The following transcript is provided by YouTube. Mistakes are present. To hear the podcast episode, click HERE.
[Music]
SC up Nation one of my favorite things about the rising tide Mastermind is a
session that we do called a full cup and a full cup is where we bring a tip or a
trick to each other that can really help improve our regular dayto day and a few
months back Eric Russo of The Mastermind and has been on the podcast several
times he brought to us the rocket book folks the rocket book is amazing the
rocket book allows you to take notes just like you would on any other notebook but it has a scanning feature
that turns what you write into searchable text it makes your notes able
for you to find this was a game Cher for me and I know it can be a game changer
for you we have an affiliate deal worked out with the rocketbook folks so you can go to scaling up h2o.com
rocket book and you can receive 15% off your first order of $20 or
more welcome to the scaling up H2O podcast the podcast where we scale up on knowledge so we don’t scale up our
systems I’m Trace Blackmore I get to host this really awesome podcast thank you for listening listening and of
course as a listener you know that we call you the scaling up nation and so
many people out there in the scaling up Nation I want to thank you for listening each and every week but not only
listening but also participating folks we are on
368 that’s the number of this episode and we’re going to hit episode 400 this
year and I want to make sure that we have it at least 400 more in store for
you and the only way that that is going to happen is when you let me know what you want me to talk about when you let
me know who you want me to interview when you have a question that you want me to answer so if you have any or all
of those please get that information to us as quickly as you can by going to
scaling up h2o.com going over to our show ideas page and letting us know
whatever that information is that you have and we will be sure to put that in
our future list I love the show Dirty Jobs they actually brought it back last
year I’m hoping it comes back for another season this year Mike Row has
one of those amazing voices and he is uh just a a very charismatic host and I got
the idea for asking the audience what we need to be doing from him and he said he
did it for fun on the very first few episodes but quick L ran out of ideas
now I’m going to be honest with you we have been very fortunate we have never run out of ideas but I do not want to
pull too hardly on that thread I want to make sure we always have plenty of
things to talk about so I am going to activate the row like I do on most
podcasts and I am going to ask you for anything you can let us know about
interviews guests or questions go ahead and go to scaling up h2o.com go over to
our show ideas page Nation something that I get so much feedback on whenever
I go to a trade show or conference is how much people enjoy going to the
onstop shop of the scaling up h2o.com events page because they know anything
to do with our industry is going to be listed in that events page so Nation
here are a events that you want to make sure you get on your calendar the first
item is the hang on July 11th at 6:00 p.m. eastern time we are going to be
conducting a hang and a hang is a networking event for you the scaling up
nation and this is one of my favorite things to do because listeners of the podcast they dial in to zoom is that
what you do to zoom do you dial in do you type in do you hit enter and you get in everybody knows how to get into Zoom
I’m not sure what the verb is to use for that but we have a zoom link that you
will register for and we will start promptly at 6:00 pm. we’ll talk a little
bit about what’s going on in the industry and then I’m going to get you into breakout rooms and this is where
the fun starts because you’re going to be able to network with people within the industry I normally give you a few
questions that you can talk about amongst the group and you are going to walk away from that was somebody knew
that you did not know before and here’s the cool thing here’s the magic thing because I’ve seen it happen each and
every hang you will meet somebody that maybe can help you out right now with a
problem that you are having or maybe you don’t have a problem right now and then 10 months down the road you have an
issue and you think I remember that person that I met on a hang and I’ve got
their contact information and they can solve that problem for you nation that is the magic of the Hang we also have a
lot of fun in the process so you can register for the hang on July 11th you
can register Now by going to scaling up h2o.com hang and I look forward to seeing you
there the American Waterworks Association 2024 annual conference and
Expo known as ace24 is taking place June 10th through
13th in anaha time California and we’ll have all the information that you need
to know about the a show by going to scaling up h2o.com and navigating over
to our events page while you’re there you can also check out the 2024 utility
leadership conference and 54th annual meeting hosted by the National
Association of Clean Water agencies that’s taking place July 23rd through 26
in Buffalo New York Nation if we know about it it’s on that events page and
then you can know about it and then you can go and you can increase your
knowledge about whatever it is that you are trying to learn more about but not only increase your knowledge you’re
going to increase your network and I can’t tell you how many times I have reached out to people that I have met at
shows just like this to help me with issues and questions that I have had
Nation it’s all about who you know in this industry because you will know somebody that will be able to answer
that question that you have Nation you might remember Barry Higgins back on
episode 353 and 354 Barry is our friend from Ireland that came and talked about
boilers and I want to thank Ireland Ireland has rated the scaling up H2O
podcast in the top 100 of all podcasts downloaded in Ireland on Apple but it’s
just not 100 we’re actually ranked number 66 out of all podcast nation that
is an amazing statistic so I love Ireland I was over there a couple of years ago we got to tour the most
beautiful countryside and so Ireland thank you for being part of the scaling up Nation
thank you for making us the 66th most downloaded podcast in Ireland
and it is my I hope that you continue to listen to scaling up H2O and share it
with as many friends as possible well Nation speaking of friends you’re getting ready to hear from one of mine
here is the interview my lab partner today is
returning guest Tim Fulton Tim welcome back to the scaling up H2O podcast hey
tra it’s great to be back thank you for having me Tim we were trying to count the times and I did a hor job of doing
that before you came on I know you’ve been on at least twice because you were on episode 22 one of our original
episodes and then most recently episode 280 where we talked about Talent it’s at
least what another two times on top of that it may be and and I feel fortunate
every time I’m asked to come back Tim can you tell us what you’ve been up to since we’ve seen you last on episode 280
sure so I been doing a lot of speaking you know I was a vistage chair for 16
years and just before Co it’s funny how everything is before and after covid
that’s how we tell time now right before covid I I retired I transitioned my groups because it it was just it was
ready time for a new season you know of my life and began doing a lot of uh
speaking to vistage groups which I continue to do now this week I was in uh
Los Angeles uh last week was where was I last week I think I was in Cleveland
last week so going to different cities speaking to different groups different vistage groups which which I very much
enjoy I also like yourself I’ve got a I’ve got my own Mastermind group uh that
I I facilitate here in Atlanta I also have I got lured back to vistage and
I’ve got two vistage groups that I co-chair what’s called an advancing leader group a merging leader group and
then I’ve got about a dozen coach in clients that I work with uh each month I
meet with and and help in different variety of different ways so uh Trace
it’s nice I’ve got kind of a a convergence of different things that I’m doing now it’s seems to be a healthy mix
I’m probably working more than what I had expected and so slowly I’m I’m
trying to do a little bit less but probably most importantly I continue to really enjoy what I’m doing and you
recently received an award from vistage I did for the second consecutive year I
was recognized as a top speaker they’ve got several hundred speakers that that
go out and speak to the vistage groups and somehow I found myself in the in the top tier of those speakers and was named
a top speaker I’m very thankful for that well Nation I love having Tim on the
podcast Tim is one of my mentors one of my heroes Tim you and I met I want to
say it was probably 15 years ago yes close I think Tim hosted a series with a
small business administration called uh grow smart and I was in that course and Tim
took us through like this intensive six- week crash course to an NBA I think I
would call it is that an accurate way to describe it yes and for your listeners you at the top of your class I don’t
know whether you realize you we were grading and you were at the top of your place I it was every Friday it was all
day Friday it was my favorite day of the week not just because it was Friday and
you did such a great job of bringing so much information to each and every class
and every Friday it was a different subject like we would talk about HR we would talk about marketing one of the
courses we had was uh how do we put Trace out of business and you put me in the middle of the course on a stool and
and and you tried to figure out my blind spots and I think we met six times and I just loved that and then on the sixth
day I had the realization that there wasn’t a seventh day and I I was really
upset and I said Tim I don’t want this to end and you said well I’m glad you said something and then you invited me
into your vistage group and I believe I was in that group with you for about 10 years yes I think so the trusted adviser
group yes and that was just phenomenal that was my first introduction into a
mastermind type group you had to explain what it was to me and then once I was
introduced to the group and talk about a friendly inviting group I mean that the group of people within our our group was
just amazing I felt like I was a member on the very first day and we were able
to process issues and just share with the wealth of knowledge and experience
of everybody in that room and you were the conductor of that and you just I I I
really admire how you facilitate I facilitate now and I tell you one in
doubt I just asked myself what would Tim Fulton do and I try to channel Tim
Fulton Tim you have taught me so much about facilitation how to do it right I
want to say thank you for that oh you’re very welcome trace and it was always you
were a great addition to the group and it’s just so cool to see how now you’re
leading the class you’re you’re in front of the class and and you’re you’re doing so well with your Mastermind groups uh
it’s just it’s fun to see uh where where this is taking you I don’t think I’ve
ever shared this on the podcast but since you’re here I’m going to share it you and I met at a Chick-fil-A for lunch
I think it was a right before covid and you and I on a napkin figured out how to
launch your Mastermind and how I was going to launch my Mastermind and then we had a deadline we were holding each
other accountable that we were going to do it we had a couple of meetings in between and now what is it five years
later yeah boy it’s hard to believe time has gone by very quickly yeah so I I
really want to thank you for that meeting I don’t know if I would have done it as soon as I pulled the trigger
on it if you didn’t push me and it was the right time I mean everything happens
in the right time but that especially because I was able to launch two groups right before Co and I think everybody in
those original two groups would agree Co would have been a lot harder to navigate
if we did not have all the collective knowledge of each other and we were all
doing this for the first time nobody had a playbook for covid so we had to figure out how to write policies how we were
going to what happens if somebody got covid do we need to shut the office down how do we notify that and we were able
to do that as a group not as an individual so thank you for pushing me towards that a lot of people got the
benefit of it oh you’re very welcome very welcome and Tim you and I meet on a regular basis uh one of my favorite
questions that you ask is what have you been reading I think you’ve asked that
every single time that I have met you and uh recently you were telling me
about a book that you have read and of course uh the book is on hiring I
believe it’s foolproof hiring powerful proven keys to hiring High performers
did I say that right got yes that’s it so and with that uh you and I have
spoken at length how do we keep our high performers how do we make sure that uh
people are happy here it’s a great workplace that we’re doing everything that we can to to keep people here
because the brutal fact is there’s not really that many people out there to replace them anymore we are in this
demographic drought we’re we’re not having people apply for jobs as they
once did so we need to keep all of these people happy and you helped us quite a
bit with that on episode 280 but we’re going to shift gears a little bit if I understand on this episode and we’re
going to talk about how do we attract those High performers to our businesses
yeah it’s it’s how do we attract them and then how do we reel them in how do we secure that talent I think those are
the two key things now so would you say that that since you came by for a visit
on episode 280 that we have seen a shift where there are more people back in the marketplace they are looking for jobs
and it’s not as dire as it once was yes I would I would agree with that you know
uh we went through you know of course covid and then the uh the great resignation when so many employees for
different reasons decided they wanted to to leave the labor market they wanted to take a break or they wanted to retire
or they wanted to just relax for a little bit and that that took place for
about 6 to 12 months and then we started seeing then we had the great return and
we began to see employees come back whether it was to their own company or
they were going into different Industries different jobs but they decided uh again in Mass to come back
and fortunately the result of that is I think most business owners would tell
you today the labor market has has improved over the last 12 months there
seems to be more and better candidates available it doesn’t mean that’s that
it’s a good Market but it has certainly improved over the last year to year and
a half Tim what emerging Trends do you see in the hiring
landscape Trace I there a couple things that I see one I I referenced earlier I
think the labor market in general has has improved for small and midsize
companies it’s rare that I talk to a business owner who says I can’t find
this person or I’m having trouble getting enough of these people but it seems to to be improved I think second
is that businesses have learned that they’ve that they they’re having to do things differently than they did before
covid they’re having to look in different places I I like to say fish in
different ponds meaning that if they weren’t hiring people you know right out of college
maybe now they’re having to hire people with less experience or they’re having to look for people in different markets
to come to their Market or people with different education different skill
levels so they’ve had to expand their reach and their Vision in terms of
hiring today and then third is they’re finding that they’re having to be more
flexible in their hiring more flexible in terms of maybe that instead of
working five days it’s working four days instead of working in the office it’s it’s maybe a hybrid of working from home
and working uh in the office flexibility in terms of just the nature of the job
maybe in the way that it’s crafted so just being more flexible with employees
in the job and and the responsibilities I think companies are finding themselves
just being more flexible Tim the remote work issue is looked at
differently upon several people there’s one camp where as long as the work is
getting done it really doesn’t matter where the person is doing it and then there are other people that say nope
I’ve got to have that person in their seat in this office in order to know
that they’re working I I know there’s everything in between that as well but a
lot of people are moving to remote work especially after Co so where do those
two camps land these days yeah that’s that’s a a great question and one that
seems to come up quite often I I wrote you know I write a monthly newsletter small business matters and I wrote an
article about this last month and what I said is that I think the business owners
in large are asking the wrong question because the question they’re asking is
you know should it should they be working from the office should they be working from home should it be some type
of hybrid uh situation and again I think that’s the
wrong question I think the better question that business owners should be asking is do I trust my employees
because if I if I trust Trace Trace is one of my employees and he understands
what his job is and he understands what I expect from this job and he’s agreed
to that then who am I to tell him to work in the office or work from home or
do both both all I say is is Trace do what you’ve got to do to achieve these
results the ones that you and I have agreed upon and I trust that you can then figure out on your own how how that
looks in terms of where you’re working and how you’re working when you’re working but it comes down to do I trust
my employees because if I don’t trust my employees then I have to tell them I
have to tell them okay on Mondays and Thursdays you’re coming to the office and Tuesday Wednesday you get to work
from home and Friday you know we’ll flip a coin if I don’t trust my employees
I’ve got to be looking over their shoulder I’ve got to be micromanaging them um I’ve got to be telling them you
know what to do and when to do so again I think the bigger question and it’s it’s a maybe a more difficult question
for a business owner is do I trust my employees I remember we had a speaker at
one of the all city vistage meetings where he was talking about unlimited
paid time off and he had the same message that if you trust your people to
do the things that they need to get done then they should be able to take as much
time off as they need providing that they’re doing all the work and not loading it up more on somebody else I’m
kind of curious that seems like the same mindset that we’re talking about here are there a lot of companies that are
doing unlimited paid time off as well more certainly more now you know before
covid I you know I’ve been talking about this in different settings for for 15 or
more years this idea of allowing employees to to make their own decisions
about when to work how to work where to work and when I first began talking about it uh you know people would they
they would throw things at me they would say well you know that would never work in in my business you know maybe a
retail setting or a manufacturer setting and my response was I think it can work
anywhere if you have the right employees and the right structure in place in
terms of processes and procedures and then of course Co hit and you know we went from a relatively small 15% I think
or so of employees you know working from home to twoth thirds of employees working from home and all of a sudden
employers found that in some cases this this worked pretty pretty well that
essentially trace it comes down to as a as a leader as a manager do I want to
manage or regulate someone’s time or do I want to manage their work and I don’t
know about it you know comes down to do I want to manage compliance or do I want to manage performance and I don’t know
about you I would much rather manage an employes performance than manage their
compliance compliance meaning okay you’ve got to be at your desk at 8 o’clock in the morning and we’ll give
you a 10-minute break and then lunch between 12 and 12:30 but you better be back to your desk by by 12:30 that’s
compliance you know that’s that’s back that goes back to a you know the agriculture industry you had to be in
the fields because of the time you know the sun would come up at one point the sun would go down and so we had to
regulate you know when people worked well today you know our employees are many of them now are what referred to as
knowledge workers you know they’re not making stuff so much as they’re using
their mind and given that how important is it if they’re sitting at my desk or
your desk when they’re doing that work as long as they’re they’re performing and so that’s it’s again it’s it’s not
happening fast and some leaders are coming to this quicker than others but
the the train has left the station we’re not we’re not going backwards and
particularly for younger employees you know the first thing that gets their attention in a job listing is do I get
to work from home or not that’s the first thing is it virtual or is it hybrid or is it working the office and
if that’s not in the job listing then for many young employees they go to the next job listing they’re just going to
ignore that listing because they want to have flexibility they want to have options in terms of where they’re
working and companies that are are slow or not receptive to that idea are
missing out on a significant portion of the labor pool well speaking of listings
what are some key elements that we need to make sure that we’re correctly and clearly defining when we are writing
whatever ad for the position that we’re trying to fill well one is I mentioned is is what what are the expectations in
terms of where the job will will be conducted I think in in addition to that
and I advise my clients to be very clear about the expectations for results in
this position if you’re looking for a salesperson to bring in a million dollars in Sal
put that in the job listing because now instead of of someone who’s only capable of producing a $100,000 in sales they’re
not going to apply if you’ve set the bar and said you know you you need to bring in at least a history have a history of
bringing in a million dollars in annual sales then people who are going to respond to that are are gonna have had a
history in that in that regard so be specific about the results that you’re
looking for I would even put it in the job heading we’re looking for Atlanta’s
best salesperson with a history of producing a million dollars in sales so now again only the people who have that
most likely are going to respond to the ad versus you know 100 people who have no experience in sales or producing
sales so job expectation uh where’s the job going to take place is there flexibility to what
degree is their flexibility in the job and particularly for younger employees
they’re interested in opportunities for growth and what are the opportunities for growth in this position am I going
to start off as a clerk but then maybe have an opportunity to become a manager
is this a management position and I have an opportunity to become a a vice president what are the opportunities for
growth particularly for younger employees very important Tim there’s so many platforms out there to post job
listings which ones should we be using and why yeah indeed Trace indeed seems
to be the front runner continue to be the front runner at this point LinkedIn I think again depending on the the the
the size company the industry LinkedIn I think is also a good place to post I suggest to my clients to put their their
job listings on their own website it’s it’s interesting to me how many companies fail to have a like a career
page on their website with their listing uh openings I think that’s a good idea I
think if there’s a local college or university many times those institutions
have uh a a job office and they have an online presence and that might be a good
place to put a listing it’s it’s identifying who you’re looking for where
you’re looking and saying okay what are those people hang out and if if they’re hanging out on a particular website if
they’re hanging out a particular organization then I want to get my listing in in that place and the
Workforce Now consists of is it four generations we’ve got the Boomers gen xers Millennials gen Z’s did I name them
all I think so I think we have four or five now for the first time ever in in the workplace yeah now all of those are
looking for something different so is it is it realistic to say that we could do
that with one listing probably not and that’s why I think uh I would want to be
mindful of the the demographics of what I’m looking for in terms of age uh
education skill levels what generation do they fall into I think what we’re
finding particularly with younger employees today there are three things that seem to be really important and
I’ve I’ve already referenced a couple of them one is is their flexibility uh in
in this position second is are there are there growth opportunities you know I
understand I may start in this job but are there opportunities for growth and
then third is is how how purposeful is
this company and this is not something that we used to talk much about is you know does this company have a strong
Mission a strong purpose but what we’re finding with younger employees this is
particularly important to the point where many of them would take a job with less pay if they can work for a company
with a strong purpose or mission where they feel like what the their work is
contributing to something larger something more more significant so one
that means that companies need to be clear about what is their purpose what is their mission and be able to
communicate that in such a way to a potential hire that they feel like hey you know I may not be making as much
money in this job but I’m doing something important and that’s that’s meaningful to me Tim we’re going to turn
this into one of our coaching sessions so when I’m telling somebody about our firm I have a tendency to want to sell
them on it because I’m a galvanizer but that’s not what you’re supposed to be doing on the interview so how do I make
sure that somebody knows that there is purpose here and I love being here and I love leading this tribe but I’m not
leading them to say yes when the answer should have been no boy that’s a great
question I think knowing Trace knowing you and your energy your exuberance your
passion that’s going to show up really quickly in a job interview and what that suggests to the candidate is is that you
know there is a purpose to what these guys are doing there must because of the way he expresses himself the way he
communicates about this this company and then and then secondly is is I think you
want to lead instead of leading with well you know we we do water testing it’s you know we’re all
about ensuring you know the water quality for thousands of people in these
these buildings and companies that we work with that that it’s safe for them to work out expressing you know the why
in your work versus the what in your work because in today’s world they’re far more interested in the why than the
what and so I think you want to lead with that and that’s I think that’s going to play really well again
particularly with younger employees one of the books you recommended that I read several years
ago was Simon cynic start with why I just want to put a plug for that because that really changed how I talked to
everybody about what it was that we do so we’ll make sure to put a link in the show notes page for that Tim speaking of
the interview some interviews are better than others what should we be doing
during the interview it’s my belief that you know when I go into an interview
there are three questions that I want to be able to answer about this candidate
and those three questions are can he or she do the job do they have the skills The Experience can they do the job can
they do the job here you know they may have been a superstar at at you know Acme Incorporated but this is not Acme
Incorporated this is Tim Incorporated and can they do job here in this with this company
and then the third question is can they do the job with me because again they may have been very successful working
with their old manager or leader but I’m not that old manager I’m not that old
leader and can they be successful working for me so typically that first
question can they do the job we usually answer that you know with the the candidates resume you know what is their
experience what is their education what have their accomplishments been and and usually the first interview usually the
screening interview is all around you know can they do the job and maybe I’ll give them a a test of some skills test
of some sort to confirm my answer to that question but it’s the second
question third question I think are far more important and those usually get answered in the second interview there’s
there’s an old saying and Trace you may remember that we hire people for their skills we fire them for their behavior
because we assume that if if they can do the job if they have the skills that we just assume they’re going to be a good
fit right who would not be a good fit with my company well as it turns out a lot of people may not be a good fit for
my company and so it’s that second interview when I I begin talking about
our culture which is usually a a function of our core values core values
are you know the guiding principles you know within my my company and what I
tell my my clients is in that that second interview at least 50% of that
second interview should be all about those core values you know is is Trace a
good fit will he be a good fit within my my company and so as an example if I
have if I have five core values and usually it should be a limited number if I have five core values my rule of thumb
is if I’m if I’m H interviewing someone there should be a complete uh fit with three of the core
values a positive fit with the fourth core value and I’m going to call it a a
neutral fit on the fifth core value neutral meaning they’re not anti let’s
say the core value is uh competition you know we love to compete so neutral fit would be well I I
don’t it’s not that I don’t like to compete it’s just I’m maybe not as competitive as Tim is and Nation Tim is
very competitive just play any game with him so 100% fit on Three core values
positive fit on a fourth neutral on a fifth and if I can do that if I can find someone uh in in that line I’ve got the
right person the other thing that’s interesting and this came out of this book foolproof hiring that I thought was
so interesting is that I don’t know that this is generational but over the over the the
the research suggests over 50% of the candidates that I interview are going to
be dishonest and when I read that I thought how could that be and then I thought
about many of the interviews that I had that there there was a little little white lie in there somewhere maybe
something on their resume that wasn’t quite accurate maybe some experience they shared with me in the interview
that wasn’t quite as good as what they said but over 50% of the candidates are
going there’s going to be some bit of dishonesty in in the interview and part of so part of my job in the interview is
is to figure out is this person being honest is he or she telling me the the truth and you know that’s not always
easy you know I’m not there are people who do that as a profession and uh in in
you know reading deceptive Behavior so but as best as as you and I can we’ve got to figure out you know is this
person being honest because if they’re not being honest in the interview you can imagine what happens once I hire
that person it’s not like all of a sudden they become completely honest that’s unlikely so one of the tricks
that came out of this book that I love is and they’ve got it there’s a name for it it’s called the truth motivator I
like that the truth motivator and what the author suggests this is Brad smart He suggests that in the beginning of the
second interview I say the following I say Trace if this process continues up
to making a an offer to you I’m going to ask you for several references and
you’re going to be responsible for arranging those references with the people that I
choose is that clear and you would nod your head you’d say sure I that makes sense I’m going to have to provide you
with references well it’s interesting to me that one number one I ask people you know business owners you ask for
references and how many business owners do not ask for references and that just
that just boggles my mind but secondly if they do ask for references they allow
the candidate to provide their own references so who do they provide they provide a family member they provide a
nextdoor neighbor their college roommate all of whom of course are gonna give
glowing reviews on this candidate well that’s of no use to me so instead as I’m
going through the course of the interview with you that second interview and you mention that the manager that you work for last you you you mention
the client that that you got along so well with you mention the direct report
that you had maybe had some issues with those are the people that I want to talk to in terms of references so when you
and I finish I’m going to say Trace I want you to arrange an interview I’m not going to do it you’re going to set this
up for me to meet with that customer that direct report that last manager and
just let them know that you know you’ve applied for this job and and you’re and I’ve asked for them as references and
what’s interesting what the research shows is the honesty of the candidate goes now goes way up because they know
that everything they’re telling me in this interview I’m going to fact check with these individuals and if they’re
lying to me I’m going to find out and I think that’s just it’s a brilliant mechanism for uring that I’m getting
getting as truthful as information in the job interview as possible just by making that statement that you know when
you and I are done before before I hire you I’m gonna ask I’m gonna ask for and you’re going to give me a handful of
references that I plan on speaking to I’ve always used references but to try that line out I can’t wait to try that
out Tim that’s fantastic and these are the tips that you’re given me throughout our 15-year history together so just
making making our business so much better you know thinking back one of the tips you gave me years ago was an
assessment for us to use when we were hiring I can’t remember the company name but there was something in there and it
says are they faking it and there was like a faking score to that uh do you
still recommend assessments like that I do and I’m careful I’m careful to
recommend I I I definitely recommend usually a behavioral assessment whether it’s a Myers Briggs it’s a dis it’s a
predictive index I think some are better than others in terms of the hiring process and yet what I tell my clients
is you don’t want to allow the assessment to make the hiring decision it’s not going to tell you yes
I should hire Tim or no I shouldn’t hire Trace what it should do instead is it
should support my own conclusions about Tim as a candidate if I’ve come to
believe that you know he’s more of a a long-term thinker than short-term thinker that he’s more of a decision
maker than a you know a reactionary because over you know we just tend to make those those assumptions after we’ve
spoken with someone a good behavioral assessment will reinforce those
assumptions so and uh just as important is then post hire a good assessment will
say okay once I’ve hired trade you know uh he needs to work on you know
becoming more decisive he needs to work on you know becoming a better Coach with
his employees so those assessments can be very helpful in post hire training
and coaching that’s what I think they can be equally helpful there but yeah I still recommend them as part of the
hiring process as well another tip that you gave us and this was years ago again
we tell time in Co it was several years before covid we had a tremendous amount
of activity on a posting that we had listed and so much so it was difficult
to whittle through all the candidates and it was also very time consuming and one of the recommendations that you gave
to me was do a group interview and I will tell you that intimidated me but we
did it and it was genius because now people were competing against each other
and I I kind of wondered how much of it was for show for the other people or or
to show off for for me but there were things that came out and there was also a hustle that came afterwards where if I
asked people to do something it was now I’ve got to get this to them first so my question is if somebody’s going to do
that group interview what are the parameters that they should be using and is it still appropriate
postco uh couple thoughts there Trace one is when I think of group interviews
it can go either way one a group of us interviewing you on an individual basis
the book foolproof hiring that I reference they recommend that you should always interview in pairs that there
should always be two people conducting the interview for a number of different reasons that one one one is that you get
t two different perspectives on the candidate you also take turns asking questions so it allows the other person
to be thinking ahead in terms okay what do I want to ask and what am I and I also get to witness the candidate
responding to my partner’s questions so I’m getting to observe a little bit more than if it was just me interviewing you
and then on the flip side is what you were referencing is doing group interviews where uh let’s say I’ve
narrowed the field down to three candidates I’ve I’ve got three folks that I think maybe all three could do
the job but I can only pick one so now I bring bring them all together and I interview them together and I now I get
to compare and contrast each of them shoulder toosh shoulder and I’ve again I
continue to to do this because I just find it really interesting and helpful to interview with them at the same time
and and to be able to see them answering the same question uh you know one one
after another and be able to compare okay how do they how do they interact with me how do they interact with each
other so I think it’s just as useful of a tool today as it as it was you know
four or five years ago is it necessary I think some positions it may be you know
more valuable as we go up the the food chain so to speak of jobs you know for a
blue collar person doing warehouse work would I need to do that uh maybe maybe
not but if I were hiring a a senior vice president and again I’m looking for the
best candidate out of a group of three or four I think I would still do that
when we did it it was more nerve-wracking of the regular interview than we we normally did but it was very
interesting the results and we haven’t done it postco maybe we we need to look
at that if uh we have three candidates that we’re choosing from next time a question I now have let’s say in this
example we did have three candidates and we couldn’t hire all of them but we did
hire one how do we now ensure that we made the right decision what I encourage if particular
if I’m using multiple people to interview is to create a a scorecard I’m
going to score people on their their skills their expertise and to have everyone give a a number score for each
candidate on each skill I suggest to my clients to identify a minimum of of five
skills or competencies for every job you know what do they need to be able to do to be successful in this job and then
we we score them on each of the skills each of us and then second is to score
them on the we mentioned core values uh and score them on their alignment with
our with our core values so that if I’m scoring on five core values and five
skills and it’s it’s a I’m scoring on a scale of 1 to 10 so the maximum would be
100 and so when we’re all done and there are three of us that have conducted the interview then we compare our scores and
one we we establish what’s a minimum in terms of you know we don’t hire anybody
below X I normally recommend below 70 for you at maybe 80 or or something
we we determine a minimum but then we compare scores and then we might Talk Amongst ourselves and say wow you gave
this person a a seven on this skill and I gave him a five why the difference what did you see that I I didn’t see I
just think it’s helpful because we’re all hindered in making these decisions and that we’re all inherently biased you
know I like I like left-handed people you like right-handed people I like short people you like tall people I like
people from the north you like people from the South we’re all inherently biased and those biases can’t help but
make their way into hiring decisions so the more we’re able to bring more and
different people into the high in decision I think the the better off we
are just to help overcome some of those just those natural biases that come into the hiring
process there’s a saying that goes something like higher slow set free
quickly how do you ensure that now we’ve gone through this entire process that
the person understands the expectations the expectations are being met on both
sides and we don’t go too terribly long if there is a connection I’ve you a very
similar adage you know higher slow Fire fast you know we tend to do the exact opposite we tend to hire way too fast we
tend to fire way too slow but the higher slow Fire fast I I mentioned that I
guess about six months ago I was talking to a vistage group and in the audience was a CEO of a large Staffing firm and
he he interrupted me he said Tim i’ I’ve got it I’m sorry I’ve got to interrupt you I said um I need to clarify what you
said you want a higher slow but do it fast and Fire fast I said what do you
mean by that he said in today’s world once you have made a hiring decision you
need to be be prepared to act very quickly because the candidates that
you’re you’re talking to more than likely you’re speaking to three four six other companies getting multiple offers
and if you’re not prepared to act quickly on a hiring decision you’re at risk of losing that that that good
candidate so you want to hire slow but but do it fast once you’ve once you’ve made made a decision the average hiring
time I think what I last thing I saw over the last five years the average hiring period has been cut by about five
days so companies are are finding themselves hiring quickly I think because of the Dynamics of the of the
labor pool uh that we that we talked about earlier but what I tell my clients
is is try to build speed bumps into the hiring process multiple interviews
multiple people conducting interviews checking references using the behavioral
assessment because the cost of making a bad hire is is way too expensive to to
rush into this the the average hire on the low side that I saw recently was one
year salary so if if this employee is going to make $50,000 a year if I make a
mistake in this hire that’s a $50,000 mistake I don’t know too many small businesses that can afford too many of
those types of mistakes Tim I know you have a podcast and a newsletter can you tell the
scaling up Nation a bit about those sure thank you the the newsletter is called small business matters I’ve been
publishing the newsletter now for over I hate to think over 25 years I’ve been
publishing the newsletter comes out once a month it’s free of charge it’s by subscription any of your L listeners can
find it on my website which is small business business matters online.com small busm matters
online.com I also started doing a podcast maybe five six years ago it’s
called small business matters as well and about once a month I interview
someone who I just find interesting it could be an author it could be a speaker it could be a small business owner and
my son and I my son oldest son Taylor and I uh co-host the podcast and it’s
just fun we just like yourself we have fun doing it we get good guests and
we’re fortunate enough that we typically end up getting good content for the listeners as well but that’s and it’s
available on all your major platforms Spotify Apple uh for podcasts small
business matters we will make sure to have those links on our show notes page
Tim I can’t remember how many times you’ve been on the program so you’re on round four I think of the lightning
round are you ready yeah I am I think I think I’m ready so now if you get them wrong there’s penalties involved so just
just be careful round round four is serious all right one of my favorite questions and I alluded to this earlier
is what are you reading so I’m going to twist that a little bit and uh I’m
making up my own questions you’re looking at your notes but these are these are things that I’m just going to throw right at you again we’re on round
four here if you were on a desert island and you could only take say three books
with you what would those books be Stephen cavey’s seven habits of highly
effective people that was the first book first business book I ever read couple
years out of college and it it really changed my
mindset my thinking around just life in general and how I wanted to conduct my
life so and I’ve reread it I don’t know how many different times so I’d bring that along I’d bring along something by
Jim Collins he’s one of my favorite authors good to Great probably most famous for and I find myself reading and
rereading his books on a frequent basis so then that’s going to leave me with a
third book a third book you mentioned Seth Goden earlier and I’ve read a number of his books and whenever I read
one of Seth Golden’s books my head hurts so if I’m on that island if I don’t have
access to aspirin or or painkiller I’d still go with Seth Goden just because he
makes me think harder than most authors maybe of any author over the next year
what are you looking forward to most oh uh you may know that I know you know
this is I have walked the El Camino Santiago in Spain on three different
occasions which is crazy by itself and if you’re listen aren’t familiar this is
It’s been around for centuries there’s about a dozen different walks they all end up in Santiago Spain the most
popular walk is a 500 Mile Walk I’ve done that one twice I did the one from
Lisbon uh once this summer I’m doing it’s called the Camino Norte which is a
walk that goes along the northern coast of Spain starts in San Sebastian and
works its way along the northern coast and then dips down into Santiago again
and I leave on May 28th and I’ll be gone for a month I can’t wait Tim this is one
of your questions I’ve heard you asked this you’ve asked this to me what would you say your superpower is I love
turning the tables on you yeah curiosity I had six meetings today six coaching
sessions and I woke up this morning think how how am how am I going to make it you’ve been in the same position how
am I going to make it through six coaching sessions and all I did was allow my curiosity to take over and just
as you do beautifully is just and just being curious and asking questions and
then being more Curious and asking more questions and I’ve hone that over time
I’ve got more work to do but I think just my being curious and being willing
to ask that question that’s burning in my head that says don’t ask don’t ask
and then I’ll ask and then it sets off a whole another round of questions it’s I
think it’s my curiosity timma I would say I would answer that the exact same way for you I’ve been the beneficiary of
your questions and I think I said on a previous episode you’ve never given me any advice and I’ve done the best things
from our meetings and you’ve never once told me what to do it’s all in your questions you are fantastic at the
questions that you ask thank you well uh speaking of magic you now have a magic
wand and you can change anything in the world what would you change this is going to be controversial
we may lose half your audience oh no I have a different perspective on the on
the immigration question you can’t pick up the newspaper without reading about immigration and who should come in and
why they should come in and and and such it’s a it’s a hot issue and so that’s I’m I’m reluctant sometimes to to bring
this up but I have a different opinion than most I think we should rather than
limit immigration is we should figure out ways to increase immigration in this
country because what’s driving our economy currently and this is not me speaking these are the best economists
what’s driving the American economy today is immigration it’s people coming
to this country and opening new businesses the vast majority of new businesses in this country are being
opened by by immigrants the consumption of goods and services in this country is
being driven by immigrants Innovations new ideas in this country are being
driven by immigrants and yet we want to limit that and it just I I don’t
understand it I think it’s mostly and these are friends of mine colleagues
family members and I think it’s driven by fear and if if it’s something I’ve
learned over time is is the understanding that the fear is the world’s greatest motivator it’s what
drives most decisions when I have a a coaching client and they’re stuck one of
my first questions is always what are you fearful of and I think fear is
driving this particular issue and what I see going on is you know we have a lot of immigrants that come to the US for
college and un University we remain The Hot Spot in the world for education and
yet what’s happening now is they’re coming here to study and then they’re going to Canada or they’re going to
Australia or they’re going to Italy to start their businesses we’re educating
them but they’re taking their entrepreneurship to different countries
and that that pains me because I want the US to be the the center of entreprene preneurship and we’re losing
that and we’re losing that because of a this fear around immigration and I’m I’m hopeful maybe my
magic wand that this will change you know there’s a pendulum to a lot of issues and certainly the pendulum has
gone way towards a anti-immigrant and I
think that’s unfortunate I’m not going to change that but I think that’s unfortunate and so I’m hoping that
pendulum will will swing back one day I’m glad you brought that up because when we can get that out there when we
can talk about it when we talk we can solve anything and I think when we just
think about something generically it is fear-based but everybody knows that one
person that if if you knew this one person you wouldn’t like that law you wouldn’t think what we were doing is
correct because now we have empathy and we’ve got to figure out how to swing that pendulum back so we’re talking
about things with empathy and we’re talking about things that are hard to talk about very much so thank you Tim as
always for mixing things up on the scaling up H2O podcast I have learned so
much from you throughout the years and you’re one of the reasons that I decided to start this podcast this was I think a
result of one of the issues I was thinking about hey what could I do next in one of our visted sessions and the
podcast came out about that and you guys had to explain to me what a podcast was because I didn’t know at the time so I
want to thank you for just just being such a mentor such a guide throughout my
life and sharing some of those experiences with the scaling up Nation tra very welcome and I hope you’ll have
me back again I look forward to coming back again nation I am sure that you can tell
I appreciate that man so much Tim Fulton has just been such a help to me in in
life in business I’ve known Tim for so many years and Tim has really helped me
with one question I he talked about how he loves to ask question and how
curiosity is in his nature he asked me a question at the end of that grow smart
series that we talked about and he said Trace let me ask you this how do you know that you don’t know something and
that question has just burned a hole in my brain since he’s asked it and I can’t
tell you how many books I’ve read because of that question question how many conferences I’ve attended because
of that question how many people that I introduce myself even though it was
extremely awkward because of that question that question just lit a fire
under me and I would say that this podcast is a product of this question
The Mastermind is a product of that question that was one of the best questions somebody has ever asked me
and the thing is how do you know what you don’t know you don’t know and I have
just spent the rest of my life trying to figure those things out now of course you’re never going to know everything
that you don’t know but that question if that helps you as it’s helped me has
read or allowed me to read so many books I don’t think I would be as Avid of a
reader as I am without that question so Tim thank you for your curiosity thank
you for that question and thank you for we’re still trying to figure out how many times he’s been on this podcast at
least two we’re thinking four we’re going to go with four and if you want to
catch up with Tim on previous episodes episode 22 was one of the very first
ones that Tim was on and then most recently episode 280 which he talks about top talent and I think the
interview today along with episode 280 are a great compliment Tim really has a
great way with words and explaining very difficult subjects very simplistically
and especially giving you takeaways so you can immediately apply what we’re
talking about so you heard that in today’s interview you’re definitely going to hear that in the other episodes
that I mentioned and Tim is also one of those people that challenges me it’s
always with a question he never tells me what to do except except for the
Mastermind now I was thinking about this when I made that comment earlier I I’ll go ahead and tell the rest of that story
Tim and I met at a Chick-fil-A and uh here in Atlanta we
have these special Chick-fil-A called dwarf houses and they’re supposed to be
a replica of the original Dwarf House which was the restaurant that Chick-fil-A originally came from so
there are these sit down Chick-fil-A restaurants called dwarf houses and there’s one over here by our
office and that’s where Tim and I met and we were talking about the Mastermind and it was right there during lunch
where Tim said we need to do this and we both outlined how we were going to do the Mastermind and we helped each other
outline how we were going to do each and every step at that lunch and then we held each other accountable for that Tim
has a mastermind out of that I have a mastermind out of that and Nation one of
my favorite things besides this podcast is The Mastermind I get to meet with
these incredible people each and every week we have an issues processing track
that we go through and I know for a fact that the people that are involved in The
Mastermind are getting further and faster and having more fun than the
average person in our industry just because we get to share the experience
with each other just because we get to help each other with past experiences so
nobody ever has to start on the very first step there are so many things that
we do to try to make each other better people in every aspect of our lives but
the bottom line is is that we are all friends and we are friendly people
helping each other get further faster and Nation I just love when Tuesdays and
Wednesdays roll around each and every week to see all these wonderful people
in The Mastermind so Nation if that is something that you want to check out and
maybe the rising tide Mastermind is not right for you but I promise there’s one
out there that is but if you want to check out the rising tide Mastermind you can go to risingtide
mastermind.com slm Mastermind to find out more and if it sounds like something
you want to learn more about then I would be happy to call you to tell you all about it and see if the Mastermind
is right for you and you are right for the Mastermind we just had our live
event last month and we had some incredible speakers come in and I tell
you we always have some sort of challenging assignment that we do that makes us better on the other side it was
so much fun with that assignment and it was just amazing to see all the people
come together because we get to see each other in person during that week and our
speakers motivated us to be better at the things that we were doing and I
think everybody left everybody went home and they immediately were able to put those things in action I know I am
better because I am a member of that Mastermind group and I hope everybody in
that Mastermind group can say the same thing Tim also mentioned that he has a
newsletter and I love his newsletter I had no idea it had been around for 25
years but I want to have a link for that on our show notes page I get so many
great topics from his newsletter so you might want to check that out and then
also his podcast is called small business matters and I had the honor of
being on one of his earlier podcasts it was called creating a positive culture with Trace Blackmore
and I want to say it was probably his 10th episode it was one of the early ones so uh as always Tim thank you for
including me on the Endeavors that you are working on and thank you for being a coach throughout all the things that you
have coached me on somebody that I think is a coach to all of us that tries to
challenge us each and every week is our friend James McDonald so here is a new
drop by drop with James [Music]
welcome to drop by drop with James the podcast segment where we wonder explore
think about imagine and learn industrial water treatment you guessed it drop by
drop together in today’s segment I have a
challenge for you challenge accepted the challenge
is to ask your customer what what you can do better I mean to walk up to your
customer look them in the eye and tell them not to hold back and ask them what
you could be doing better for them if they give you positive feedback great if
they unload all their pinup frustration upon you thank them for taking the time and caring enough to share their
thoughts with you then take the time to give careful consideration to the feedback you received even if it offends
you at first try to have empathy with the customer to understand where they are coming from then use this moment to
grow and become better communication is a two-way street so be sure to let them
know how you have reflected upon and implemented any relevant
advice I’m James McDonald and I want to encourage you to be like water by forming bonds with those around you
dissolving new knowledge and making worthy ripples drop by
drop thank you James and thank you scaling up Nation I am so happy that you
have decided to spend the last hour listening to this podcast hey we’ve got
360 something more listen to another one before you get out of the car and Nation
thank you for being part of the scaling up Nation we’ll have a brand new episode for you next week until then take care
everybody
pap [Music]