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0:08.1
0:12.4
welcome to Scaling UP! the podcast where
we’re Scaling UP! on knowledge so we
0:12.4
0:16.4
don’t Scaling UP! our systems
hi everybody Trace Blackmore here your
0:16.4
0:24.3
host for scaling up h2o folks I am so
excited about today’s show we have so
0:24.3
0:30.1
much information packed into today’s
show that we’re probably not going to be
0:30.1
0:35.9
able to do it all in one show I am
speaking with one of the people that I
0:35.9
0:42.1
consider my mentors and you met him in
industrial Water Week a few months ago
0:42.1
0:47.9
his name is Jay Farmerie CWT and I’m
going to tell you a little bit about the
0:47.9
0:57.0
story of how Jay and I got that mentor
mentee relationship I went to the AWT
0:57.0
1:03.7
technical training seminar and I want to
say it was middle 90s and it was the
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1:10.7
first AWT event that I had ever attended
and I gotta tell you I was nervous I
1:10.7
1:16.0
didn’t know anybody and talk about
drinking from a firehose
1:16.0
1:21.8
I think we have a kinder gentler
technical training today it’s still a
1:21.8
1:26.5
lot of information and folks it’s still
drinking from a firehose but back then
1:26.5
1:32.5
there was just so much stuff and I want
to say that the people that were
1:32.5
1:36.8
presenting were a lot more intense back
then so again I think we have a kind ler
1:36.8
1:42.3
a gentler training now but the training
methane was also amazing and I remember
1:42.3
1:48.2
I listened to so many awesome speakers
get up there and teach me about water
1:48.2
1:52.7
treatment and I was thinking wow I
really can’t wait to go home and put
1:52.7
1:57.3
some of this stuff into practice and I
did some of the same note taking
1:57.3
2:02.0
techniques that I’ve shared with you on
this show with the present technical
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2:07.4
training I did that back then so I am
telling you that stuff like that works
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2:11.0
I’m not going to get too much into that
today because we’ve talked about that on
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2:16.4
earlier shows but something I also
talked about on earlier shows is find
2:16.4
2:21.0
people out there in the water treatment
community that can be immense
2:21.0
2:26.9
or to you that can help guide you
through the trail of becoming a really
2:26.9
2:32.7
good professional water treater and then
use their knowledge use their mistakes
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2:38.3
use their triumphs to help you become
that water treat or that you want to be
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2:46.7
so I remember I had asked a question and
one of the attendees answered it in such
2:46.7
2:52.1
a way that didn’t make me feel so smart
right then I should have had every
2:52.1
2:57.7
inclination to just shut down and and
not advance myself in approaching
2:57.7
3:01.7
somebody for as a mentor now this was
not Jay that did this this was somebody
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3:06.8
else and he’s no longer one of the
trainers but he did a great job he just
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3:12.9
didn’t think that I had a very smart
question with that I decided with all of
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3:18.0
that self-doubt because of what that
speaker said to me I was still going to
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3:23.7
introduce myself to the speakers so they
at least knew who tres Blackmore was and
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3:29.8
I remember I sat down I made it a point
to sit down next to Jay farmer II and
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3:35.1
then Bruce Catterick sat right on the
other side of me folks that was one of
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3:40.3
the most intimidating lunches I have
ever had I regard both of those
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3:46.3
individuals as water treatment Jedi and
they were asking me questions they were
3:46.3
3:49.6
asking the table questions they did a
really good job of keeping dialogue
3:49.6
3:56.0
going during lunch and I remember
thinking I need to get to know these two
3:56.0
4:01.0
individuals and I went to the training
the following year and I think that’s so
4:01.0
4:06.2
key when you’re going to any training
seminar like the AWT technical training
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4:10.7
you have to make sure that you’re not
going in with a mindset that I’m going
4:10.7
4:15.7
once and I’m gonna know everything from
going once folks it is that drinking
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4:21.7
from a firehose scenario and if you can
just get a little bit out of that fire
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4:27.4
hose to fill your cup and the cup is
what you don’t know I don’t know
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4:32.5
something I’m going to try to figure out
the things that I don’t know and I’m
4:32.5
4:36.3
going to start filling my cup up
with that that’s why you go multiple
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4:43.0
times so I went the next year and I made
it a point to approach J farmer E and
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4:48.2
complement him that I really thought he
was the water treater that I wanted to
4:48.2
4:55.2
become and I asked him if he would be a
mentor and he had no reason to say yes
4:55.2
5:02.3
but he did say yes and that’s been for
just about 20 years if not 20 years and
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5:08.7
J has just been phenomenal I also asked
that question to Bruce Catterick and and
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5:15.2
he’s been great too and folks I tell you
it’s so much easier to become better at
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5:21.7
this job when you’re not doing it alone
so whether you’re reaching out to one of
5:21.7
5:27.0
your co-workers or maybe your boss or
somebody you met at a training seminar
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5:32.5
it is so much easier to become a better
water treater when you have people
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5:38.3
helping you out and Jay has done exactly
that for the amount of time that I have
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5:44.7
known him he has just been a window of
knowledge he never holds anything back
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5:50.6
and if I ask a question I normally get
more information back than I really want
5:50.6
5:53.8
but I learned through the process I
don’t know if you’ve ever asked Jay
5:53.8
5:57.9
farmer your question but you are not
going to get an answer back you’re gonna
5:57.9
6:04.2
get about 20 questions back and because
of those 20 questions you’re able to
6:04.2
6:08.8
learn through the process and the thing
that he does and I’m gonna have to ask
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6:13.2
him if he knows he does this or not but
he now positions me that I don’t ever
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6:17.8
have to ask him that question again I
ask him a new question because he taught
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6:23.0
me how to think through the issue that I
was having in a way that I could think
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6:28.1
through it the next time that that issue
came up so I am going to ask Jay about
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6:37.1
that question and so many more because
my guest today is a Jay farmer II CWT I
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6:41.2
know you’re going to enjoy this
interview so please welcome Jay farmer
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6:47.9
II CWT my lab partner today is Jay
farmer EJ thank you so much for
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6:51.9
on Scaling UP! I know we’ve tried doing
this once before we had some technical
6:51.9
6:57.7
issues but you and I said hey we’re here
in sunny San Diego together at the AWT
6:57.7
7:03.0
technical training so why not just get
together and do this interview so thank
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7:06.9
you for being here thank you for the
training that you do for AWT we’re gonna
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7:11.2
talk about that a little bit and thank
you for talking to the Scaling UP! nation
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7:17.6
welcome Jay thank you trace I first want
to say I really appreciate you and your
7:17.6
7:22.0
podcasts and you’re doing a really great
job well Jay I talked a lot about
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7:27.8
mentors on the show and you and I have
known each other is it coming on 20
7:27.8
7:33.1
years it has to be and I remember that
the first time I believe I ever laid
7:33.1
7:38.4
eyes on you I didn’t know who Jay farmer
he was I listened to you at an AWT
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7:43.8
technical training seminar and I said
that is a smart dude that guy knows
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7:49.3
water treatment and I want to know at
least a small fraction of what he knows
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7:55.2
I need to connect myself with that guide
I made it a point that I ate lunch next
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7:59.6
to you and I was too scared the first
time I met you to ask if you would
7:59.6
8:05.0
mentor me but the next time I saw you I
asked you those exact words and you so
8:05.0
8:09.2
graciously said absolutely I will do
that and Jay you’ve been a tremendous
8:09.2
8:15.0
mentor and it’s because of people like
yourself pouring into me that I’m able
8:15.0
8:20.8
to do this show so I appreciate you
thanking me but this is a result of me
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8:24.7
doing exactly what I tell other people
on the scale in our nation to do that it
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8:29.4
takes a village to build any water
treater and I want to thank you for
8:29.4
8:34.0
being my mentor well we always want to
get back to this industry and basically
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8:39.6
it’s it’s what you learn and what you
want to give back and being a smart dude
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8:43.6
as Colin says sometimes we have to make
it up that’s right he does that with a
8:43.6
8:47.0
with a British accent so he sounds even
smarter when he does that Kyle was
8:47.0
8:49.7
supposed to come on the show he keeps
blowing me off so eventually I think
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8:53.0
I’ll get calling it that definitely get
calling me we live in the same state but
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8:55.3
we never see each other that happens a
lot
8:55.3
8:59.8
Fred pot off used to be on a board of
directors at one time and
8:59.8
9:03.0
he always said the only time we have
received which one another and we’re
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9:08.3
both in Pittsburgh is when we come out
of out of Pittsburgh gotcha John’s a
9:08.3
9:13.0
breed is the same way so I guess that’s
just how it works we’re all so busy
9:13.0
9:18.0
doing our jobs we have to take time out
of doing our jobs to come to places like
9:18.0
9:23.2
AWT venues and that’s why you and I are
able to talk like we are today well Jay
9:23.2
9:28.3
I have known you for years again I
consider you my mentor you’ve helped me
9:28.3
9:31.1
so much but I know there’s some people
out there in the Scaling UP! nation that
9:31.1
9:35.7
might not have met Jay farmer yet so do
you mind telling them a little bit about
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9:42.2
yourself fine trace basically executive
consultant for Cyrus rice water
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9:47.0
consultants and I’m also the technical
director and vice president of
9:47.0
9:52.7
operations for GLA water consultants GLA
water consultants is another water
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9:54.4
treatment company just like everybody
else
9:54.4
10:01.9
and Cyrus rice is just strictly a
consulting firm we provide consulting to
10:01.9
10:07.8
the end users and to other AWT members
and quite a few things across the nation
10:07.8
10:12.7
across the world I’ve been to a lot of
different places and do a lot of
10:12.7
10:17.8
different things in refineries steel
mills you name it
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10:24.1
I’ve seen just about seeing a lot yeah
you have a very impressive resume nation
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10:27.3
I’m sure you know this I’m sure I’ve
said it on the phone before but when I
10:27.3
10:31.2
don’t know the answer Jay is one of the
people that I call and Jay you have a
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10:33.6
knack that you never give a direct
answer
10:33.6
10:38.9
you asked 40 more questions on top of my
one question and I tell you by you doing
10:38.9
10:43.0
that I start thinking about things in a
different way and more often than not I
10:43.0
10:47.3
come up with my own answer do you do
that on purpose well the biggest thing
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10:52.7
part of it yes because you have to find
out more about a system as I was telling
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10:56.6
somebody downstairs you can have two
buildings sitting right next to one
10:56.6
11:00.4
another they may have the same water
going in but they have different pieces
11:00.4
11:04.8
of equipment and if you really look at
the different pieces of equipment even
11:04.8
11:11.0
though they may both may be condensers
or cooling towers or boilers or whatever
11:11.0
11:14.8
they are they’re probably
a little bit different and they have
11:14.8
11:19.9
different dynamics so by knowing all the
dynamics then you make the right choice
11:19.9
11:23.6
and then metallurgy also becomes
something portable where you’re laying
11:23.6
11:28.2
down a bunch of words that we’re getting
ready to unpack later in the show one
11:28.2
11:34.8
thing I want to start with is how did
you get in to water treatment well it’s
11:34.8
11:40.9
been a long time ago in college I
basically decided I needed to do some
11:40.9
11:45.7
type of internship and that’s before
colleges really did a lot of internships
11:45.7
11:53.7
but I my mentor in college was my P chem
professor hade like you to do an
11:53.7
11:58.7
internship how about going to work for
Bethlehem Steel and it’s bedlam that’s
11:58.7
12:01.5
the way they say it in Bethlehem
Pennsylvania
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12:08.6
so now Bethlehem bedlam there you go now
you know so basically I start working in
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12:14.7
Bethlehem Steel’s or peplums steels
waste water working on some projects for
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12:22.3
that for them under the guidance of my
my mentor and professor at school so
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12:29.0
didn’t realize that that was going to be
my life’s calling so then I left school
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12:34.5
and and I started to work at US Steel
and I worked with clarin Works clarin
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12:39.8
Works is a big chemical plant most
people think of as just a coke works but
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12:44.0
they were taking all the off gasses from
the coke and making into kenton
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12:48.3
different chemicals and they had
multiple different areas and I worked in
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12:54.5
the labs and we would go out and doing
shift work at different sites across the
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12:59.9
claritin coke works now J I’m betting a
lot of people in the nation don’t know
12:59.9
13:04.5
what coke is now to me coke is Dixie
champagne I’m from Atlanta Georgia but
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13:08.0
that’s not what we’re talking about what
exactly is coke coke is used to make
13:08.0
13:12.8
steel and it’s one of the things used in
the first part of the process so they
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13:17.5
have to take coal and they have to bake
it at a very high temperatures and the
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13:23.2
coal would give off off gases and
provide different chemistry’s but we
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13:27.0
would go you know I might be in the
hydrogen sulfide lab
13:27.0
13:32.9
or the the water lab or the coke oven
gas lab so we would go into different
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13:36.9
labs and during shift work you’d do
different tests at the different labs
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13:42.5
but my favorite was the water lab felt
like I was really doing something and
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13:46.9
they had quench water and they had other
waters so we would go out and test water
13:46.9
13:52.2
by the caf coke oven batteries and hey
the one thing you do when you walk by a
13:52.2
14:00.2
common battery if it’s closed it’s an
oven so it’s freezing outside your back
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14:05.7
is cold and if you’re facing the coop
call oven that coke oven battery the
14:05.7
14:10.6
front of you is hot very hot so you got
1,200 degrees on one side and negative
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14:17.9
zero negative 15 on the up you got it so
I worked for US Steel for about a year
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14:24.3
and I couldn’t handle the layoffs and
then some of the some of the Union
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14:31.7
mentality as a young professional we
would do work in a lab I’d get my work
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14:37.4
done in two three hours
and basically they I would go into my
14:37.4
14:41.2
boss and say I want more work I’m
getting my work done in from two hours
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14:46.9
to three hours any other guys say no we
don’t do it that way and I can’t I can’t
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14:52.5
handle that I mean I like to be busy
a little constantly busy so I left
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14:58.1
claritin works US Steel and I said I did
really didn’t like the layoffs so let
14:58.1
15:04.7
the layoffs as a new person in the Union
mentality you get a lot of layoffs so I
15:04.7
15:10.4
aim to start working for combustion
engineering making foundry chemicals and
15:10.4
15:15.9
I spent about a year you’re doing
foundry chemicals learning about founder
15:15.9
15:21.9
chemicals for alcohol residents phenolic
resins things like that so it was
15:21.9
15:27.1
manufacturing those kind of resins and I
said this is not where I want to be so I
15:27.1
15:31.5
end up going to work for Calgon and I
think everybody knows cowbugs one of the
15:31.5
15:36.6
original six pack and I was hired as an
in research and development now you know
15:36.6
15:40.1
my dad whoever started out with Calgon
yes did you know my dad no
15:40.1
15:46.4
I don’t okay basically I started Calgon
and basically I had various choices
15:46.4
15:49.9
which way to go you know on research
development you’re doing different
15:49.9
15:54.5
things and there’s a new person in
Calgon how you do what they told you to
15:54.5
16:00.2
do and at Calvin we would always have
three organizations and research and
16:00.2
16:04.4
development its reorganization
reorganization and you would move from
16:04.4
16:08.8
one lab and do one one chore and then
you move into somebody else’s group and
16:08.8
16:13.4
do another chore so it was a lot of
different things we would go and see a
16:13.4
16:16.2
lot of different people isn’t Aliyah do
a lot of different things you got to
16:16.2
16:21.0
remember Calgon at the time not only had
the water Freeman business it also had
16:21.0
16:25.3
the commodity business which it was
selling at the time and the activated
16:25.3
16:30.4
carbon business so you moved from side
to side and all over the place so you
16:30.4
16:35.1
get to do a little bit of everything and
learn a lot about varying products I
16:35.1
16:42.4
spent 10 years with Calvin and I really
wanted to be out in the field I was
16:42.4
16:46.6
doing some tech service work working
with the technical engineers in the
16:46.6
16:52.2
various facilities never had been in the
field so then I went and started on my
16:52.2
16:56.7
MBA they pulled me okay will pay for
your education go out and get an MBA so
16:56.7
17:03.5
I got an MBA in my worked so where my
goal was was to move further into the
17:03.5
17:07.9
water treatment market that all happened
to be my cousin also works worked for
17:07.9
17:13.6
Calvin at the time so I couldn’t
constantly move that way so I ended up
17:13.6
17:17.9
switching the activated carbon for a
while was that because of nepotism they
17:17.9
17:23.6
were worried about they had a nepotism
conflict where if you got if I could
17:23.6
17:29.9
possibly report to him which would never
have happened I don’t think because he
17:29.9
17:34.6
was in a total he was in a different
area so I moved activated carbon for a
17:34.6
17:40.3
couple years and but I was all research
and development so then when I finally
17:40.3
17:43.7
finished up my MBA and one of the stake
out Ron and moved the way I wanted to do
17:43.7
17:48.7
no no you’re into important you have
patents hold it guys what’s going on
17:48.7
17:54.0
here you tell me one thing and you go to
another and then I that’s why I decided
17:54.0
18:00.4
cow button so I started to work with a
small Association of group of guys they
18:00.4
18:06.6
had a small manufacturing plant in
Youngstown Ohio and basically I became
18:06.6
18:11.8
their technical director and blender
making sure their blends were properly
18:11.8
18:16.4
made we readjusting their formulations
and Warren going out and provide tech
18:16.4
18:22.0
service to them on the field with water
treatment so I spent about five years
18:22.0
18:25.7
with them doing water treatment one of
the people that I know very well was
18:25.7
18:30.9
Chuck Cameron so he was one he was one
of the partners I also was a partner of
18:30.9
18:37.8
that plant so I became basically
technical director knowledgeable
18:37.8
18:42.7
information and I got to meet people
like Jim heimer
18:42.7
18:48.9
and some of his some of the people that
his other partner but I got to meet
18:48.9
18:53.0
those kind of people I met other people
I met the guys from crown engineering
18:53.0
19:00.6
Jim James McDonald and other people that
are in our industry James McDonald
19:00.6
19:05.2
friend of show one of our bar biggest
fans and supporters so it was a it was
19:05.2
19:09.8
very interesting I got to meet those
people we were already coming I had
19:09.8
19:16.4
already been to IWC where most of the
most of us went at those times and I
19:16.4
19:21.5
started coming doing work with I a
double ut etc and you know I was a
19:21.5
19:25.2
technical trekker I was going out and
solving the technical issues which I
19:25.2
19:29.7
really love to do solving solving the
technical issues of different water
19:29.7
19:33.5
treatment facilities and being at
different plants and seeing different
19:33.5
19:39.1
things and Calvin I would go to big
plants aren’t going and Exxon and in
19:39.1
19:45.7
other places wherever we had work so
that was how I got ideas for different
19:45.7
19:50.2
products or different items and things
like that I mean that’s how how you
19:50.2
19:55.6
develop them so that’s what I really
love to do I mean the tech service the
19:55.6
19:59.9
consulting the helping the engineering
things like that well when you have five
19:59.9
20:05.1
partners you all sometimes don’t want to
go in the same direction right how do
20:05.1
20:10.2
you deal with that
that’s was very difficult and that’s why
20:10.2
20:16.3
I decided in 92 to leave and start my
own business and at that time I started
20:16.3
20:20.5
GLA water consultants now you gotta
remember I never sold a thing in my life
20:20.5
20:25.1
you were a technical guy I was a
technical guy I was total research and
20:25.1
20:31.1
developments total solving of problems
but I didn’t know what I owe to of how
20:31.1
20:36.4
to squat and sell cold call or anything
else so I started a business from
20:36.4
20:39.5
nothing
and that walked out just went out
20:39.5
20:45.8
started a business from nothing with no
help no anything no extra accounts not
20:45.8
20:51.2
knowing how to go in to accounts and
sell myself just go in and expound
20:51.2
20:56.8
technical on knowledge and what do you
do as we all say we got gave it away a
20:56.8
21:01.5
lot of free consulting sure and I’m
assuming that you still had the
21:01.5
21:06.8
requirement to take care of your family
live indoors and eat food so you had to
21:06.8
21:09.4
figure something out pretty quick very
quickly
21:09.4
21:14.7
I was also my kids were also playing ice
hockey so and I couldn’t take that away
21:14.7
21:20.8
from them at the time I was also
refereeing ice hockey games so my
21:20.8
21:26.8
secondary job became refereeing ice
hockey at night and being up to one two
21:26.8
21:30.5
o’clock even doin adult games till one
or two o’clock in the morning and then
21:30.5
21:34.7
getting up at five o’clock and doing
everything else so it went with allowed
21:34.7
21:41.0
a lot of sleep and without a lot of
different things so somewhere about six
21:41.0
21:45.2
months in and I was doing a lot of
different things and I was growing it
21:45.2
21:51.7
was starting to grow the business
through technical sales and a friend of
21:51.7
21:56.0
mine asked me he knew me a Calvin he
says hey would you have some time for
21:56.0
22:01.4
consulting and I said sure you know hey
I’m looking to make money any which way
22:01.4
22:07.0
I can so he brought me into Cyrus rice
so he ended up leaving Cyrus rice and I
22:07.0
22:13.7
am the purchasing Cyrus rice so GLA
water consultants that is the water
22:13.7
22:19.0
treatment company where you’re doing the
regular water treatment that us AWT
22:19.0
22:22.2
members would
is that a correct that’s that’s the
22:22.2
22:26.7
correct statement we sell chemicals we
sell technical knowledge we sell just
22:26.7
22:31.2
about everything so now take us over on
the cyrus right side what exactly do you
22:31.2
22:36.2
do over there that’s strictly providing
consulting services brain power what’s
22:36.2
22:40.5
in my head and what I see and what’s
wrong and what’s right I’m also doing
22:40.5
22:46.9
expert witness work I go into plants and
maybe I’ll write a specification for
22:46.9
22:50.8
them a water-treatment specification a
steel mills right a water treatment
22:50.8
22:55.8
specification so the companies can all
bid it and we try to put them on an
22:55.8
23:00.6
apples-to-apples basis when I do
specification writing I write
23:00.6
23:06.1
performance based specifications I don’t
tell them some consultants to tell you
23:06.1
23:09.8
what chemistry to use I won’t do that
there’s a lot of chemistry’s a lot of
23:09.8
23:13.6
ways to skin the cat I want
performance-based specifications so when
23:13.6
23:17.4
I did steel mill I said my corrosion
rates and this part of the plan is gonna
23:17.4
23:21.4
be this my corrosion rates and this is
gonna be this filing factors are here da
23:21.4
23:25.9
da da etc and make it all based on
performance in the big companies come
23:25.9
23:34.5
treat now Co GE or bets at the time
would come in and all bid it and they if
23:34.5
23:40.3
you really noticed it when when I write
bid specs how I do it is I write two
23:40.3
23:45.5
specs make sure the client understands
what the specs mean and so we have an
23:45.5
23:51.3
interview of the different potential
vendors so now they all submit their
23:51.3
23:56.2
bids well no matter what you put in the
specs and you tell them to do give you
23:56.2
24:00.9
all this kind of information the specs
can be all over the place you know one
24:00.9
24:06.2
guy bids one point to the other one bids
one point for it he had one bids one so
24:06.2
24:10.8
you know you’d say oh go with the one no
no you got to normalize them because
24:10.8
24:15.6
they cheat a little bit so what do you
mean by that they cheat they may not use
24:15.6
24:19.5
the right product dosages they say okay
maybe here I can get away with this so
24:19.5
24:24.7
they mate they move the numbers one may
be only using you you can give them all
24:24.7
24:30.6
the same water usage but they move them
up and down so you ask them specific
24:30.6
24:35.6
questions so now you normalize
you figure out okay how do I make this
24:35.6
24:39.5
apples to apples and oranges to oranges
now is that something you will do with
24:39.5
24:43.3
the client you write this back and then
you help them evaluate the people that
24:43.3
24:47.4
reply to it right you do this whole
thing this is a whole process it’s not
24:47.4
24:51.4
an easy thing to do
I mean basically so now you have you
24:51.4
24:55.1
have an Excel spreadsheet then I have
all sorts of questions I look at their
24:55.1
24:59.1
bid and say okay here’s some problems so
now we’re gonna we’re gonna bring each
24:59.1
25:02.8
one of them in and we’re gonna have an
interview first off I send them a bunch
25:02.8
25:08.7
of written questions to say okay here’s
what I see in your bid tell me explain
25:08.7
25:13.8
to me that started out it up and it
could be maybe on the products or using
25:13.8
25:18.7
like you know how much night try one
mate as I said because I don’t tell them
25:18.7
25:23.2
how much night let’s say the closed loop
one may use 800 ppm a night ride the
25:23.2
25:28.2
other ones using a thousand the other
ones using 1200 okay so you want to
25:28.2
25:32.3
normalize them what else is in your
product why are you using only 800 why
25:32.3
25:36.3
are you using 1200 why use and a
thousand so you’re trying to make them
25:36.3
25:43.2
all equal and you will see that your
numbers now become almost lay on top of
25:43.2
25:47.3
one another when you put everything on
an apples to apples and oranges to
25:47.3
25:51.9
oranges basis it’s just like when you’re
bringing to me when you’re bringing a
25:51.9
25:55.7
new water treat or in a bring in a new
company and to work with you it’s a
25:55.7
25:59.5
partnership it’s just like hiring a new
employee so you’ll have an interview
25:59.5
26:04.6
another interview of these people you
say okay who your technical people who’s
26:04.6
26:07.7
going how often are we gonna see this
technical person how often are we gonna
26:07.7
26:12.3
see I mean cuz like in a steel mill they
will be there three to four days a week
26:12.3
26:17.0
they may be there five days a week but
somebody technically is going to be
26:17.0
26:22.1
there almost every single day so these
million dollar jobs somebody’s there all
26:22.1
26:26.8
the time you’re there spending time in a
wastewater plant they might be spending
26:26.8
26:34.1
something at the casting the rolling
mill etc etc so you have to make sure
26:34.1
26:39.1
okay who’s gonna be here is it gonna be
the technician the intern or somebody
26:39.1
26:43.1
technical can help solve this problems
who’s gonna be the service person how
26:43.1
26:46.4
often we gonna see the technical person
so we
26:46.4
26:51.5
do this with the client involved and I’m
asking the questions I’m and they’ll
26:51.5
26:55.6
give me questions they want to know –
you know how often you’re going to do
26:55.6
26:59.7
your courage and coupons you know we’ve
already told them that how often but
26:59.7
27:06.7
okay and like I like to see in a spin
spec like once a quarter and on a large
27:06.7
27:11.6
account where the water treater takes a
quart of water or two quarts of water
27:11.6
27:16.3
sends it back to his lab halves lab do
analysis and then he does whatever
27:16.3
27:19.5
analysis conveying and we make
comparisons to see if everything’s
27:19.5
27:25.7
correct and proper and if there isn’t
good correlation between that you change
27:25.7
27:31.6
and we oversee so normally on these kind
of systems I tend to provide quarterly
27:31.6
27:36.9
oversight all right so to recap you’ve
helped them write the bid specification
27:36.9
27:41.9
you’ve helped them quantify everybody
that’s replied to that bid specification
27:41.9
27:48.2
and now you help them select the right
person that that you feel that they feel
27:48.2
27:52.0
will work and meet that bid
specification based on an
27:52.0
27:56.1
apples-to-apples comparison because now
you’ve normalized everything and now
27:56.1
28:00.7
you’re actually working into the
contract and you’re providing an expert
28:00.7
28:05.7
set of eyes on everything that that
company is bringing to fulfill that bid
28:05.7
28:09.5
specification and saying all right we
need to see more of this you’re doing a
28:09.5
28:13.8
great job here J is that pretty much did
I get that right yeah you’ve hit that
28:13.8
28:18.1
what it is is you’re I could be your
either your best friend or your worst
28:18.1
28:24.5
nightmare because if you’re not doing
your job that’s a problem but I don’t
28:24.5
28:29.9
really select who’s getting paid
everybody thinks I do know what it is is
28:29.9
28:35.2
because we’re doing interviews and we’ve
had a pre-interview before the bid can
28:35.2
28:40.3
you do the job do you have the resources
to do that job I mean all the big
28:40.3
28:44.0
companies have insurance but we also
have some small companies that have bid
28:44.0
28:50.1
do they have the resources we’re trying
to make sure they have the resources to
28:50.1
28:55.8
do the job so by getting them together
the company may have six or seven people
28:55.8
29:00.0
that are sitting in on this meeting so
they’re hearing and this is an inter
29:00.0
29:03.9
just like you would for a job anybody
wants a job they’re going to a have an
29:03.9
29:08.1
interview and we’re gonna put them under
pressure you say this in your bids back
29:08.1
29:12.6
at night and you put them under pressure
and what happens is the people to
29:12.6
29:18.3
understand who is gonna be their best
partner in making money for their
29:18.3
29:25.8
company so it provides a very good
documentation for the client to choose a
29:25.8
29:31.6
partner to be part of his life I’m gonna
tell you Jay that sounds amazing
29:31.6
29:36.6
companies that we work with we’ve never
encountered that we will be asked to bid
29:36.6
29:42.8
on something and nine times out of ten
if not 10 times out of 10 it always goes
29:42.8
29:49.5
to low price and I always feel like I am
wasting my time because you taught me
29:49.5
29:54.3
very well my dad taught me very well
that if you’re gonna do water treatment
29:54.3
29:58.5
you’re gonna do it right and there’s so
many other companies that are just gonna
29:58.5
30:02.7
throw a number at that and normally it’s
a lower number and it comes in so many
30:02.7
30:06.8
times lower than what I could do it for
I can’t even pay a guy to drive out
30:06.8
30:12.3
there sometimes for the numbers that I
see on bid specifications we just say
30:12.3
30:15.7
you know what we’re just not going to do
bid work when it gets messed up that’s
30:15.7
30:19.0
when they’re gonna call us and we’ll fix
the problem should I be thinking
30:19.0
30:23.9
differently no I think you’ve hit the
nail right on ahead because one of the
30:23.9
30:28.3
things is there is a local company in
Pittsburgh that asked us to do exactly
30:28.3
30:33.3
that right a bid spec we wrote a bid
spec the first time we saw somebody bid
30:33.3
30:38.5
it they came in at such a low number was
90 some buildings for school district
30:38.5
30:45.6
and they bid such a low number said they
can’t do it they can’t do it they
30:45.6
30:50.2
figured a well we got we at the low bid
they gave him the chance and they found
30:50.2
30:56.4
out they couldn’t do the job so I mean
though that happens a lot but it’s when
30:56.4
31:02.5
when you do a bid look bid or bid spec
like we do it and equalize it what
31:02.5
31:08.7
happens is all of them say lowest and
most responsible bidder it comes down to
31:08.7
31:13.8
that most responsible they have that
option to move to a bidder that
31:13.8
31:18.8
more technically responsible for what’s
going to happen because we’re dealing
31:18.8
31:23.0
with pieces of equipment and most of
these plants half a million dollars
31:23.0
31:28.0
you know ascetical new coils might be
forty thousand to two by purchase two
31:28.0
31:33.4
coils and another twenty thousand to
install you know depending on where the
31:33.4
31:37.2
coils are how about a new boiler what’s
going on you know you’re dealing with
31:37.2
31:42.6
very expensive pieces of equipment I
mean a boiler in a one of our sugar
31:42.6
31:48.0
plants that we basically they re tubing
they’re spending 1.2 million dollars to
31:48.0
31:52.5
re tube and that boilers down so right
now they’re not producing from right
31:52.5
31:57.2
they’re not producing from that nurtured
that’s the biggest thing with a lot of
31:57.2
32:01.0
the plants we deal with most of the food
plants things like that they generate
32:01.0
32:05.8
their own electricity so they got their
steam boilers or either doing steam
32:05.8
32:10.2
conversion with turbines or they’re
having gas fired turbines and making
32:10.2
32:15.0
steam as a by-product orange juice
plants do that a lot you know we’ve got
32:15.0
32:19.2
different manufacturers that do these
kind of things so it’s it’s seeing all
32:19.2
32:24.7
this and trying to help the client to
make money I mean that’s what it is in
32:24.7
32:30.6
trying to save him money too I mean my
biggest thing is for end-users getting
32:30.6
32:36.1
it the way or setting it up the way we
do we have it set up to do that provides
32:36.1
32:40.8
them a real return on their investment
because they may be paying me to do
32:40.8
32:46.2
certain things but what it is is they
end up pointing in the long haul gotcha
32:46.2
32:51.4
well Jay you’ve seen a lot more bid
specifications than most people how
32:51.4
32:55.8
often do you see a requirement for a
certified water technologist well I
32:55.8
33:00.7
start putting it in to all the bid specs
that I write people would ask me about
33:00.7
33:06.0
it and I says basically we’re trying to
find qualified people and I put it in a
33:06.0
33:09.9
lot of bid specifications to get people
and I’ve seen it more and more people
33:09.9
33:14.7
copy my bid specs and put it in some
somebody else’s so it has been copied
33:14.7
33:18.8
quite a bit so we’re starting to see it
more and more in specifications well I’m
33:18.8
33:21.9
going to play devil’s advocate here so
there’s a listener there driving down
33:21.9
33:25.7
the road right now they don’t see any
need to get their certified water
33:25.7
33:28.8
technologist designation
and they’re thinking all were they’re
33:28.8
33:32.9
just trying to close the bid so only
their friends are people they know or
33:32.9
33:36.3
they can bid on it what do you say to
that well first off if I write a bid
33:36.3
33:41.3
spec I will not bid it I’m sorry I’m
gonna do it no I will not let GLA do it
33:41.3
33:47.8
either I think that’s not ethical I
stand by my ethics and the certified
33:47.8
33:54.0
Water Technologies of having good ethics
that’s really how I want to be and the
33:54.0
34:00.0
day I stopped doing that it’s another
problem the biggest thing is why I put
34:00.0
34:04.7
certified water technologists in and
then because I was a part of helping
34:04.7
34:09.0
develop a test and things like that
Angela will correct you it’s an
34:09.0
34:14.7
examining examination right a knowledge
examination because really here training
34:14.7
34:19.4
we do not teach to the exam it’s your
general knowledge that’s what it’s
34:19.4
34:24.6
supposed to be but we’ve worked with the
insurance companies like Mike I am hey
34:24.6
34:28.3
if you have a certified water
technologist it reduces your your your
34:28.3
34:34.0
cost your premiums so the importance of
become specifically right it is
34:34.0
34:39.2
significant so if you think about it the
importance of becoming a CWT is one to
34:39.2
34:44.3
prove to yourself that you could pass
that test and that you’re equal to the
34:44.3
34:47.7
other
CW T’s now that’s what it means you have
34:47.7
34:52.1
to have some self confidence and
provides you that get up and go hey I’ve
34:52.1
34:57.3
achieved something I mean we all want to
achieve something in life so it brings
34:57.3
35:03.9
you that sense of achievement so now you
feel a little bit more confident I don’t
35:03.9
35:09.5
say every CWT does it 100% right you
know not the way I would sometimes like
35:09.5
35:13.4
to see it but there’s no standards I
mean that’s the other thing we do as
35:13.4
35:18.4
part of the AWT we write we’re trying to
start to write standards so it’s getting
35:18.4
35:21.8
standards and growing on those kind of
things those standards are very
35:21.8
35:26.5
important for some of the things that I
do with expert witness work and things
35:26.5
35:30.4
like that they’re always asking is there
a standard out there is there a code or
35:30.4
35:39.6
whatever else there are none the ASHRAE
188 2015 in all 2018 is a standard that
35:39.6
35:42.4
is a truce
well let’s talk about that because
35:42.4
35:47.3
people get confused about is this a
guideline is this a standard is this a
35:47.3
35:52.6
recommendation what are the differences
with all of those well legally if it’s
35:52.6
35:58.7
not a standard it’s not required we may
think it’s good but that doesn’t mean
35:58.7
36:04.4
just because you think it’s good that’s
the common practice that’s what you have
36:04.4
36:10.7
to look at so when you look at standards
you’re that’s a requirement when you bid
36:10.7
36:15.5
a bid spec for a new building or
whatever else it tells you you must
36:15.5
36:20.7
clean the system you have to do it if
there it’s not in the bid spec you don’t
36:20.7
36:26.1
have to do it even though you think it’s
right so you may bid it and put that in
36:26.1
36:30.4
there but now that drives your number up
for that bid right and you’re talking
36:30.4
36:34.8
about new construction where you have to
clean the internal pipe right now as
36:34.8
36:41.3
part of NACE we’re writing that standard
we’re writing a pre cleaning standard so
36:41.3
36:45.6
that will become a standard an ace has a
lot of standards and ASHRAE has
36:45.6
36:53.1
standards and CPI is writing standards
we’re doing this to drive the industry
36:53.1
36:59.4
to try to help protect our members this
is what you got to do the thing is if
36:59.4
37:03.8
it’s in that bid spec and you don’t do
it then what happens is now you’re in
37:03.8
37:10.4
violation so if there’s a problem the
same thing is if you look at a piece of
37:10.4
37:15.1
equipment that might have water quality
guidelines for a eat bump or for a
37:15.1
37:19.1
boiler or whatever else if you’re
outside those guidelines you’re taking
37:19.1
37:23.5
full liability if there’s a failure so I
mean those are the things you have to
37:23.5
37:29.8
look at what happens now you had
mentioned AWT and standards I know
37:29.8
37:35.0
you’re very involved with that one why
don’t we have water treatment standards
37:35.0
37:39.5
and what are you doing to help with that
and let me even add one more to that do
37:39.5
37:45.8
we need them do you need standards well
you can say no but we all do it
37:45.8
37:51.4
differently so what happens when
something fails or something breaks if
37:51.4
37:56.4
there’s no standards
who cares so now it’s up to the jurors
37:56.4
38:01.5
to figure out who they want to blame if
we have standards guess what and if
38:01.5
38:05.5
you’re living up to the standards and
makes it easy hey hey I’m doing
38:05.5
38:10.3
everything per standard standard
protocols it gives you some liability
38:10.3
38:14.7
protection that’s the biggest thing hey
I’m doing everything I can
38:14.7
38:18.8
it failed it wasn’t you know it wasn’t
my fault
38:18.8
38:25.9
hey the the Legionella hey I’m following
the standard we talk about negligence
38:25.9
38:30.6
you want to take negligence off the
table because negligence is the
38:30.6
38:37.3
functionality of the lawsuits that
really drives the dollar value so if we
38:37.3
38:42.0
can take negligence off the table we’re
doing everything we can we’re doing it
38:42.0
38:47.4
per industry standards but if there’s no
industry standards guess what we can say
38:47.4
38:51.3
you’re negligent
it’s an opinion so how would you define
38:51.3
38:54.9
negligence when it comes to water
treatment because there’s no standards
38:54.9
38:59.0
how do I know and I see a lot of
people’s opinions come to a bit lot of
38:59.0
39:02.8
different conclusions but because
there’s no standards their opinion is
39:02.8
39:07.1
just like everything else and I’ll we
say hey an opinion is everybody has one
39:07.1
39:13.1
it doesn’t mean anything but if there’s
a rule or a law or a standard it puts
39:13.1
39:18.4
the guides right down I so badly want to
start asking you about expert witness
39:18.4
39:22.2
and how a jury would make their decision
but I’m going not to do that right now
39:22.2
39:27.6
because I want to stay with the standard
conversation so you are a strong
39:27.6
39:33.5
proponent that we need a basic standard
that allows us to as you say take
39:33.5
39:38.4
negligence off the table now we’re on a
more level playing field and a lot of
39:38.4
39:41.7
people might say well if I have this
standard you know I’m not going to be
39:41.7
39:44.3
able to exceed this standard and that’s
not true is it
39:44.3
39:48.2
sure you can exceed the standard time if
you’re exceeding the standard might be
39:48.2
39:53.2
even better but what it does is here’s a
minimum standard so it’s the same thing
39:53.2
39:58.0
as when I write my bid specs I say you
will do this kind of testing the one of
39:58.0
40:02.0
the biggest problems are that I see in
our industry is there’s a lot of people
40:02.0
40:05.7
going out there and doing
just the conductivity or just the
40:05.7
40:12.3
inhibitor or the PhD si or whatever else
so they’re not doing enough testing and
40:12.3
40:15.8
those are the people that are getting
the business on the low bids because
40:15.8
40:19.1
people like you and I are actually
putting it in that we’re going to do it
40:19.1
40:22.2
right and we’re too high and they’re not
gonna go with that’s right so what it
40:22.2
40:28.1
does is raise all boats we want to try
to make everything equal and it has said
40:28.1
40:33.2
if by also making things equal it
protects our members and the other
40:33.2
40:36.3
people in the water treatment industry
so it drives the people that aren’t
40:36.3
40:40.3
doing it right or don’t want to do it
right they just want to make come in and
40:40.3
40:45.5
make their fast buck it’s the same as as
doctors and lawyers and things like that
40:45.5
40:52.6
they write standards for their members
they write standards to drive the quacks
40:52.6
40:57.8
away hopefully they drive them away and
get them out of the thing this is a very
40:57.8
41:03.5
professional business we are water
doctors you we have to know biology
41:03.5
41:09.6
chemistry metallurgy mechanical
engineering Chemical Engineering
41:09.6
41:15.2
regulatory we’re doing so many darn
things we are doctors we are water
41:15.2
41:21.1
doctors we’re solving our customers
problems we’ve solve our customers
41:21.1
41:29.0
problems so definitely they are sick
we’re helping them through and the thing
41:29.0
41:37.1
is we have water doctors we have interns
and we have physicians assistants so we
41:37.1
41:44.0
have the same thing now as a patient do
you just want to go see the intern or do
41:44.0
41:46.8
you won’t want to go see a quack or do
you want to see the doctor you want to
41:46.8
41:52.9
see the physicians physician’s assistant
and say okay I pay for this you have
41:52.9
41:59.5
that choice but if you die just seeing a
quack he’s out of business tomorrow who
41:59.5
42:05.5
cares that’s an interesting analogy I
think it puts it in perspective so right
42:05.5
42:10.9
now we do not have any water treatment
standards what’s being done to correct
42:10.9
42:15.8
that the AWT through its standards Task
Forces were actually we’re trying to
42:15.8
42:20.8
write standards
dsdm we’re also looking at nasa’s
42:20.8
42:25.6
writing standards there are certain
standards for how you do testing form
42:25.6
42:29.5
ASTM talked a little bit about ASTM
because there are a lot of members in
42:29.5
42:34.0
the nation that may not know about that
ASTM is a American Society for testing
42:34.0
42:40.2
materials and they have multiple
multiple groups indoor air quality steel
42:40.2
42:44.6
everything so they cover a lot of
different bases and there’s a lot of
42:44.6
42:49.8
different groups but in water that if
you look most of our like standard
42:49.8
42:56.4
methods or ASTM they have developed the
test procedures they’re also to develop
42:56.4
43:02.5
online procedures to make sure all the
equipment it meets the same criteria so
43:02.5
43:06.3
when you’re doing your alkalinity z’
you’re doing your chlorides you do it
43:06.3
43:13.5
the proper way that’s that’s a written
test method procedure and standard so it
43:13.5
43:18.7
tells you what chemistry’s to use it
keeps everything uniform so when you’re
43:18.7
43:21.8
doing alkalinity
well there’s a lot of ways to report
43:21.8
43:26.5
alkalinity he isn’t there we all report
it as calcium carbonate but you can
43:26.5
43:32.5
report it as other things so it gives
you some type of qualification to
43:32.5
43:36.7
compare numbers
I mean you showed yesterday in your math
43:36.7
43:42.8
converting chlorides to sodium chloride
things like that so it’s doing things
43:42.8
43:47.3
and trying to make some give provides
some consistency between your numbers
43:47.3
43:54.4
the ASTM right standards for producing
metal is it erw piping or is it whatever
43:54.4
43:59.0
else how do you form it do you post
heat-treated do you not post heat treat
43:59.0
44:02.9
it and they call give it different
standards how thick is that metal so
44:02.9
44:06.7
what happens is if you don’t have
standards guess what you can make
44:06.7
44:11.2
whatever thickness you want if it fails
tomorrow who cares so I mean that’s what
44:11.2
44:16.6
happens but the people out there or the
client well I bought that piece of pipe
44:16.6
44:21.6
well what piece of pipe did you buy I
don’t know was a schedule 5 schedule 10
44:21.6
44:27.7
schedule 40 schedule 80 was it erw
piping how was it formed was opposed he
44:27.7
44:33.2
treated not post he treated
so when we go into a heat pump what’s
44:33.2
44:37.6
the heat pump I mean with your treatment
and everything else you’ve got different
44:37.6
44:42.7
pieces of equipment some heat pumps up
enhanced tubes some don’t I mean most of
44:42.7
44:47.9
our chillers today in HVAC all have
enhanced tubes but if I have one through
44:47.9
44:52.5
water I may not have enhanced tubes okay
what are some of the things that you’re
44:52.5
44:56.1
actually doing with writing these
standards and can you tell us some of
44:56.1
45:00.2
the things that you’re suggesting that
going the standards well for the NACE
45:00.2
45:05.0
standard for the cleaning we’re going
through the cleaning process of what you
45:05.0
45:10.3
should do with new and even used
equipment or what you should do when
45:10.3
45:15.8
you’re taking a refurbishing or remaking
or even when you take over some we’re
45:15.8
45:20.4
writing some cleaning procedures and
what the importance of cleaning is so
45:20.4
45:26.2
we’re looking at all that to write a
standard the other thing is monitoring
45:26.2
45:30.6
standards we’re looking at monitoring
standards for cooling water what testing
45:30.6
45:33.9
should you do
corrosion besides just corrosion coupons
45:33.9
45:39.1
I mean some people don’t do corrosion
coupons at all what kind of biology
45:39.1
45:45.8
testing um microbiological testing you
know what’s even for taking of
45:45.8
45:50.7
Legionella samples what’s the standard
for taking a Legionella sample properly
45:50.7
45:56.4
what’s really representative of taking
that do you take a first draw sample do
45:56.4
46:00.4
you take a flush sample where do you
take your samples do you take the
46:00.4
46:05.5
aerator off do you not take the aerator
off so you’re even looking at those kind
46:05.5
46:11.5
of things to say let’s write a standard
so everybody’s doing it the same I mean
46:11.5
46:17.1
I guarantee you we can take Legionella
samples all day I guarantee I can make
46:17.1
46:22.9
samples pass and fail just by the way I
take the sentence sample so what good is
46:22.9
46:28.3
the data if you can do that is it really
representative that’s the question you
46:28.3
46:33.2
have to ask yourself so if I’m taking a
first raw sample from my hot water
46:33.2
46:38.1
heater plus a flush sample why do you
take them the same thing is do I take a
46:38.1
46:42.4
first draw out of my tap or do I let it
get up to 120 degrees and then take my
46:42.4
46:44.8
sample
so you’re doing this for a hospital
46:44.8
46:50.0
we’re being required to do all this
Legionella testing based on CMS
46:50.0
46:53.0
requirements how do you why do you want
to do it do you want to do it right or
46:53.0
46:57.7
you want to do it wrong do you want it
to fail or you want it to pass what’s
46:57.7
47:00.9
your goal here but if you have a
standard and tell everybody to do it
47:00.9
47:05.4
exactly the same way the testing is all
done they try to do it the same way I
47:05.4
47:10.8
mean that’s how they become CDC elite
labs and things like that so isn’t the
47:10.8
47:16.0
sampling the same thing let me ask you
Jay there’s a new water treat are out
47:16.0
47:19.4
there maybe there’s a new water
treatment company out there and they
47:19.4
47:24.4
want to make sure they’re doing at least
the minimum if it were up to you what
47:24.4
47:30.0
would every water treatment company do
as a minimum for water treatment
47:30.0
47:35.1
well first off your makeup water’s
constantly changing so if you’re not
47:35.1
47:39.9
monitoring your makeup water every time
in you have a problem here Houston
47:39.9
47:45.0
because whatever you’re putting in goes
in the cooling tower it goes into the
47:45.0
47:52.3
boiler we’re working on a facility right
now had a condensate polisher they
47:52.3
47:57.7
because the facility basically had a
leak in one of their domestic hot water
47:57.7
48:02.1
returns from their steam so the
condensate had a lot of hardness in it
48:02.1
48:07.7
conductivity side they couldn’t locate
which hot water domestic hot water tank
48:07.7
48:12.1
was leaking but they knew one of them
was fine so they put a condensate
48:12.1
48:17.1
polisher which is a water softener what
tests you do on a water softener just
48:17.1
48:22.3
feed water just hardness oh it’s good is
that what we say no you’re supposed to
48:22.3
48:25.6
be a problem solver do you check
conductivity do you see if there’s
48:25.6
48:30.9
chlorides in there well what happened is
on this from the condensate polisher the
48:30.9
48:35.2
condensate polisher was leaching
chlorides out it destroyed the aerator
48:35.2
48:40.5
now we’re talking 500 thousand dollars
to replace the aerator it also destroyed
48:40.5
48:45.2
the vent condenser there’s big pieces of
equipment we’re dealing with so it
48:45.2
48:50.8
depends on the pieces of equipment that
you’re dealing with and the cost factors
48:50.8
48:56.3
so you’re generating your test
procedures should all be based
48:56.3
49:01.6
on the cost factors for the client and
it could be a very small cooling tower
49:01.6
49:06.1
but but it might be on top of a 50-story
building how do you get a cooling tower
49:06.1
49:10.9
something two ways on top of a 50-story
building it’s a helicopter
49:10.9
49:15.4
that’s not cheap that’s not cheap
there’s so many other things to go into
49:15.4
49:20.0
that so you definitely have to test the
makeup water and you should be doing
49:20.0
49:24.4
enough tests to provide you information
about that makeup water and my new
49:24.4
49:29.3
changes could be the phosphate coming in
could be higher or lower the aluminum
49:29.3
49:33.9
you know we get some aluminum in from
our things now you’re not may not do
49:33.9
49:37.7
that aluminum number all the time but
you might want to do the aluminum number
49:37.7
49:42.5
every six months you might miss
something or if you have problems we
49:42.5
49:47.1
know from Bruce’s training than aluminum
getting into a water softeners because
49:47.1
49:51.5
it’s a plus 3 ion stays on the resin
beads think about resin beads can other
49:51.5
49:56.4
do other things also so you have to look
at those kinds of things and say how can
49:56.4
50:01.4
those factors impact me and some of
that’s just you can tell by your
50:01.4
50:05.4
conductivity is it really changing but
if you’re doing your PNM alkyl loonie
50:05.4
50:09.6
waters change all the time
you have drought conditions you have
50:09.6
50:14.2
rainy conditions I mean right now in the
city of Pittsburgh and around the
50:14.2
50:18.9
surrounding areas our conductivity in
our office is normally as around 1,100
50:18.9
50:25.2
right now it’s around 600 so building
around us hey I used to be 1,100 now I’m
50:25.2
50:32.3
600 with an alkalinity of of 300 verses
down to 150 do you change your treatment
50:32.3
50:35.9
program for that sure you do so if
you’re not testing your city water and
50:35.9
50:41.1
doing enough analysis how do you know so
it depends on after that are you dealing
50:41.1
50:44.7
with cooling towers are you doing your
corrosion coupons are you doing
50:44.7
50:49.3
biologicals we’re supposed to protect
protecting systems from corrosion
50:49.3
50:54.6
fouling microbiological growth and scale
are you doing your balances are you
50:54.6
51:00.5
doing iron and coppers why am i doing
coppers oh because heat exchangers made
51:00.5
51:06.5
copper you know you just you you want to
build trends the more data you have the
51:06.5
51:11.1
easier it is to build trends that’s
we have these services and other things
51:11.1
51:17.6
like that to generate information so we
as water doctors you wouldn’t go to a
51:17.6
51:23.3
physician and say well don’t do any
tests on me I could be dying well how
51:23.3
51:26.0
you gonna know if you don’t do any
testing and you’re only doing the
51:26.0
51:29.3
inhibitor in the conductivity and there
everything’s good
51:29.3
51:34.8
that is the comment that I hate to see
on reports matter of fact I saw a report
51:34.8
51:39.5
just last week from a company that I
will not mention and there was
51:39.5
51:45.7
conductivity on there and pts a just on
the cooling tower water and the comet
51:45.7
51:51.3
set everything looks not just good J but
great everything looks great
51:51.3
51:55.6
they ran two parameters and wrote that
comment down and they were on to the
51:55.6
52:00.1
next job now you understand why I write
bit specifications and say this is the
52:00.1
52:04.3
way you should be doing it and we’re the
company I can bid we’re very low
52:04.3
52:07.7
I’d only having my guy there for a half
hour and spending most of the time
52:07.7
52:13.2
buying cookies or killing them giving
donuts that’s that’s the whole issue
52:13.2
52:18.7
that’s what you you’re not providing a
good service do you want to be the best
52:18.7
52:22.7
doctor you can be I always like to tell
people that how do you know you know
52:22.7
52:28.4
what what do you know from the testing
that you’re doing that actually
52:28.4
52:32.6
validates that you’re doing what you’re
supposed to be doing and I think there’s
52:32.6
52:38.2
so many people out there that don’t ask
that magic question why why do I run
52:38.2
52:42.1
this test why wouldn’t I run this test
what am I going to do with that test
52:42.1
52:47.7
when people start asking that question
then it becomes very apparent to why
52:47.7
52:51.4
they need to run other testing because
it’s going to lay down the path of what
52:51.4
52:57.8
they need to do what’s going on with the
system and with that you know maybe we
52:57.8
53:03.2
don’t need a standard people ask that
question more but for some reason we’ve
53:03.2
53:07.0
got a lot of service reports with two
parameters on them and everything looks
53:07.0
53:12.1
good so why not have a standard so we
all bring each other up to a level
53:12.1
53:16.3
playing field and the customer gets
customers don’t understand water
53:16.3
53:20.7
treatment don’t tell us that that you do
there’s so many of us that don’t explain
53:20.7
53:24.2
it to them
and I never understood why that is is
53:24.2
53:28.6
that because we don’t want that I’m
saying we collectively I know you and I
53:28.6
53:33.0
do a really good job of explaining what
it is that we do but generally water
53:33.0
53:37.0
treaters don’t I want to keep my
customer in the dark a little bit so
53:37.0
53:41.0
maybe they don’t hold me accountable
maybe they don’t ask me to do other
53:41.0
53:45.4
tests I don’t know why that is why do
you think that is J well I think it’s
53:45.4
53:49.1
probably what you said they you’re
hoping they don’t hold you accountable
53:49.1
53:53.7
but the problem is when we walk in if
you look at feet when I do the expert
53:53.7
53:58.5
witness the lawyers take us to be the
experts they take the client to be the
53:58.5
54:03.0
dummy we are the experts when we walk in
there you know about water don’t you yes
54:03.0
54:07.5
that’s the answer you’re gonna give then
you could say it’s not it’s not I don’t
54:07.5
54:10.8
worry about that oh I don’t worry about
that don’t you think you should worry
54:10.8
54:14.7
about it you know do you do you think
you should worry about the equipment if
54:14.7
54:19.6
the equipment specification says no more
than 17 milligrams per liter of
54:19.6
54:25.0
suspended solids don’t you think you
should be monitoring that and it’s in a
54:25.0
54:28.6
heat pump system I mean the water
furnace heat pumps in me Trane heat
54:28.6
54:33.5
pumps say 17 milligrams per liter of
total suspended solids do you think you
54:33.5
54:37.2
should be monitoring it should you think
you should be putting filtration on that
54:37.2
54:41.0
system because you might not be able to
detain that I mean myself I like to do
54:41.0
54:46.1
balances to compare my balances my
calcium and chloride balance versus
54:46.1
54:50.0
conductivity balance but sometimes they
can’t use chloride because it’s
54:50.0
54:54.4
somebody’s feeding bleach can’t use
chloride or from reading one of the
54:54.4
54:59.9
other oxidizing bio sites or if I’m
there to the ocean if my cooling towers
54:59.9
55:04.0
near the ocean that’s gonna pull off
drift from the ocean itself which has
55:04.0
55:08.0
high chlorides so now I might have to
run silica or I might have to run other
55:08.0
55:13.5
balances so you have to look at that
also silica may not work I hate dust
55:13.5
55:18.9
storm you have to think and you have to
run multiple balances and see where the
55:18.9
55:22.7
number is you can’t just use
conductivity because guess what what
55:22.7
55:26.1
also drives conductivity
oh that drift bringing in silica that
55:26.1
55:29.0
drives it in chlorides
oh that also drives up the conductivity
55:29.0
55:32.6
so you can’t just use use conductivity
you have to use a lot of different
55:32.6
55:35.7
things
so the more bullets you have in your
55:35.7
55:41.0
belt or the more testing you do it
provides you information to provide
55:41.0
55:46.3
solutions to your client and the whole
biggest thing of this whole industry is
55:46.3
55:52.2
we are water doctors as I said isn’t it
great when you predict what’s going to
55:52.2
55:55.6
happen before it happens doesn’t the
client look at you a little bit
55:55.6
55:59.8
differently do you’ve told them what was
gonna happen it would have happened okay
55:59.8
56:03.8
you got this boiler feedwater tank
that’s running at 50 degrees you’re
56:03.8
56:07.7
gonna pit up all this metal if you keep
doing that and then they open it up and
56:07.7
56:11.8
that happen hey you’re a magician no
it’s not that’s just how things work and
56:11.8
56:16.9
it’s testing you’ve done enough testing
to predict what’s going to happen he may
56:16.9
56:21.3
decide not to do what you want him to do
do what you need to do that you need to
56:21.3
56:25.5
raise the water temperature of your feed
water tank and hey you know that’s gonna
56:25.5
56:30.7
cost me X amount of dollars to do he
makes that thing but what happens is you
56:30.7
56:35.6
just look like a genius and J if there
is one thing that you have drilled into
56:35.6
56:40.7
me for the last 20 years it’s when you
have that conversation with that client
56:40.7
56:46.7
write it down if it didn’t get written
down you always told me it did not
56:46.7
56:53.2
happen I set that to a lawyer the other
days is can you tell me something and I
56:53.2
56:58.3
said wow if it wasn’t written down it
wasn’t done but the thing is that’s that
56:58.3
57:04.3
sometimes is is to me one of your base
protecting statements are you you know
57:04.3
57:11.4
when I see on a water treatment report
feed water temperatures or other things
57:11.4
57:16.3
it provides more information to solve
problems and when those kind of it that
57:16.3
57:23.7
kind of information is on data it makes
it so easy to solve problems and provide
57:23.7
57:27.8
understanding of what’s occurring why
things are corroding why things are
57:27.8
57:33.8
happening and that’s why doing so much
testing is so very important I mean yes
57:33.8
57:38.2
can you over test I’m sure you can I
mean we don’t want our doctors over
57:38.2
57:42.5
testing but why do that why do they test
why do our doctors send us for more
57:42.5
57:47.2
tests and maybe what they should for
liability because of you just get sick
57:47.2
57:50.0
and
your family is going to sue that doctor
57:50.0
57:55.6
what do you think what are we are we any
different we’re gonna get sued if we’re
57:55.6
57:59.4
not if we’re doing enough testing then
we can predict what happens and we can
57:59.4
58:05.0
stop what’s gonna happen we can probably
help solve that patient Jay let me ask
58:05.0
58:10.4
when can the Scaling UP! nation
anticipate to see these standards coming
58:10.4
58:15.9
out that you’re talking about give me
more time in a day give me more time in
58:15.9
58:20.0
a day and you know it’s it’s true you
know we’re trying to write the standards
58:20.0
58:25.9
based on getting consensus so to be
clear this just isn’t you sitting in a
58:25.9
58:29.9
room writing standards you’re working
with a whole bunch of people over a
58:29.9
58:35.0
whole sampling of the different water
treatment areas cloud it’s just not just
58:35.0
58:39.1
water treatment people with other people
in other industries what they want to
58:39.1
58:47.3
see in ASTM D 1903 we have multiple
people sitting on that committee and we
58:47.3
58:51.4
look at different things to say okay how
we’re going to write this and that they
58:51.4
58:59.4
provide input and looking at peer review
how long did it take 188 to be developed
58:59.4
59:05.8
years years so it just doesn’t happen
overnight so it’s people who you know
59:05.8
59:10.5
getting people involved it’s like
anything else even in the AWT getting
59:10.5
59:16.2
volunteers to do it and then remember
volunteering you you’re not getting paid
59:16.2
59:20.9
to do it well Jay I’ve got so many
questions to ask you I’m gonna ask that
59:20.9
59:26.8
you come back next week and we pick up –
what I’ve been dying to ask you about
59:26.8
59:31.2
where we take all the information that
we’ve been talking about this week you
59:31.2
59:37.1
reviewing customer service reports and
finding out was somebody negligent and
59:37.1
59:43.7
now you’re acting as an expert in that
area and you’re either for or against
59:43.7
59:50.3
somebody and you’re talking to a jury
because this is now gone to court so if
59:50.3
59:53.3
you don’t mind I’d love to have you back
next week and talk about that that
59:53.3
59:57.3
sounds good all right Jay thank you so
much for coming on and we will see you
59:57.3
59:59.7
next week
okay trace
59:59.7
1:00:06.6
nation I told you Jay Farmerie is just a
wealth of information so much so we
1:00:06.6
1:00:12.6
couldn’t finish today’s episode we’re
gonna go ahead and stack it into next
1:00:12.6
1:00:19.8
week so when we come back we’re going to
talk about what it’s like for J to be an
1:00:19.8
1:00:25.8
expert witness with water treatment now
today’s episode I hope you’re thinking
1:00:25.8
1:00:31.2
if we had a standard out there that
would not only make my job easier
1:00:31.2
1:00:37.9
because I knew what I was working to it
allows us to better educate our customer
1:00:37.9
1:00:43.8
in what they should expect in water
treatment now J doesn’t get paid a cent
1:00:43.8
1:00:48.6
for all of the work that he does on
those committees and neither does
1:00:48.6
1:00:54.0
anybody else who works on those
committees they see a need for something
1:00:54.0
1:00:59.8
and then they give their time to benefit
the industry to make the entire industry
1:00:59.8
1:01:05.5
better so for all those out there that
are working on these committees thank
1:01:05.5
1:01:10.0
you for doing that because as we all
know a rising tide f initely
1:01:10.0
1:01:15.0
raises all boats and we appreciate your
work for that well next week folks we’re
1:01:15.0
1:01:20.1
gonna come back with J farmer E and
we’re gonna learn about what we should
1:01:20.1
1:01:24.1
be doing today of course there’s no
court that we’re talking about at all
1:01:24.1
1:01:28.1
there’s no issues with customers
nobody’s complained about anything and
1:01:28.1
1:01:34.0
we’ve definitely don’t have a lawsuit
against our companies but how would we
1:01:34.0
1:01:40.3
work differently today if we were able
to take a glimpse out of what somebody
1:01:40.3
1:01:47.2
like J does in the court room and now we
can get things in order so maybe they’ll
1:01:47.2
1:01:50.9
never get that far
folks I can’t wait to come at you next
1:01:50.9
1:01:57.2
week on Scaling UP! h2o