.3
38:50.0
ie PWS has whole technical guidance
documents out there I mean it is it is
38:50.0
38:54.6
an international collaboration for
application of these types of
38:54.6
39:01.3
technologies and so if I could encourage
you to do anything it would be read
39:01.3
39:06.8
educate yourself some of the reading is
not is you know titillating as others
39:06.8
39:10.4
however you will learn something from
all of it it will enable you to speak a
39:10.4
39:15.0
language that you need to be able to
speak to be competitive and successful
39:15.0
39:20.5
so read educate yourself that is
outstanding advice you’re never going to
39:20.5
39:26.8
go wrong by having more knowledge about
a particular topic so merridy there is
39:26.8
39:32.4
so much more that we need to cover thank
you so much for coming on I don’t want
39:32.4
39:36.3
to take all of your time today so I’m
going to ask if you’ll come back next
39:36.3
39:42.4
week and we can talk about the specifics
of each system that we as water treaters
39:42.4
39:46.3
would run into sure
well Scaling UP! nations stay tuned
39:46.3
39:50.5
because next week we’re going to talk
about the systems that you are treating
39:50.5
39:54.4
and maybe filming amines are an
additional way or maybe
39:54.4
39:59.4
even a better way maybe they solve a
problem that you can’t seem to solve
39:59.4
40:08.2
right now so tune in next week and we’ll
start talking about the specific systems