Scaling UP! H2O

93 Transcript

The following transcript is provided by YouTube. Mistakes are present. To hear the podcast episode, click HERE.

0:08.1

0:12.4

welcome to Scaling UP! the podcast where
we’re Scaling UP! on knowledge so we

0:12.4

0:16.4

don’t Scaling UP! our systems
hi everybody Trace Blackmore here your

0:16.4

0:24.3

host for scaling up h2o folks I am so
excited about today’s show we have so

0:24.3

0:30.1

much information packed into today’s
show that we’re probably not going to be

0:30.1

0:35.9

able to do it all in one show I am
speaking with one of the people that I

0:35.9

0:42.1

consider my mentors and you met him in
industrial Water Week a few months ago

0:42.1

0:47.9

his name is Jay Farmerie CWT and I’m
going to tell you a little bit about the

0:47.9

0:57.0

story of how Jay and I got that mentor
mentee relationship I went to the AWT

0:57.0

1:03.7

technical training seminar and I want to
say it was middle 90s and it was the

1:03.7

1:10.7

first AWT event that I had ever attended
and I gotta tell you I was nervous I

1:10.7

1:16.0

didn’t know anybody and talk about
drinking from a firehose

1:16.0

1:21.8

I think we have a kinder gentler
technical training today it’s still a

1:21.8

1:26.5

lot of information and folks it’s still
drinking from a firehose but back then

1:26.5

1:32.5

there was just so much stuff and I want
to say that the people that were

1:32.5

1:36.8

presenting were a lot more intense back
then so again I think we have a kind ler

1:36.8

1:42.3

a gentler training now but the training
methane was also amazing and I remember

1:42.3

1:48.2

I listened to so many awesome speakers
get up there and teach me about water

1:48.2

1:52.7

treatment and I was thinking wow I
really can’t wait to go home and put

1:52.7

1:57.3

some of this stuff into practice and I
did some of the same note taking

1:57.3

2:02.0

techniques that I’ve shared with you on
this show with the present technical

2:02.0

2:07.4

training I did that back then so I am
telling you that stuff like that works

2:07.4

2:11.0

I’m not going to get too much into that
today because we’ve talked about that on

2:11.0

2:16.4

earlier shows but something I also
talked about on earlier shows is find

2:16.4

2:21.0

people out there in the water treatment
community that can be immense

2:21.0

2:26.9

or to you that can help guide you
through the trail of becoming a really

2:26.9

2:32.7

good professional water treater and then
use their knowledge use their mistakes

2:32.7

2:38.3

use their triumphs to help you become
that water treat or that you want to be

2:38.3

2:46.7

so I remember I had asked a question and
one of the attendees answered it in such

2:46.7

2:52.1

a way that didn’t make me feel so smart
right then I should have had every

2:52.1

2:57.7

inclination to just shut down and and
not advance myself in approaching

2:57.7

3:01.7

somebody for as a mentor now this was
not Jay that did this this was somebody

3:01.7

3:06.8

else and he’s no longer one of the
trainers but he did a great job he just

3:06.8

3:12.9

didn’t think that I had a very smart
question with that I decided with all of

3:12.9

3:18.0

that self-doubt because of what that
speaker said to me I was still going to

3:18.0

3:23.7

introduce myself to the speakers so they
at least knew who tres Blackmore was and

3:23.7

3:29.8

I remember I sat down I made it a point
to sit down next to Jay farmer II and

3:29.8

3:35.1

then Bruce Catterick sat right on the
other side of me folks that was one of

3:35.1

3:40.3

the most intimidating lunches I have
ever had I regard both of those

3:40.3

3:46.3

individuals as water treatment Jedi and
they were asking me questions they were

3:46.3

3:49.6

asking the table questions they did a
really good job of keeping dialogue

3:49.6

3:56.0

going during lunch and I remember
thinking I need to get to know these two

3:56.0

4:01.0

individuals and I went to the training
the following year and I think that’s so

4:01.0

4:06.2

key when you’re going to any training
seminar like the AWT technical training

4:06.2

4:10.7

you have to make sure that you’re not
going in with a mindset that I’m going

4:10.7

4:15.7

once and I’m gonna know everything from
going once folks it is that drinking

4:15.7

4:21.7

from a firehose scenario and if you can
just get a little bit out of that fire

4:21.7

4:27.4

hose to fill your cup and the cup is
what you don’t know I don’t know

4:27.4

4:32.5

something I’m going to try to figure out
the things that I don’t know and I’m

4:32.5

4:36.3

going to start filling my cup up
with that that’s why you go multiple

4:36.3

4:43.0

times so I went the next year and I made
it a point to approach J farmer E and

4:43.0

4:48.2

complement him that I really thought he
was the water treater that I wanted to

4:48.2

4:55.2

become and I asked him if he would be a
mentor and he had no reason to say yes

4:55.2

5:02.3

but he did say yes and that’s been for
just about 20 years if not 20 years and

5:02.3

5:08.7

J has just been phenomenal I also asked
that question to Bruce Catterick and and

5:08.7

5:15.2

he’s been great too and folks I tell you
it’s so much easier to become better at

5:15.2

5:21.7

this job when you’re not doing it alone
so whether you’re reaching out to one of

5:21.7

5:27.0

your co-workers or maybe your boss or
somebody you met at a training seminar

5:27.0

5:32.5

it is so much easier to become a better
water treater when you have people

5:32.5

5:38.3

helping you out and Jay has done exactly
that for the amount of time that I have

5:38.3

5:44.7

known him he has just been a window of
knowledge he never holds anything back

5:44.7

5:50.6

and if I ask a question I normally get
more information back than I really want

5:50.6

5:53.8

but I learned through the process I
don’t know if you’ve ever asked Jay

5:53.8

5:57.9

farmer your question but you are not
going to get an answer back you’re gonna

5:57.9

6:04.2

get about 20 questions back and because
of those 20 questions you’re able to

6:04.2

6:08.8

learn through the process and the thing
that he does and I’m gonna have to ask

6:08.8

6:13.2

him if he knows he does this or not but
he now positions me that I don’t ever

6:13.2

6:17.8

have to ask him that question again I
ask him a new question because he taught

6:17.8

6:23.0

me how to think through the issue that I
was having in a way that I could think

6:23.0

6:28.1

through it the next time that that issue
came up so I am going to ask Jay about

6:28.1

6:37.1

that question and so many more because
my guest today is a Jay farmer II CWT I

6:37.1

6:41.2

know you’re going to enjoy this
interview so please welcome Jay farmer

6:41.2

6:47.9

II CWT my lab partner today is Jay
farmer EJ thank you so much for

6:47.9

6:51.9

on Scaling UP! I know we’ve tried doing
this once before we had some technical

6:51.9

6:57.7

issues but you and I said hey we’re here
in sunny San Diego together at the AWT

6:57.7

7:03.0

technical training so why not just get
together and do this interview so thank

7:03.0

7:06.9

you for being here thank you for the
training that you do for AWT we’re gonna

7:06.9

7:11.2

talk about that a little bit and thank
you for talking to the Scaling UP! nation

7:11.2

7:17.6

welcome Jay thank you trace I first want
to say I really appreciate you and your

7:17.6

7:22.0

podcasts and you’re doing a really great
job well Jay I talked a lot about

7:22.0

7:27.8

mentors on the show and you and I have
known each other is it coming on 20

7:27.8

7:33.1

years it has to be and I remember that
the first time I believe I ever laid

7:33.1

7:38.4

eyes on you I didn’t know who Jay farmer
he was I listened to you at an AWT

7:38.4

7:43.8

technical training seminar and I said
that is a smart dude that guy knows

7:43.8

7:49.3

water treatment and I want to know at
least a small fraction of what he knows

7:49.3

7:55.2

I need to connect myself with that guide
I made it a point that I ate lunch next

7:55.2

7:59.6

to you and I was too scared the first
time I met you to ask if you would

7:59.6

8:05.0

mentor me but the next time I saw you I
asked you those exact words and you so

8:05.0

8:09.2

graciously said absolutely I will do
that and Jay you’ve been a tremendous

8:09.2

8:15.0

mentor and it’s because of people like
yourself pouring into me that I’m able

8:15.0

8:20.8

to do this show so I appreciate you
thanking me but this is a result of me

8:20.8

8:24.7

doing exactly what I tell other people
on the scale in our nation to do that it

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8:29.4

takes a village to build any water
treater and I want to thank you for

8:29.4

8:34.0

being my mentor well we always want to
get back to this industry and basically

8:34.0

8:39.6

it’s it’s what you learn and what you
want to give back and being a smart dude

8:39.6

8:43.6

as Colin says sometimes we have to make
it up that’s right he does that with a

8:43.6

8:47.0

with a British accent so he sounds even
smarter when he does that Kyle was

8:47.0

8:49.7

supposed to come on the show he keeps
blowing me off so eventually I think

8:49.7

8:53.0

I’ll get calling it that definitely get
calling me we live in the same state but

8:53.0

8:55.3

we never see each other that happens a
lot

8:55.3

8:59.8

Fred pot off used to be on a board of
directors at one time and

8:59.8

9:03.0

he always said the only time we have
received which one another and we’re

9:03.0

9:08.3

both in Pittsburgh is when we come out
of out of Pittsburgh gotcha John’s a

9:08.3

9:13.0

breed is the same way so I guess that’s
just how it works we’re all so busy

9:13.0

9:18.0

doing our jobs we have to take time out
of doing our jobs to come to places like

9:18.0

9:23.2

AWT venues and that’s why you and I are
able to talk like we are today well Jay

9:23.2

9:28.3

I have known you for years again I
consider you my mentor you’ve helped me

9:28.3

9:31.1

so much but I know there’s some people
out there in the Scaling UP! nation that

9:31.1

9:35.7

might not have met Jay farmer yet so do
you mind telling them a little bit about

9:35.7

9:42.2

yourself fine trace basically executive
consultant for Cyrus rice water

9:42.2

9:47.0

consultants and I’m also the technical
director and vice president of

9:47.0

9:52.7

operations for GLA water consultants GLA
water consultants is another water

9:52.7

9:54.4

treatment company just like everybody
else

9:54.4

10:01.9

and Cyrus rice is just strictly a
consulting firm we provide consulting to

10:01.9

10:07.8

the end users and to other AWT members
and quite a few things across the nation

10:07.8

10:12.7

across the world I’ve been to a lot of
different places and do a lot of

10:12.7

10:17.8

different things in refineries steel
mills you name it

10:17.8

10:24.1

I’ve seen just about seeing a lot yeah
you have a very impressive resume nation

10:24.1

10:27.3

I’m sure you know this I’m sure I’ve
said it on the phone before but when I

10:27.3

10:31.2

don’t know the answer Jay is one of the
people that I call and Jay you have a

10:31.2

10:33.6

knack that you never give a direct
answer

10:33.6

10:38.9

you asked 40 more questions on top of my
one question and I tell you by you doing

10:38.9

10:43.0

that I start thinking about things in a
different way and more often than not I

10:43.0

10:47.3

come up with my own answer do you do
that on purpose well the biggest thing

10:47.3

10:52.7

part of it yes because you have to find
out more about a system as I was telling

10:52.7

10:56.6

somebody downstairs you can have two
buildings sitting right next to one

10:56.6

11:00.4

another they may have the same water
going in but they have different pieces

11:00.4

11:04.8

of equipment and if you really look at
the different pieces of equipment even

11:04.8

11:11.0

though they may both may be condensers
or cooling towers or boilers or whatever

11:11.0

11:14.8

they are they’re probably
a little bit different and they have

11:14.8

11:19.9

different dynamics so by knowing all the
dynamics then you make the right choice

11:19.9

11:23.6

and then metallurgy also becomes
something portable where you’re laying

11:23.6

11:28.2

down a bunch of words that we’re getting
ready to unpack later in the show one

11:28.2

11:34.8

thing I want to start with is how did
you get in to water treatment well it’s

11:34.8

11:40.9

been a long time ago in college I
basically decided I needed to do some

11:40.9

11:45.7

type of internship and that’s before
colleges really did a lot of internships

11:45.7

11:53.7

but I my mentor in college was my P chem
professor hade like you to do an

11:53.7

11:58.7

internship how about going to work for
Bethlehem Steel and it’s bedlam that’s

11:58.7

12:01.5

the way they say it in Bethlehem
Pennsylvania

12:01.5

12:08.6

so now Bethlehem bedlam there you go now
you know so basically I start working in

12:08.6

12:14.7

Bethlehem Steel’s or peplums steels
waste water working on some projects for

12:14.7

12:22.3

that for them under the guidance of my
my mentor and professor at school so

12:22.3

12:29.0

didn’t realize that that was going to be
my life’s calling so then I left school

12:29.0

12:34.5

and and I started to work at US Steel
and I worked with clarin Works clarin

12:34.5

12:39.8

Works is a big chemical plant most
people think of as just a coke works but

12:39.8

12:44.0

they were taking all the off gasses from
the coke and making into kenton

12:44.0

12:48.3

different chemicals and they had
multiple different areas and I worked in

12:48.3

12:54.5

the labs and we would go out and doing
shift work at different sites across the

12:54.5

12:59.9

claritin coke works now J I’m betting a
lot of people in the nation don’t know

12:59.9

13:04.5

what coke is now to me coke is Dixie
champagne I’m from Atlanta Georgia but

13:04.5

13:08.0

that’s not what we’re talking about what
exactly is coke coke is used to make

13:08.0

13:12.8

steel and it’s one of the things used in
the first part of the process so they

13:12.8

13:17.5

have to take coal and they have to bake
it at a very high temperatures and the

13:17.5

13:23.2

coal would give off off gases and
provide different chemistry’s but we

13:23.2

13:27.0

would go you know I might be in the
hydrogen sulfide lab

13:27.0

13:32.9

or the the water lab or the coke oven
gas lab so we would go into different

13:32.9

13:36.9

labs and during shift work you’d do
different tests at the different labs

13:36.9

13:42.5

but my favorite was the water lab felt
like I was really doing something and

13:42.5

13:46.9

they had quench water and they had other
waters so we would go out and test water

13:46.9

13:52.2

by the caf coke oven batteries and hey
the one thing you do when you walk by a

13:52.2

14:00.2

common battery if it’s closed it’s an
oven so it’s freezing outside your back

14:00.2

14:05.7

is cold and if you’re facing the coop
call oven that coke oven battery the

14:05.7

14:10.6

front of you is hot very hot so you got
1,200 degrees on one side and negative

14:10.6

14:17.9

zero negative 15 on the up you got it so
I worked for US Steel for about a year

14:17.9

14:24.3

and I couldn’t handle the layoffs and
then some of the some of the Union

14:24.3

14:31.7

mentality as a young professional we
would do work in a lab I’d get my work

14:31.7

14:37.4

done in two three hours
and basically they I would go into my

14:37.4

14:41.2

boss and say I want more work I’m
getting my work done in from two hours

14:41.2

14:46.9

to three hours any other guys say no we
don’t do it that way and I can’t I can’t

14:46.9

14:52.5

handle that I mean I like to be busy
a little constantly busy so I left

14:52.5

14:58.1

claritin works US Steel and I said I did
really didn’t like the layoffs so let

14:58.1

15:04.7

the layoffs as a new person in the Union
mentality you get a lot of layoffs so I

15:04.7

15:10.4

aim to start working for combustion
engineering making foundry chemicals and

15:10.4

15:15.9

I spent about a year you’re doing
foundry chemicals learning about founder

15:15.9

15:21.9

chemicals for alcohol residents phenolic
resins things like that so it was

15:21.9

15:27.1

manufacturing those kind of resins and I
said this is not where I want to be so I

15:27.1

15:31.5

end up going to work for Calgon and I
think everybody knows cowbugs one of the

15:31.5

15:36.6

original six pack and I was hired as an
in research and development now you know

15:36.6

15:40.1

my dad whoever started out with Calgon
yes did you know my dad no

15:40.1

15:46.4

I don’t okay basically I started Calgon
and basically I had various choices

15:46.4

15:49.9

which way to go you know on research
development you’re doing different

15:49.9

15:54.5

things and there’s a new person in
Calgon how you do what they told you to

15:54.5

16:00.2

do and at Calvin we would always have
three organizations and research and

16:00.2

16:04.4

development its reorganization
reorganization and you would move from

16:04.4

16:08.8

one lab and do one one chore and then
you move into somebody else’s group and

16:08.8

16:13.4

do another chore so it was a lot of
different things we would go and see a

16:13.4

16:16.2

lot of different people isn’t Aliyah do
a lot of different things you got to

16:16.2

16:21.0

remember Calgon at the time not only had
the water Freeman business it also had

16:21.0

16:25.3

the commodity business which it was
selling at the time and the activated

16:25.3

16:30.4

carbon business so you moved from side
to side and all over the place so you

16:30.4

16:35.1

get to do a little bit of everything and
learn a lot about varying products I

16:35.1

16:42.4

spent 10 years with Calvin and I really
wanted to be out in the field I was

16:42.4

16:46.6

doing some tech service work working
with the technical engineers in the

16:46.6

16:52.2

various facilities never had been in the
field so then I went and started on my

16:52.2

16:56.7

MBA they pulled me okay will pay for
your education go out and get an MBA so

16:56.7

17:03.5

I got an MBA in my worked so where my
goal was was to move further into the

17:03.5

17:07.9

water treatment market that all happened
to be my cousin also works worked for

17:07.9

17:13.6

Calvin at the time so I couldn’t
constantly move that way so I ended up

17:13.6

17:17.9

switching the activated carbon for a
while was that because of nepotism they

17:17.9

17:23.6

were worried about they had a nepotism
conflict where if you got if I could

17:23.6

17:29.9

possibly report to him which would never
have happened I don’t think because he

17:29.9

17:34.6

was in a total he was in a different
area so I moved activated carbon for a

17:34.6

17:40.3

couple years and but I was all research
and development so then when I finally

17:40.3

17:43.7

finished up my MBA and one of the stake
out Ron and moved the way I wanted to do

17:43.7

17:48.7

no no you’re into important you have
patents hold it guys what’s going on

17:48.7

17:54.0

here you tell me one thing and you go to
another and then I that’s why I decided

17:54.0

18:00.4

cow button so I started to work with a
small Association of group of guys they

18:00.4

18:06.6

had a small manufacturing plant in
Youngstown Ohio and basically I became

18:06.6

18:11.8

their technical director and blender
making sure their blends were properly

18:11.8

18:16.4

made we readjusting their formulations
and Warren going out and provide tech

18:16.4

18:22.0

service to them on the field with water
treatment so I spent about five years

18:22.0

18:25.7

with them doing water treatment one of
the people that I know very well was

18:25.7

18:30.9

Chuck Cameron so he was one he was one
of the partners I also was a partner of

18:30.9

18:37.8

that plant so I became basically
technical director knowledgeable

18:37.8

18:42.7

information and I got to meet people
like Jim heimer

18:42.7

18:48.9

and some of his some of the people that
his other partner but I got to meet

18:48.9

18:53.0

those kind of people I met other people
I met the guys from crown engineering

18:53.0

19:00.6

Jim James McDonald and other people that
are in our industry James McDonald

19:00.6

19:05.2

friend of show one of our bar biggest
fans and supporters so it was a it was

19:05.2

19:09.8

very interesting I got to meet those
people we were already coming I had

19:09.8

19:16.4

already been to IWC where most of the
most of us went at those times and I

19:16.4

19:21.5

started coming doing work with I a
double ut etc and you know I was a

19:21.5

19:25.2

technical trekker I was going out and
solving the technical issues which I

19:25.2

19:29.7

really love to do solving solving the
technical issues of different water

19:29.7

19:33.5

treatment facilities and being at
different plants and seeing different

19:33.5

19:39.1

things and Calvin I would go to big
plants aren’t going and Exxon and in

19:39.1

19:45.7

other places wherever we had work so
that was how I got ideas for different

19:45.7

19:50.2

products or different items and things
like that I mean that’s how how you

19:50.2

19:55.6

develop them so that’s what I really
love to do I mean the tech service the

19:55.6

19:59.9

consulting the helping the engineering
things like that well when you have five

19:59.9

20:05.1

partners you all sometimes don’t want to
go in the same direction right how do

20:05.1

20:10.2

you deal with that
that’s was very difficult and that’s why

20:10.2

20:16.3

I decided in 92 to leave and start my
own business and at that time I started

20:16.3

20:20.5

GLA water consultants now you gotta
remember I never sold a thing in my life

20:20.5

20:25.1

you were a technical guy I was a
technical guy I was total research and

20:25.1

20:31.1

developments total solving of problems
but I didn’t know what I owe to of how

20:31.1

20:36.4

to squat and sell cold call or anything
else so I started a business from

20:36.4

20:39.5

nothing
and that walked out just went out

20:39.5

20:45.8

started a business from nothing with no
help no anything no extra accounts not

20:45.8

20:51.2

knowing how to go in to accounts and
sell myself just go in and expound

20:51.2

20:56.8

technical on knowledge and what do you
do as we all say we got gave it away a

20:56.8

21:01.5

lot of free consulting sure and I’m
assuming that you still had the

21:01.5

21:06.8

requirement to take care of your family
live indoors and eat food so you had to

21:06.8

21:09.4

figure something out pretty quick very
quickly

21:09.4

21:14.7

I was also my kids were also playing ice
hockey so and I couldn’t take that away

21:14.7

21:20.8

from them at the time I was also
refereeing ice hockey games so my

21:20.8

21:26.8

secondary job became refereeing ice
hockey at night and being up to one two

21:26.8

21:30.5

o’clock even doin adult games till one
or two o’clock in the morning and then

21:30.5

21:34.7

getting up at five o’clock and doing
everything else so it went with allowed

21:34.7

21:41.0

a lot of sleep and without a lot of
different things so somewhere about six

21:41.0

21:45.2

months in and I was doing a lot of
different things and I was growing it

21:45.2

21:51.7

was starting to grow the business
through technical sales and a friend of

21:51.7

21:56.0

mine asked me he knew me a Calvin he
says hey would you have some time for

21:56.0

22:01.4

consulting and I said sure you know hey
I’m looking to make money any which way

22:01.4

22:07.0

I can so he brought me into Cyrus rice
so he ended up leaving Cyrus rice and I

22:07.0

22:13.7

am the purchasing Cyrus rice so GLA
water consultants that is the water

22:13.7

22:19.0

treatment company where you’re doing the
regular water treatment that us AWT

22:19.0

22:22.2

members would
is that a correct that’s that’s the

22:22.2

22:26.7

correct statement we sell chemicals we
sell technical knowledge we sell just

22:26.7

22:31.2

about everything so now take us over on
the cyrus right side what exactly do you

22:31.2

22:36.2

do over there that’s strictly providing
consulting services brain power what’s

22:36.2

22:40.5

in my head and what I see and what’s
wrong and what’s right I’m also doing

22:40.5

22:46.9

expert witness work I go into plants and
maybe I’ll write a specification for

22:46.9

22:50.8

them a water-treatment specification a
steel mills right a water treatment

22:50.8

22:55.8

specification so the companies can all
bid it and we try to put them on an

22:55.8

23:00.6

apples-to-apples basis when I do
specification writing I write

23:00.6

23:06.1

performance based specifications I don’t
tell them some consultants to tell you

23:06.1

23:09.8

what chemistry to use I won’t do that
there’s a lot of chemistry’s a lot of

23:09.8

23:13.6

ways to skin the cat I want
performance-based specifications so when

23:13.6

23:17.4

I did steel mill I said my corrosion
rates and this part of the plan is gonna

23:17.4

23:21.4

be this my corrosion rates and this is
gonna be this filing factors are here da

23:21.4

23:25.9

da da etc and make it all based on
performance in the big companies come

23:25.9

23:34.5

treat now Co GE or bets at the time
would come in and all bid it and they if

23:34.5

23:40.3

you really noticed it when when I write
bid specs how I do it is I write two

23:40.3

23:45.5

specs make sure the client understands
what the specs mean and so we have an

23:45.5

23:51.3

interview of the different potential
vendors so now they all submit their

23:51.3

23:56.2

bids well no matter what you put in the
specs and you tell them to do give you

23:56.2

24:00.9

all this kind of information the specs
can be all over the place you know one

24:00.9

24:06.2

guy bids one point to the other one bids
one point for it he had one bids one so

24:06.2

24:10.8

you know you’d say oh go with the one no
no you got to normalize them because

24:10.8

24:15.6

they cheat a little bit so what do you
mean by that they cheat they may not use

24:15.6

24:19.5

the right product dosages they say okay
maybe here I can get away with this so

24:19.5

24:24.7

they mate they move the numbers one may
be only using you you can give them all

24:24.7

24:30.6

the same water usage but they move them
up and down so you ask them specific

24:30.6

24:35.6

questions so now you normalize
you figure out okay how do I make this

24:35.6

24:39.5

apples to apples and oranges to oranges
now is that something you will do with

24:39.5

24:43.3

the client you write this back and then
you help them evaluate the people that

24:43.3

24:47.4

reply to it right you do this whole
thing this is a whole process it’s not

24:47.4

24:51.4

an easy thing to do
I mean basically so now you have you

24:51.4

24:55.1

have an Excel spreadsheet then I have
all sorts of questions I look at their

24:55.1

24:59.1

bid and say okay here’s some problems so
now we’re gonna we’re gonna bring each

24:59.1

25:02.8

one of them in and we’re gonna have an
interview first off I send them a bunch

25:02.8

25:08.7

of written questions to say okay here’s
what I see in your bid tell me explain

25:08.7

25:13.8

to me that started out it up and it
could be maybe on the products or using

25:13.8

25:18.7

like you know how much night try one
mate as I said because I don’t tell them

25:18.7

25:23.2

how much night let’s say the closed loop
one may use 800 ppm a night ride the

25:23.2

25:28.2

other ones using a thousand the other
ones using 1200 okay so you want to

25:28.2

25:32.3

normalize them what else is in your
product why are you using only 800 why

25:32.3

25:36.3

are you using 1200 why use and a
thousand so you’re trying to make them

25:36.3

25:43.2

all equal and you will see that your
numbers now become almost lay on top of

25:43.2

25:47.3

one another when you put everything on
an apples to apples and oranges to

25:47.3

25:51.9

oranges basis it’s just like when you’re
bringing to me when you’re bringing a

25:51.9

25:55.7

new water treat or in a bring in a new
company and to work with you it’s a

25:55.7

25:59.5

partnership it’s just like hiring a new
employee so you’ll have an interview

25:59.5

26:04.6

another interview of these people you
say okay who your technical people who’s

26:04.6

26:07.7

going how often are we gonna see this
technical person how often are we gonna

26:07.7

26:12.3

see I mean cuz like in a steel mill they
will be there three to four days a week

26:12.3

26:17.0

they may be there five days a week but
somebody technically is going to be

26:17.0

26:22.1

there almost every single day so these
million dollar jobs somebody’s there all

26:22.1

26:26.8

the time you’re there spending time in a
wastewater plant they might be spending

26:26.8

26:34.1

something at the casting the rolling
mill etc etc so you have to make sure

26:34.1

26:39.1

okay who’s gonna be here is it gonna be
the technician the intern or somebody

26:39.1

26:43.1

technical can help solve this problems
who’s gonna be the service person how

26:43.1

26:46.4

often we gonna see the technical person
so we

26:46.4

26:51.5

do this with the client involved and I’m
asking the questions I’m and they’ll

26:51.5

26:55.6

give me questions they want to know –
you know how often you’re going to do

26:55.6

26:59.7

your courage and coupons you know we’ve
already told them that how often but

26:59.7

27:06.7

okay and like I like to see in a spin
spec like once a quarter and on a large

27:06.7

27:11.6

account where the water treater takes a
quart of water or two quarts of water

27:11.6

27:16.3

sends it back to his lab halves lab do
analysis and then he does whatever

27:16.3

27:19.5

analysis conveying and we make
comparisons to see if everything’s

27:19.5

27:25.7

correct and proper and if there isn’t
good correlation between that you change

27:25.7

27:31.6

and we oversee so normally on these kind
of systems I tend to provide quarterly

27:31.6

27:36.9

oversight all right so to recap you’ve
helped them write the bid specification

27:36.9

27:41.9

you’ve helped them quantify everybody
that’s replied to that bid specification

27:41.9

27:48.2

and now you help them select the right
person that that you feel that they feel

27:48.2

27:52.0

will work and meet that bid
specification based on an

27:52.0

27:56.1

apples-to-apples comparison because now
you’ve normalized everything and now

27:56.1

28:00.7

you’re actually working into the
contract and you’re providing an expert

28:00.7

28:05.7

set of eyes on everything that that
company is bringing to fulfill that bid

28:05.7

28:09.5

specification and saying all right we
need to see more of this you’re doing a

28:09.5

28:13.8

great job here J is that pretty much did
I get that right yeah you’ve hit that

28:13.8

28:18.1

what it is is you’re I could be your
either your best friend or your worst

28:18.1

28:24.5

nightmare because if you’re not doing
your job that’s a problem but I don’t

28:24.5

28:29.9

really select who’s getting paid
everybody thinks I do know what it is is

28:29.9

28:35.2

because we’re doing interviews and we’ve
had a pre-interview before the bid can

28:35.2

28:40.3

you do the job do you have the resources
to do that job I mean all the big

28:40.3

28:44.0

companies have insurance but we also
have some small companies that have bid

28:44.0

28:50.1

do they have the resources we’re trying
to make sure they have the resources to

28:50.1

28:55.8

do the job so by getting them together
the company may have six or seven people

28:55.8

29:00.0

that are sitting in on this meeting so
they’re hearing and this is an inter

29:00.0

29:03.9

just like you would for a job anybody
wants a job they’re going to a have an

29:03.9

29:08.1

interview and we’re gonna put them under
pressure you say this in your bids back

29:08.1

29:12.6

at night and you put them under pressure
and what happens is the people to

29:12.6

29:18.3

understand who is gonna be their best
partner in making money for their

29:18.3

29:25.8

company so it provides a very good
documentation for the client to choose a

29:25.8

29:31.6

partner to be part of his life I’m gonna
tell you Jay that sounds amazing

29:31.6

29:36.6

companies that we work with we’ve never
encountered that we will be asked to bid

29:36.6

29:42.8

on something and nine times out of ten
if not 10 times out of 10 it always goes

29:42.8

29:49.5

to low price and I always feel like I am
wasting my time because you taught me

29:49.5

29:54.3

very well my dad taught me very well
that if you’re gonna do water treatment

29:54.3

29:58.5

you’re gonna do it right and there’s so
many other companies that are just gonna

29:58.5

30:02.7

throw a number at that and normally it’s
a lower number and it comes in so many

30:02.7

30:06.8

times lower than what I could do it for
I can’t even pay a guy to drive out

30:06.8

30:12.3

there sometimes for the numbers that I
see on bid specifications we just say

30:12.3

30:15.7

you know what we’re just not going to do
bid work when it gets messed up that’s

30:15.7

30:19.0

when they’re gonna call us and we’ll fix
the problem should I be thinking

30:19.0

30:23.9

differently no I think you’ve hit the
nail right on ahead because one of the

30:23.9

30:28.3

things is there is a local company in
Pittsburgh that asked us to do exactly

30:28.3

30:33.3

that right a bid spec we wrote a bid
spec the first time we saw somebody bid

30:33.3

30:38.5

it they came in at such a low number was
90 some buildings for school district

30:38.5

30:45.6

and they bid such a low number said they
can’t do it they can’t do it they

30:45.6

30:50.2

figured a well we got we at the low bid
they gave him the chance and they found

30:50.2

30:56.4

out they couldn’t do the job so I mean
though that happens a lot but it’s when

30:56.4

31:02.5

when you do a bid look bid or bid spec
like we do it and equalize it what

31:02.5

31:08.7

happens is all of them say lowest and
most responsible bidder it comes down to

31:08.7

31:13.8

that most responsible they have that
option to move to a bidder that

31:13.8

31:18.8

more technically responsible for what’s
going to happen because we’re dealing

31:18.8

31:23.0

with pieces of equipment and most of
these plants half a million dollars

31:23.0

31:28.0

you know ascetical new coils might be
forty thousand to two by purchase two

31:28.0

31:33.4

coils and another twenty thousand to
install you know depending on where the

31:33.4

31:37.2

coils are how about a new boiler what’s
going on you know you’re dealing with

31:37.2

31:42.6

very expensive pieces of equipment I
mean a boiler in a one of our sugar

31:42.6

31:48.0

plants that we basically they re tubing
they’re spending 1.2 million dollars to

31:48.0

31:52.5

re tube and that boilers down so right
now they’re not producing from right

31:52.5

31:57.2

they’re not producing from that nurtured
that’s the biggest thing with a lot of

31:57.2

32:01.0

the plants we deal with most of the food
plants things like that they generate

32:01.0

32:05.8

their own electricity so they got their
steam boilers or either doing steam

32:05.8

32:10.2

conversion with turbines or they’re
having gas fired turbines and making

32:10.2

32:15.0

steam as a by-product orange juice
plants do that a lot you know we’ve got

32:15.0

32:19.2

different manufacturers that do these
kind of things so it’s it’s seeing all

32:19.2

32:24.7

this and trying to help the client to
make money I mean that’s what it is in

32:24.7

32:30.6

trying to save him money too I mean my
biggest thing is for end-users getting

32:30.6

32:36.1

it the way or setting it up the way we
do we have it set up to do that provides

32:36.1

32:40.8

them a real return on their investment
because they may be paying me to do

32:40.8

32:46.2

certain things but what it is is they
end up pointing in the long haul gotcha

32:46.2

32:51.4

well Jay you’ve seen a lot more bid
specifications than most people how

32:51.4

32:55.8

often do you see a requirement for a
certified water technologist well I

32:55.8

33:00.7

start putting it in to all the bid specs
that I write people would ask me about

33:00.7

33:06.0

it and I says basically we’re trying to
find qualified people and I put it in a

33:06.0

33:09.9

lot of bid specifications to get people
and I’ve seen it more and more people

33:09.9

33:14.7

copy my bid specs and put it in some
somebody else’s so it has been copied

33:14.7

33:18.8

quite a bit so we’re starting to see it
more and more in specifications well I’m

33:18.8

33:21.9

going to play devil’s advocate here so
there’s a listener there driving down

33:21.9

33:25.7

the road right now they don’t see any
need to get their certified water

33:25.7

33:28.8

technologist designation
and they’re thinking all were they’re

33:28.8

33:32.9

just trying to close the bid so only
their friends are people they know or

33:32.9

33:36.3

they can bid on it what do you say to
that well first off if I write a bid

33:36.3

33:41.3

spec I will not bid it I’m sorry I’m
gonna do it no I will not let GLA do it

33:41.3

33:47.8

either I think that’s not ethical I
stand by my ethics and the certified

33:47.8

33:54.0

Water Technologies of having good ethics
that’s really how I want to be and the

33:54.0

34:00.0

day I stopped doing that it’s another
problem the biggest thing is why I put

34:00.0

34:04.7

certified water technologists in and
then because I was a part of helping

34:04.7

34:09.0

develop a test and things like that
Angela will correct you it’s an

34:09.0

34:14.7

examining examination right a knowledge
examination because really here training

34:14.7

34:19.4

we do not teach to the exam it’s your
general knowledge that’s what it’s

34:19.4

34:24.6

supposed to be but we’ve worked with the
insurance companies like Mike I am hey

34:24.6

34:28.3

if you have a certified water
technologist it reduces your your your

34:28.3

34:34.0

cost your premiums so the importance of
become specifically right it is

34:34.0

34:39.2

significant so if you think about it the
importance of becoming a CWT is one to

34:39.2

34:44.3

prove to yourself that you could pass
that test and that you’re equal to the

34:44.3

34:47.7

other
CW T’s now that’s what it means you have

34:47.7

34:52.1

to have some self confidence and
provides you that get up and go hey I’ve

34:52.1

34:57.3

achieved something I mean we all want to
achieve something in life so it brings

34:57.3

35:03.9

you that sense of achievement so now you
feel a little bit more confident I don’t

35:03.9

35:09.5

say every CWT does it 100% right you
know not the way I would sometimes like

35:09.5

35:13.4

to see it but there’s no standards I
mean that’s the other thing we do as

35:13.4

35:18.4

part of the AWT we write we’re trying to
start to write standards so it’s getting

35:18.4

35:21.8

standards and growing on those kind of
things those standards are very

35:21.8

35:26.5

important for some of the things that I
do with expert witness work and things

35:26.5

35:30.4

like that they’re always asking is there
a standard out there is there a code or

35:30.4

35:39.6

whatever else there are none the ASHRAE
188 2015 in all 2018 is a standard that

35:39.6

35:42.4

is a truce
well let’s talk about that because

35:42.4

35:47.3

people get confused about is this a
guideline is this a standard is this a

35:47.3

35:52.6

recommendation what are the differences
with all of those well legally if it’s

35:52.6

35:58.7

not a standard it’s not required we may
think it’s good but that doesn’t mean

35:58.7

36:04.4

just because you think it’s good that’s
the common practice that’s what you have

36:04.4

36:10.7

to look at so when you look at standards
you’re that’s a requirement when you bid

36:10.7

36:15.5

a bid spec for a new building or
whatever else it tells you you must

36:15.5

36:20.7

clean the system you have to do it if
there it’s not in the bid spec you don’t

36:20.7

36:26.1

have to do it even though you think it’s
right so you may bid it and put that in

36:26.1

36:30.4

there but now that drives your number up
for that bid right and you’re talking

36:30.4

36:34.8

about new construction where you have to
clean the internal pipe right now as

36:34.8

36:41.3

part of NACE we’re writing that standard
we’re writing a pre cleaning standard so

36:41.3

36:45.6

that will become a standard an ace has a
lot of standards and ASHRAE has

36:45.6

36:53.1

standards and CPI is writing standards
we’re doing this to drive the industry

36:53.1

36:59.4

to try to help protect our members this
is what you got to do the thing is if

36:59.4

37:03.8

it’s in that bid spec and you don’t do
it then what happens is now you’re in

37:03.8

37:10.4

violation so if there’s a problem the
same thing is if you look at a piece of

37:10.4

37:15.1

equipment that might have water quality
guidelines for a eat bump or for a

37:15.1

37:19.1

boiler or whatever else if you’re
outside those guidelines you’re taking

37:19.1

37:23.5

full liability if there’s a failure so I
mean those are the things you have to

37:23.5

37:29.8

look at what happens now you had
mentioned AWT and standards I know

37:29.8

37:35.0

you’re very involved with that one why
don’t we have water treatment standards

37:35.0

37:39.5

and what are you doing to help with that
and let me even add one more to that do

37:39.5

37:45.8

we need them do you need standards well
you can say no but we all do it

37:45.8

37:51.4

differently so what happens when
something fails or something breaks if

37:51.4

37:56.4

there’s no standards
who cares so now it’s up to the jurors

37:56.4

38:01.5

to figure out who they want to blame if
we have standards guess what and if

38:01.5

38:05.5

you’re living up to the standards and
makes it easy hey hey I’m doing

38:05.5

38:10.3

everything per standard standard
protocols it gives you some liability

38:10.3

38:14.7

protection that’s the biggest thing hey
I’m doing everything I can

38:14.7

38:18.8

it failed it wasn’t you know it wasn’t
my fault

38:18.8

38:25.9

hey the the Legionella hey I’m following
the standard we talk about negligence

38:25.9

38:30.6

you want to take negligence off the
table because negligence is the

38:30.6

38:37.3

functionality of the lawsuits that
really drives the dollar value so if we

38:37.3

38:42.0

can take negligence off the table we’re
doing everything we can we’re doing it

38:42.0

38:47.4

per industry standards but if there’s no
industry standards guess what we can say

38:47.4

38:51.3

you’re negligent
it’s an opinion so how would you define

38:51.3

38:54.9

negligence when it comes to water
treatment because there’s no standards

38:54.9

38:59.0

how do I know and I see a lot of
people’s opinions come to a bit lot of

38:59.0

39:02.8

different conclusions but because
there’s no standards their opinion is

39:02.8

39:07.1

just like everything else and I’ll we
say hey an opinion is everybody has one

39:07.1

39:13.1

it doesn’t mean anything but if there’s
a rule or a law or a standard it puts

39:13.1

39:18.4

the guides right down I so badly want to
start asking you about expert witness

39:18.4

39:22.2

and how a jury would make their decision
but I’m going not to do that right now

39:22.2

39:27.6

because I want to stay with the standard
conversation so you are a strong

39:27.6

39:33.5

proponent that we need a basic standard
that allows us to as you say take

39:33.5

39:38.4

negligence off the table now we’re on a
more level playing field and a lot of

39:38.4

39:41.7

people might say well if I have this
standard you know I’m not going to be

39:41.7

39:44.3

able to exceed this standard and that’s
not true is it

39:44.3

39:48.2

sure you can exceed the standard time if
you’re exceeding the standard might be

39:48.2

39:53.2

even better but what it does is here’s a
minimum standard so it’s the same thing

39:53.2

39:58.0

as when I write my bid specs I say you
will do this kind of testing the one of

39:58.0

40:02.0

the biggest problems are that I see in
our industry is there’s a lot of people

40:02.0

40:05.7

going out there and doing
just the conductivity or just the

40:05.7

40:12.3

inhibitor or the PhD si or whatever else
so they’re not doing enough testing and

40:12.3

40:15.8

those are the people that are getting
the business on the low bids because

40:15.8

40:19.1

people like you and I are actually
putting it in that we’re going to do it

40:19.1

40:22.2

right and we’re too high and they’re not
gonna go with that’s right so what it

40:22.2

40:28.1

does is raise all boats we want to try
to make everything equal and it has said

40:28.1

40:33.2

if by also making things equal it
protects our members and the other

40:33.2

40:36.3

people in the water treatment industry
so it drives the people that aren’t

40:36.3

40:40.3

doing it right or don’t want to do it
right they just want to make come in and

40:40.3

40:45.5

make their fast buck it’s the same as as
doctors and lawyers and things like that

40:45.5

40:52.6

they write standards for their members
they write standards to drive the quacks

40:52.6

40:57.8

away hopefully they drive them away and
get them out of the thing this is a very

40:57.8

41:03.5

professional business we are water
doctors you we have to know biology

41:03.5

41:09.6

chemistry metallurgy mechanical
engineering Chemical Engineering

41:09.6

41:15.2

regulatory we’re doing so many darn
things we are doctors we are water

41:15.2

41:21.1

doctors we’re solving our customers
problems we’ve solve our customers

41:21.1

41:29.0

problems so definitely they are sick
we’re helping them through and the thing

41:29.0

41:37.1

is we have water doctors we have interns
and we have physicians assistants so we

41:37.1

41:44.0

have the same thing now as a patient do
you just want to go see the intern or do

41:44.0

41:46.8

you won’t want to go see a quack or do
you want to see the doctor you want to

41:46.8

41:52.9

see the physicians physician’s assistant
and say okay I pay for this you have

41:52.9

41:59.5

that choice but if you die just seeing a
quack he’s out of business tomorrow who

41:59.5

42:05.5

cares that’s an interesting analogy I
think it puts it in perspective so right

42:05.5

42:10.9

now we do not have any water treatment
standards what’s being done to correct

42:10.9

42:15.8

that the AWT through its standards Task
Forces were actually we’re trying to

42:15.8

42:20.8

write standards
dsdm we’re also looking at nasa’s

42:20.8

42:25.6

writing standards there are certain
standards for how you do testing form

42:25.6

42:29.5

ASTM talked a little bit about ASTM
because there are a lot of members in

42:29.5

42:34.0

the nation that may not know about that
ASTM is a American Society for testing

42:34.0

42:40.2

materials and they have multiple
multiple groups indoor air quality steel

42:40.2

42:44.6

everything so they cover a lot of
different bases and there’s a lot of

42:44.6

42:49.8

different groups but in water that if
you look most of our like standard

42:49.8

42:56.4

methods or ASTM they have developed the
test procedures they’re also to develop

42:56.4

43:02.5

online procedures to make sure all the
equipment it meets the same criteria so

43:02.5

43:06.3

when you’re doing your alkalinity z’
you’re doing your chlorides you do it

43:06.3

43:13.5

the proper way that’s that’s a written
test method procedure and standard so it

43:13.5

43:18.7

tells you what chemistry’s to use it
keeps everything uniform so when you’re

43:18.7

43:21.8

doing alkalinity
well there’s a lot of ways to report

43:21.8

43:26.5

alkalinity he isn’t there we all report
it as calcium carbonate but you can

43:26.5

43:32.5

report it as other things so it gives
you some type of qualification to

43:32.5

43:36.7

compare numbers
I mean you showed yesterday in your math

43:36.7

43:42.8

converting chlorides to sodium chloride
things like that so it’s doing things

43:42.8

43:47.3

and trying to make some give provides
some consistency between your numbers

43:47.3

43:54.4

the ASTM right standards for producing
metal is it erw piping or is it whatever

43:54.4

43:59.0

else how do you form it do you post
heat-treated do you not post heat treat

43:59.0

44:02.9

it and they call give it different
standards how thick is that metal so

44:02.9

44:06.7

what happens is if you don’t have
standards guess what you can make

44:06.7

44:11.2

whatever thickness you want if it fails
tomorrow who cares so I mean that’s what

44:11.2

44:16.6

happens but the people out there or the
client well I bought that piece of pipe

44:16.6

44:21.6

well what piece of pipe did you buy I
don’t know was a schedule 5 schedule 10

44:21.6

44:27.7

schedule 40 schedule 80 was it erw
piping how was it formed was opposed he

44:27.7

44:33.2

treated not post he treated
so when we go into a heat pump what’s

44:33.2

44:37.6

the heat pump I mean with your treatment
and everything else you’ve got different

44:37.6

44:42.7

pieces of equipment some heat pumps up
enhanced tubes some don’t I mean most of

44:42.7

44:47.9

our chillers today in HVAC all have
enhanced tubes but if I have one through

44:47.9

44:52.5

water I may not have enhanced tubes okay
what are some of the things that you’re

44:52.5

44:56.1

actually doing with writing these
standards and can you tell us some of

44:56.1

45:00.2

the things that you’re suggesting that
going the standards well for the NACE

45:00.2

45:05.0

standard for the cleaning we’re going
through the cleaning process of what you

45:05.0

45:10.3

should do with new and even used
equipment or what you should do when

45:10.3

45:15.8

you’re taking a refurbishing or remaking
or even when you take over some we’re

45:15.8

45:20.4

writing some cleaning procedures and
what the importance of cleaning is so

45:20.4

45:26.2

we’re looking at all that to write a
standard the other thing is monitoring

45:26.2

45:30.6

standards we’re looking at monitoring
standards for cooling water what testing

45:30.6

45:33.9

should you do
corrosion besides just corrosion coupons

45:33.9

45:39.1

I mean some people don’t do corrosion
coupons at all what kind of biology

45:39.1

45:45.8

testing um microbiological testing you
know what’s even for taking of

45:45.8

45:50.7

Legionella samples what’s the standard
for taking a Legionella sample properly

45:50.7

45:56.4

what’s really representative of taking
that do you take a first draw sample do

45:56.4

46:00.4

you take a flush sample where do you
take your samples do you take the

46:00.4

46:05.5

aerator off do you not take the aerator
off so you’re even looking at those kind

46:05.5

46:11.5

of things to say let’s write a standard
so everybody’s doing it the same I mean

46:11.5

46:17.1

I guarantee you we can take Legionella
samples all day I guarantee I can make

46:17.1

46:22.9

samples pass and fail just by the way I
take the sentence sample so what good is

46:22.9

46:28.3

the data if you can do that is it really
representative that’s the question you

46:28.3

46:33.2

have to ask yourself so if I’m taking a
first raw sample from my hot water

46:33.2

46:38.1

heater plus a flush sample why do you
take them the same thing is do I take a

46:38.1

46:42.4

first draw out of my tap or do I let it
get up to 120 degrees and then take my

46:42.4

46:44.8

sample
so you’re doing this for a hospital

46:44.8

46:50.0

we’re being required to do all this
Legionella testing based on CMS

46:50.0

46:53.0

requirements how do you why do you want
to do it do you want to do it right or

46:53.0

46:57.7

you want to do it wrong do you want it
to fail or you want it to pass what’s

46:57.7

47:00.9

your goal here but if you have a
standard and tell everybody to do it

47:00.9

47:05.4

exactly the same way the testing is all
done they try to do it the same way I

47:05.4

47:10.8

mean that’s how they become CDC elite
labs and things like that so isn’t the

47:10.8

47:16.0

sampling the same thing let me ask you
Jay there’s a new water treat are out

47:16.0

47:19.4

there maybe there’s a new water
treatment company out there and they

47:19.4

47:24.4

want to make sure they’re doing at least
the minimum if it were up to you what

47:24.4

47:30.0

would every water treatment company do
as a minimum for water treatment

47:30.0

47:35.1

well first off your makeup water’s
constantly changing so if you’re not

47:35.1

47:39.9

monitoring your makeup water every time
in you have a problem here Houston

47:39.9

47:45.0

because whatever you’re putting in goes
in the cooling tower it goes into the

47:45.0

47:52.3

boiler we’re working on a facility right
now had a condensate polisher they

47:52.3

47:57.7

because the facility basically had a
leak in one of their domestic hot water

47:57.7

48:02.1

returns from their steam so the
condensate had a lot of hardness in it

48:02.1

48:07.7

conductivity side they couldn’t locate
which hot water domestic hot water tank

48:07.7

48:12.1

was leaking but they knew one of them
was fine so they put a condensate

48:12.1

48:17.1

polisher which is a water softener what
tests you do on a water softener just

48:17.1

48:22.3

feed water just hardness oh it’s good is
that what we say no you’re supposed to

48:22.3

48:25.6

be a problem solver do you check
conductivity do you see if there’s

48:25.6

48:30.9

chlorides in there well what happened is
on this from the condensate polisher the

48:30.9

48:35.2

condensate polisher was leaching
chlorides out it destroyed the aerator

48:35.2

48:40.5

now we’re talking 500 thousand dollars
to replace the aerator it also destroyed

48:40.5

48:45.2

the vent condenser there’s big pieces of
equipment we’re dealing with so it

48:45.2

48:50.8

depends on the pieces of equipment that
you’re dealing with and the cost factors

48:50.8

48:56.3

so you’re generating your test
procedures should all be based

48:56.3

49:01.6

on the cost factors for the client and
it could be a very small cooling tower

49:01.6

49:06.1

but but it might be on top of a 50-story
building how do you get a cooling tower

49:06.1

49:10.9

something two ways on top of a 50-story
building it’s a helicopter

49:10.9

49:15.4

that’s not cheap that’s not cheap
there’s so many other things to go into

49:15.4

49:20.0

that so you definitely have to test the
makeup water and you should be doing

49:20.0

49:24.4

enough tests to provide you information
about that makeup water and my new

49:24.4

49:29.3

changes could be the phosphate coming in
could be higher or lower the aluminum

49:29.3

49:33.9

you know we get some aluminum in from
our things now you’re not may not do

49:33.9

49:37.7

that aluminum number all the time but
you might want to do the aluminum number

49:37.7

49:42.5

every six months you might miss
something or if you have problems we

49:42.5

49:47.1

know from Bruce’s training than aluminum
getting into a water softeners because

49:47.1

49:51.5

it’s a plus 3 ion stays on the resin
beads think about resin beads can other

49:51.5

49:56.4

do other things also so you have to look
at those kinds of things and say how can

49:56.4

50:01.4

those factors impact me and some of
that’s just you can tell by your

50:01.4

50:05.4

conductivity is it really changing but
if you’re doing your PNM alkyl loonie

50:05.4

50:09.6

waters change all the time
you have drought conditions you have

50:09.6

50:14.2

rainy conditions I mean right now in the
city of Pittsburgh and around the

50:14.2

50:18.9

surrounding areas our conductivity in
our office is normally as around 1,100

50:18.9

50:25.2

right now it’s around 600 so building
around us hey I used to be 1,100 now I’m

50:25.2

50:32.3

600 with an alkalinity of of 300 verses
down to 150 do you change your treatment

50:32.3

50:35.9

program for that sure you do so if
you’re not testing your city water and

50:35.9

50:41.1

doing enough analysis how do you know so
it depends on after that are you dealing

50:41.1

50:44.7

with cooling towers are you doing your
corrosion coupons are you doing

50:44.7

50:49.3

biologicals we’re supposed to protect
protecting systems from corrosion

50:49.3

50:54.6

fouling microbiological growth and scale
are you doing your balances are you

50:54.6

51:00.5

doing iron and coppers why am i doing
coppers oh because heat exchangers made

51:00.5

51:06.5

copper you know you just you you want to
build trends the more data you have the

51:06.5

51:11.1

easier it is to build trends that’s
we have these services and other things

51:11.1

51:17.6

like that to generate information so we
as water doctors you wouldn’t go to a

51:17.6

51:23.3

physician and say well don’t do any
tests on me I could be dying well how

51:23.3

51:26.0

you gonna know if you don’t do any
testing and you’re only doing the

51:26.0

51:29.3

inhibitor in the conductivity and there
everything’s good

51:29.3

51:34.8

that is the comment that I hate to see
on reports matter of fact I saw a report

51:34.8

51:39.5

just last week from a company that I
will not mention and there was

51:39.5

51:45.7

conductivity on there and pts a just on
the cooling tower water and the comet

51:45.7

51:51.3

set everything looks not just good J but
great everything looks great

51:51.3

51:55.6

they ran two parameters and wrote that
comment down and they were on to the

51:55.6

52:00.1

next job now you understand why I write
bit specifications and say this is the

52:00.1

52:04.3

way you should be doing it and we’re the
company I can bid we’re very low

52:04.3

52:07.7

I’d only having my guy there for a half
hour and spending most of the time

52:07.7

52:13.2

buying cookies or killing them giving
donuts that’s that’s the whole issue

52:13.2

52:18.7

that’s what you you’re not providing a
good service do you want to be the best

52:18.7

52:22.7

doctor you can be I always like to tell
people that how do you know you know

52:22.7

52:28.4

what what do you know from the testing
that you’re doing that actually

52:28.4

52:32.6

validates that you’re doing what you’re
supposed to be doing and I think there’s

52:32.6

52:38.2

so many people out there that don’t ask
that magic question why why do I run

52:38.2

52:42.1

this test why wouldn’t I run this test
what am I going to do with that test

52:42.1

52:47.7

when people start asking that question
then it becomes very apparent to why

52:47.7

52:51.4

they need to run other testing because
it’s going to lay down the path of what

52:51.4

52:57.8

they need to do what’s going on with the
system and with that you know maybe we

52:57.8

53:03.2

don’t need a standard people ask that
question more but for some reason we’ve

53:03.2

53:07.0

got a lot of service reports with two
parameters on them and everything looks

53:07.0

53:12.1

good so why not have a standard so we
all bring each other up to a level

53:12.1

53:16.3

playing field and the customer gets
customers don’t understand water

53:16.3

53:20.7

treatment don’t tell us that that you do
there’s so many of us that don’t explain

53:20.7

53:24.2

it to them
and I never understood why that is is

53:24.2

53:28.6

that because we don’t want that I’m
saying we collectively I know you and I

53:28.6

53:33.0

do a really good job of explaining what
it is that we do but generally water

53:33.0

53:37.0

treaters don’t I want to keep my
customer in the dark a little bit so

53:37.0

53:41.0

maybe they don’t hold me accountable
maybe they don’t ask me to do other

53:41.0

53:45.4

tests I don’t know why that is why do
you think that is J well I think it’s

53:45.4

53:49.1

probably what you said they you’re
hoping they don’t hold you accountable

53:49.1

53:53.7

but the problem is when we walk in if
you look at feet when I do the expert

53:53.7

53:58.5

witness the lawyers take us to be the
experts they take the client to be the

53:58.5

54:03.0

dummy we are the experts when we walk in
there you know about water don’t you yes

54:03.0

54:07.5

that’s the answer you’re gonna give then
you could say it’s not it’s not I don’t

54:07.5

54:10.8

worry about that oh I don’t worry about
that don’t you think you should worry

54:10.8

54:14.7

about it you know do you do you think
you should worry about the equipment if

54:14.7

54:19.6

the equipment specification says no more
than 17 milligrams per liter of

54:19.6

54:25.0

suspended solids don’t you think you
should be monitoring that and it’s in a

54:25.0

54:28.6

heat pump system I mean the water
furnace heat pumps in me Trane heat

54:28.6

54:33.5

pumps say 17 milligrams per liter of
total suspended solids do you think you

54:33.5

54:37.2

should be monitoring it should you think
you should be putting filtration on that

54:37.2

54:41.0

system because you might not be able to
detain that I mean myself I like to do

54:41.0

54:46.1

balances to compare my balances my
calcium and chloride balance versus

54:46.1

54:50.0

conductivity balance but sometimes they
can’t use chloride because it’s

54:50.0

54:54.4

somebody’s feeding bleach can’t use
chloride or from reading one of the

54:54.4

54:59.9

other oxidizing bio sites or if I’m
there to the ocean if my cooling towers

54:59.9

55:04.0

near the ocean that’s gonna pull off
drift from the ocean itself which has

55:04.0

55:08.0

high chlorides so now I might have to
run silica or I might have to run other

55:08.0

55:13.5

balances so you have to look at that
also silica may not work I hate dust

55:13.5

55:18.9

storm you have to think and you have to
run multiple balances and see where the

55:18.9

55:22.7

number is you can’t just use
conductivity because guess what what

55:22.7

55:26.1

also drives conductivity
oh that drift bringing in silica that

55:26.1

55:29.0

drives it in chlorides
oh that also drives up the conductivity

55:29.0

55:32.6

so you can’t just use use conductivity
you have to use a lot of different

55:32.6

55:35.7

things
so the more bullets you have in your

55:35.7

55:41.0

belt or the more testing you do it
provides you information to provide

55:41.0

55:46.3

solutions to your client and the whole
biggest thing of this whole industry is

55:46.3

55:52.2

we are water doctors as I said isn’t it
great when you predict what’s going to

55:52.2

55:55.6

happen before it happens doesn’t the
client look at you a little bit

55:55.6

55:59.8

differently do you’ve told them what was
gonna happen it would have happened okay

55:59.8

56:03.8

you got this boiler feedwater tank
that’s running at 50 degrees you’re

56:03.8

56:07.7

gonna pit up all this metal if you keep
doing that and then they open it up and

56:07.7

56:11.8

that happen hey you’re a magician no
it’s not that’s just how things work and

56:11.8

56:16.9

it’s testing you’ve done enough testing
to predict what’s going to happen he may

56:16.9

56:21.3

decide not to do what you want him to do
do what you need to do that you need to

56:21.3

56:25.5

raise the water temperature of your feed
water tank and hey you know that’s gonna

56:25.5

56:30.7

cost me X amount of dollars to do he
makes that thing but what happens is you

56:30.7

56:35.6

just look like a genius and J if there
is one thing that you have drilled into

56:35.6

56:40.7

me for the last 20 years it’s when you
have that conversation with that client

56:40.7

56:46.7

write it down if it didn’t get written
down you always told me it did not

56:46.7

56:53.2

happen I set that to a lawyer the other
days is can you tell me something and I

56:53.2

56:58.3

said wow if it wasn’t written down it
wasn’t done but the thing is that’s that

56:58.3

57:04.3

sometimes is is to me one of your base
protecting statements are you you know

57:04.3

57:11.4

when I see on a water treatment report
feed water temperatures or other things

57:11.4

57:16.3

it provides more information to solve
problems and when those kind of it that

57:16.3

57:23.7

kind of information is on data it makes
it so easy to solve problems and provide

57:23.7

57:27.8

understanding of what’s occurring why
things are corroding why things are

57:27.8

57:33.8

happening and that’s why doing so much
testing is so very important I mean yes

57:33.8

57:38.2

can you over test I’m sure you can I
mean we don’t want our doctors over

57:38.2

57:42.5

testing but why do that why do they test
why do our doctors send us for more

57:42.5

57:47.2

tests and maybe what they should for
liability because of you just get sick

57:47.2

57:50.0

and
your family is going to sue that doctor

57:50.0

57:55.6

what do you think what are we are we any
different we’re gonna get sued if we’re

57:55.6

57:59.4

not if we’re doing enough testing then
we can predict what happens and we can

57:59.4

58:05.0

stop what’s gonna happen we can probably
help solve that patient Jay let me ask

58:05.0

58:10.4

when can the Scaling UP! nation
anticipate to see these standards coming

58:10.4

58:15.9

out that you’re talking about give me
more time in a day give me more time in

58:15.9

58:20.0

a day and you know it’s it’s true you
know we’re trying to write the standards

58:20.0

58:25.9

based on getting consensus so to be
clear this just isn’t you sitting in a

58:25.9

58:29.9

room writing standards you’re working
with a whole bunch of people over a

58:29.9

58:35.0

whole sampling of the different water
treatment areas cloud it’s just not just

58:35.0

58:39.1

water treatment people with other people
in other industries what they want to

58:39.1

58:47.3

see in ASTM D 1903 we have multiple
people sitting on that committee and we

58:47.3

58:51.4

look at different things to say okay how
we’re going to write this and that they

58:51.4

58:59.4

provide input and looking at peer review
how long did it take 188 to be developed

58:59.4

59:05.8

years years so it just doesn’t happen
overnight so it’s people who you know

59:05.8

59:10.5

getting people involved it’s like
anything else even in the AWT getting

59:10.5

59:16.2

volunteers to do it and then remember
volunteering you you’re not getting paid

59:16.2

59:20.9

to do it well Jay I’ve got so many
questions to ask you I’m gonna ask that

59:20.9

59:26.8

you come back next week and we pick up –
what I’ve been dying to ask you about

59:26.8

59:31.2

where we take all the information that
we’ve been talking about this week you

59:31.2

59:37.1

reviewing customer service reports and
finding out was somebody negligent and

59:37.1

59:43.7

now you’re acting as an expert in that
area and you’re either for or against

59:43.7

59:50.3

somebody and you’re talking to a jury
because this is now gone to court so if

59:50.3

59:53.3

you don’t mind I’d love to have you back
next week and talk about that that

59:53.3

59:57.3

sounds good all right Jay thank you so
much for coming on and we will see you

59:57.3

59:59.7

next week
okay trace

59:59.7

1:00:06.6

nation I told you Jay Farmerie is just a
wealth of information so much so we

1:00:06.6

1:00:12.6

couldn’t finish today’s episode we’re
gonna go ahead and stack it into next

1:00:12.6

1:00:19.8

week so when we come back we’re going to
talk about what it’s like for J to be an

1:00:19.8

1:00:25.8

expert witness with water treatment now
today’s episode I hope you’re thinking

1:00:25.8

1:00:31.2

if we had a standard out there that
would not only make my job easier

1:00:31.2

1:00:37.9

because I knew what I was working to it
allows us to better educate our customer

1:00:37.9

1:00:43.8

in what they should expect in water
treatment now J doesn’t get paid a cent

1:00:43.8

1:00:48.6

for all of the work that he does on
those committees and neither does

1:00:48.6

1:00:54.0

anybody else who works on those
committees they see a need for something

1:00:54.0

1:00:59.8

and then they give their time to benefit
the industry to make the entire industry

1:00:59.8

1:01:05.5

better so for all those out there that
are working on these committees thank

1:01:05.5

1:01:10.0

you for doing that because as we all
know a rising tide f initely

1:01:10.0

1:01:15.0

raises all boats and we appreciate your
work for that well next week folks we’re

1:01:15.0

1:01:20.1

gonna come back with J farmer E and
we’re gonna learn about what we should

1:01:20.1

1:01:24.1

be doing today of course there’s no
court that we’re talking about at all

1:01:24.1

1:01:28.1

there’s no issues with customers
nobody’s complained about anything and

1:01:28.1

1:01:34.0

we’ve definitely don’t have a lawsuit
against our companies but how would we

1:01:34.0

1:01:40.3

work differently today if we were able
to take a glimpse out of what somebody

1:01:40.3

1:01:47.2

like J does in the court room and now we
can get things in order so maybe they’ll

1:01:47.2

1:01:50.9

never get that far
folks I can’t wait to come at you next

1:01:50.9

1:01:57.2

week on Scaling UP! h2o

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