The following transcript is provided by YouTube. Mistakes are present. To hear the podcast episode, click HERE.
[Music]
today’s episode is sponsored by the rising tide Mastermind the rising tide Mastermind is where people just like you
get together every week to help each other with issues let’s face it issues
are hard so why start from square one when somebody can tell you what they’ve
done with a similar issue if this sounds like something that’s interesting to you
go to scaling up h2o.com Mastermind to see if the rising tide
Mastermind is right for [Music] you welcome to the scaling up H2O
podcast my name is Trace bmore the host of this amazing water treatment podcast
folks I can’t tell you how much I enjoy being the host of this podcast and that’s all because you tune in each and
every week to listen to this podcast so thank you for that so many things going
on number one I’m going to mention that today on January 26th my lovely bride
Stacy was born so happy birthday Stacy I did not forget I have got an amazing
gift for you and I’m going to make sure that you have an amazing day as well so
it’s my hope that all of those industrial water Traders out there that
have spouses make sure you are taking care of your spouse especially on their
special day because goodness knows they take care of us think of all the stories
that they listen to about our day that are oh so interesting when we’re telling
them to each other but maybe not so much outside but I have no doubt that they
listen just like it is the best story that they have ever heard so make sure
you celebrate your special person and once again happy birthday to Stacy
Blackmore I can’t tell you how many things she motivates me to do Nation I
hope that you have decided that this year was going to be the year that you
got some sort of certification and in the industrial water treat industry
there are so many certifications out there we’re going to talk about one today during the interview but before we
get there one that I love to promote is the certified water technologist
designation the certified water technologist designation is the highest designation in the industry of
industrial water that I practice and I am so proud to hold that designation and
I know so many people that have re receive their cwt and I will tell you
when you get a designation like that it does something for your confidence it
just makes you feel like you belong in the seat that you were in and whoever
you are speaking with it just gives you more weight because you have that
designation behind your name now I know for a fact that there are so many people
out there that could pass the certified water technologist examination but they
lack the confidence to sign up for the exam so I want you to get my free gift
to you by going to scaling up h2o.com
cwt prep there is a free course where I go over the cwt handbook and help you
with everything that you need to know about becoming a certified water technologist I go over the 10 example
questions and give you you a look inside the paid for course that we also have
available where I logically go through each one of those 10 problems and allow
you to know the process that I go through to try to discern which is the
best answer I go through some logic examples I also go through some
technical examples and I share with you places that you can go to to learn more
about the information that may be you need to bolster up on that program is my
gift to you because I know there are so many potential cwts out there and you
know that our mission here on this podcast is to raise the bar in the water
treatment industry one water treater at a time and when you get a certification like the certified water technologist
designation that means that you are A step above that means that you are doing
more than what’s required of you and that is helping the industry so please
look at that free course and if you want more than that free course we’ve got a paid course where I’ve created a 100
question practice exam where you will have questions that will be similar to
the topics you will be tested to on the cwt there’s water softener questions on
there there’s chemistry questions on there there of course math questions on there so we gave you a sampling of all
of that and then there’s a video for each one of those questions where you
can see how I get the correct answer and I also go through logic techniques and
lots of little things that you can do to improve your chances of selecting a
right answer even if you don’t know what the right answer is so all sorts of
standardized test techniques that I’ve learned over my lifetime I share with you and we’ve gotten some great feedback
where people said that those things really work so let me know what you think but all that’s going to be
available by going to scaling up h2o.com cwt prep well Nation as we have become
used to our friend James McDonald has a brand new installment drop by
[Music] drop
welcome to drop by drop with James the podcast segment where we wonder explore
think about imagine and learn IND duster water treatment you guessed it drop by
drop together in today’s episode I have a challenge for you challenge accepted my
challenge is to test for phosphate in your makeup Waters you may be surprised by what you
find municipalities frequently add phosphate based products for corrosion scale and staining control unknown
source of phosphate can certainly throw a boiler or cooling tire program out of control start with the orthop phosphate
test if polyphosphates are used you may need to run a digestion procedure or have your lab do it lastly calling your
municipality to ask if they use phosphate based products in their water may actually be the first place to start
don’t let an unknown phosphate Source throw your water treatment program out of
control I’m James McDonald and I want to encourage you to be like water by forming bonds with those around you
dissolving new knowledge and making worthy ripples drop by
drop thank you James you know Nation I mentioned on the very last episode of
last year that I got out of the Habit because it’s just not good for me to
constantly ly look at the ratings that we get on each and every podcast now the
great team here at scaling up H2O they look at that and they figure out how we make sure we have the best programming
and they just tell me that information but I was finding myself worth and ratings when I first started doing this
podcast and I realized that that wasn’t the best thing to do well one of the things that we look at is we do a lot of
social media posts we want you to get excited about being in this industry and letting you know about all the things
that are going on within this industry well one of the posts that got one of the highest ratings or the highest views
was a airport picture that James McDonald took of he and I together
actually it was Tom Tenny that took that picture and Tom Tenny I think was episode number three uh but he snapped a
picture of us we both posted that on our LinkedIn and I want to say we got
something over $7,000 views on that so there is no doubt that the world the
scaling up Nation loves James McDonald so James thank you for always putting so
much into the scaling up H2O podcast and making sure that we get smarter each and
every episode with all the challenges that you provide for us than you’ve been providing for us over the years scaleup
Nation let’s go ahead and go to our interview which I know you are going to
enjoy my lab partner today is Kristoff lore
professional engineer and vice president of Technical Services and research for
iapmo Kristoff how are you I’m doing well Trace thank you so much for having me on here and thanks for being on our
show I think a month or two ago yeah that was an absolute pleasure and uh I’m
doing uh more guest spots on podcast as they develop around water in our
industry and that just Delights me because there w weren’t that many podcast within the space when I started
seven years ago well and that was uh what you know what in many respects the podcast we started at atmo was in in
part A inspiration you know from from your podcast actually yours was one of the very first podcasts that I ever subscribed to as I was trying to learn
as much as I could about especially water quality and and in know my development as a professional engineer
so I am very tickled to be here so thank you so much again for the opportunity to join you and talk well the the pleasure
is ours and thank thank you for sharing that with me I’ve shared on the podcast many times I’m just speaking behind this
microphone I’m in Atlanta Georgia I never know if anybody’s going to listen to the episodes that we are recording
and to hear that uh people are not only listening they’re actually doing something with the episodes that makes
it all worthwhile so thanks for sharing that with me definitely definitely so I
I gave a brief introduction about your title but tell us a little bit more about Kristoff well you know it’s
interesting you know where when you think about life Journeys and and going from here to there thinking about where
I was over a decade ago and and where I’m at now feel very humbled feel very uh fortunate and very blessed uh to to
be doing the work I’m doing now but you know I guess for for your listeners you know if they haven’t met me or talked
with me before which I hope to at some point uh the the journey really started when I graduated uh from the Virginia
Military Institute in 2008 and I was looking at one of two Pathways one was either to go into nuclear power or the
other wasn’t to go into engineering Consulting and ultimately I decided to go the engineering Consulting route and
so I moved to the Midwest actually the Quad Cities right on the border between Illinois and Iowa in May June of 2008
and and really started my career as a mechanical design professional that was doing both hbac and plumbing about three
years later I had ended up moving to Phoenix and when I was in Phoenix that’s
really where I made that switch to piping and Plumbing Systems I became a piping engineer and that’s when I got my my PE I’m professional engineering
licensure in Arizona which is the first of now eight states that I have my engineering licensure in and it was
there in Phoenix when I first started where I started working on healthc care and Laboratories which from a plumbing standpoint are probably the most complex
buildings because you don’t just have water and waste you have medical gases or lab gases you have purified water
systems you have natural gas systems and the number of systems that a a plumbing
engineer a piping engineer would do in a healthcare or Laboratory facility it’s
just it’s so great and so that’s where I really started this whole process of water systems and and ultimately ended
up working for an engineering firm Henderson engineers and it was right
around the same time that I got I had kind of worked my way into aspan and started doing some professional speaking
I’ve been involved in Toast Masters earlier in my career and that speaking ability and then just my general
curiosity got me into as a good friend and colleague of mine Gary Cent says it got me into hot water and so I I really
have focused a lot of my career on hot water systems but also in general domestic water systems and it was right
around 2015 I started hearing about this whole thing called legionaire disease and Legion pneuma and the 2016 ASB Expo
came to Phoenix by chance um sometimes it’s all about being in the right place and right time and by that point I had
been involved with the local chapter I was able to go for free to the Expo and
during that Expo there was about five sessions of legionaire disease and I went to all five sessions you know I
basically didn’t do anything else other than Legionella numafa study you know trying to understand what what causes
impacts on those systems and uh there was his name Dr Janet Stout that kept coming up in these conversations and these articles and so I had some
questions about some supplemental disinfection and so and I no it’s her name was at the top of a few of these research articles and so I cold called
her and I kept you know kind of do a few cold calls and finally got her on the phone and I think she was really beused
that uh the first time that here’s this young engineer that just wants to learn more and was just wanting to go right to the source and that really was kind of
what put me I think on the on the map was that that Curiosity um the next year about two years later uh in 2018 I went
and was a speaker at the legionaire disease conference in Legionella conference to uh in Baltimore I was
invited to speak and uh was invited to come back in 2019 and I think what made
me unique in the in the realm of water quality was here was a a professional engineer you know somebody that had a
mechanical engineering degree and license that focused on Plumbing Systems that was one but this Focus that I had
had on waterborne pathogens and trying to understand water quality um again I’m not going to claim I’m an expert in it
but I think I I’ve come to understand a fair amount of it and that was really between that and my public speaking abilities was what kind of put me on the
map and from there uh you know I was ended up being recruited by iapmo and
the rest is kind of History I’ve been with iapmo now for three years actually uh you know we’re recording on here at the beginning of November so I’m
celebrating three years on November 2nd and it’s been a wonderful three years it’s a great organization really
wonderful people and uh now I get to do even more of what I love which is you know trying to focus
on on improving public health and safety uh you know for for the country and for the world some of our listeners may not
be familiar with iapmo can you talk a little bit about that certainly so iapmo
is short for the International Association of plumbing and mechanical officials we are an almost 100y old
organization uh we were founded in 1926 so about 3 years from now we’ll be celebrating 100 years and really the the
purpose of iapmo has been to develop codes and standards and thirdparty certifications for the plumbing and
mechanical Industries we tend to focus on Plumbing that is our strength and you know as a result you know we um you know
we have now worked we acquired assc International I think about a decade ago
and so we’ve really harmonized a lot of the standard creation products you know if you ever see like the assc 1017 or
1070 mixing valves or the listings for like uh assc 1087 for RO systems all
those come through iapmo and it’s we’re a nonprofit trade 501 C6 and we have
membership and those members uh along with stakeholders and in and Industry we use an an accredited process to develop
standards and codes and all of that has just been you know with a with a focus and and a dedication towards public
health and safety in the realm of plumbing and mechanical systems you know HVAC systems often is what we talk about
um but you know we do well more much more than Plumbing but that has definitely been the bread and butter for for almost a 100 years who are generally
your members uh we really have members that are all over the map you know I would say you know the most traditional
members are the plan reviewer and plan inspectors for plumbing and mechanical systems however we also have design
professionals we have water treaters we have manufacturers um basically anybody that touches any part of the plumbing or
mechanical system in the building has has been is members at this point um and we have a really really wide array of members and uh really that’s been I
think one of our strengths is we have really really intelligent really really smart really really insightful members
that that help provide and lend their their expertise with us uh through our code standards and product development
talking about standards the one our listeners is probably most familiar with is the assc
1280 can you talk a bit on about that yeah sure so the assc
1280 is a credential so we do product stands and we also do I should have mentioned credentialing standards and so
the one that I started with was actually the assc 6020 which was for medical gas it was a medical gas inspector there’s
also ones for installers and verifiers and maintenance personnel and now along with design professionals as of the the
last year or two but the assc 12,000 series specifically assc 1280 is for the
Legionella risk mitigation specialist and really when you start looking at the plumbing industry as a whole because
it’s fragmented because there’s a lot of different steps in designing and installing a plumbing system in a
building credentials have been one of the most important ways to Pro you know to help promote public health and safety
and prevent you know some kind of disease or dismemberment or death uh in the event of Plumbing Systems and so
that 1280 specifically is uh the legion risk mitigation specialist and so it provides a pretty broad overview of the
different steps and different components and contributing factors uh and what testing requirements are needed to help
prevent Legionella numafa in buildings and and out of Legionnaire disease and so I took that class that’s actually one
of my certifications and it I what I loved about it was every single
different entity that kind of touches a water management program was had little sections and so I think the true benefit
of a certification like that is it gets everyone speaking the same language which is so challenging when you have you know Plumbing experts and
microbiologists and water treaters and and others this kind of certification when I looked at the plumbing section it
was very simplistic but when I started going to the testing and the water treatment side I felt like okay here’s some really good information that that
now I can better speak the language of of a water treater or a microbiologist
and I think that’s the real strength in this is it gets everybody on the same page you know what’s what’s interesting to know Trace is that when you look at
Medical gas systems we’ve had credentials the assc 6000 series for a number of years and when you look at
Medical gas systems We have basically completely eliminated death from medical gas Sy systems because of the installer
having the right credential for this you know you can’t even install a medical gas system in the US without a 6010 uh
that is a requirement by NFPA 99 for code uh and that system has to have a third party validation in the form of an
inspector and verifier and I think when you look at Dentistry which has Exempted itself from these requirements from NFPA
99 and the assc 6000 series every year you have medical gas deaths or dismemberments especially of toddlers uh
in American Dental facilities so I think of this in in the same way that I think of you know for Water Systems you know
we know we have a problem with legioner disease and that’s one of many microbes if we can get the right credentials and get everybody talking the same language
I think we can make a lot of really good things happen to helping prevent disease of some kind and really again promoting
public health and safety which is what it’s all about so in ensuring that we’re all speaking the same language I have
heard it pronounced 12,080 I’ve heard it pronounced
12080 and everything in between what is the official way to call I atmo
credentials oh my gosh you know I I think it’s typically the 12,000 series
um because we call it the 6,000 series uh that’s the one I most come with I don’t know if there’s an official or right or wrong way I think the most
important thing is that people get the credential if they want to you know say it one way or the other I don’t think it’s necessarily wrong I think but it’s
more important about getting the information and having it than it is uh about the right way but I think I think typically what I’ve seen is like 12,000
series or 6,000 series you know it’s that thousand moniker after the first letters well that’s what I’ve been
saying so we’re going to make it official right here on the scaling up hoo podcast the correct way to say that
is 12,080 I love it I’m I’m all on board with that so uh in addition to all the
things you do with iapmo you also have a podcast I was I was very humbled that
you invited me to be on that podcast I’m curious why did you start that journey
and what has that Journey been like for you that’s that’s a that’s a wonderful question Trac and I have to say I was
humbled to have you on the podcast you know it’s it’s wonderful when you have these podcasts and people that you
listen to for years and you reach out and ask them and and there’s always this little bit like you know there’s no need
that they have to do this taking time out of their busy day to join us on these on these journey and and I was so
thankful for for for you to be on there and really share a lot of wonderful expertise and insights you know in many
respects what we did at Aatma what we saw was there was a need for us to start a podcast in part because even even
though much of our membership tends to be on the technical side really a lot of our you know some of our some of the
very important work that we do and you could even make an argument some of the most important work we do is on the policy side and especially because codes
and standards are adopted by jurisdictions um there is a policy element to you know to water to Plumbing
uh and other systems and so what we wanted to do with the podcast was to help close that Gap now at the same time
you know when you talk to an engineer we like to know what the big picture impact is of of of making a decision and why
these decisions are made I think you know especially as an engineer you’re trained to solve problems but you’re also trained to ask a lot of questions
uh because you want to get it really right you want to be really detailed and so what we found is we’ve had a lot of success from the podcast you know now we
have a YouTube channel that has the podcast episodes in video format along with social media posts that we take
some of the highlights from the podcast and all of these things that we’re doing now kind of help show the importance of
especially Plumbing Systems and and that impact on making Public Health a priority and and what that impact
Plumbing Systems have on that so uh in many respects we try to get some really important questions out there like our
first episode was uh with Dr Janet Stout and MaryAnn Dickinson who at the time uh was the executive director for the
alliance for water efficiency and this question was what is the Nexus between safety and sustainability because
oftentimes it seems like when it comes to water we’ve chosen one or the other it’s actually the same theme for this
year’s emerging water technology Symposium which is going to be SC Arizona May 14th and 15th where we’re going to be taking a much deeper dive
over two days on this question but what the podcast has allowed us to do is to take on these big questions to get
groups of people on or individuals on and we’ve changed the format over the years to try to get the best information in the best medium um so you know we are
experimenting a little bit which is fun but um I think we’ve kind of settled into a pretty good Niche and end up the
guests that we’ve had on have just had really really great stories and and insights that they’ve shared with us and that’s really been our Purpose with the
podcast is to be a resource another resource you know not just to policy makers but also to the industry you
mentioned Janet Stout and Dr Stout’s been on this podcast numerous times and
she just has an amazing ability to talk about waterborne pathogens in a very exciting and entertaining way definitely
definitely well that was who I took the assc 1280 class with and you know I have learned so much from her over the years
and I just you know she was always very gracious you know with with me especially when I was a a little bit
younger less gray-haired engineer that was just trying to figure out this whole thing and in many respect she always
made you know either gave me a recommendation of who to talk to or provide some insight or something to chew on um but always did so in a really
friendly way so yeah she’s I was gonna say I’m I’m a big fan of Dr Janet Stout and and just really always appreciative
of everything she’s done for me in my career let’s shift gears just a little bit and talk about plumbing code and
most of the audience within the scal andup nation are industrial water treaters and by the time we treat a
system everything’s already built we got to deal with what is given to us what
should we know about plumbing code and I’m kind of curious as that gets changed
as that becomes part of law regulations how should we be getting
involved what what should the water treater know about the plumbing code that is a that’s a fantastic question
trace and I’m I’m really glad you know we’re getting a chance to discuss that here because we need the plumbing
industry needs Industrial water treaters and Industrial water treaters needs the plumbing industry uh there’s a really
symbiotic relationship there between the two and I think what has happened for so many
years is water quality from a plumbing industry professional perspective water
quality was seen as everything up to the water meter and everything Downstream was seen as as you know Plumbing Systems
and I think especially in 2015 when ashray 188 came out it really changed the dynamic because now all of a sudden
we really had to start worrying about water quality in the built environment and during this whole time I think industrial water shers have been doing
stuff in the built environment but we didn’t really connect all the dots and so when I look at plumbing codes and
this was well before I joined iapmo in 2021 uh the uniform plumbing code is the plumbing code that iapmo produces it’s
adopted in just about half the us maybe a little bit less than half the US that particular plumbing code um follows an
anti accredited process and what’s beautiful about the anti accredited process is every group um so you
manufacturers special experts which is what I think a water industrial uh treatment profession would fall under
plan inspectors installers you know general interest categories each group
has a maximum amount of of representation on this technical
committee which is usually about 25 and no group has more no interest group has more than I think uh for the plumbing
code it’s 33% of the voting so it’s a balanced technical body the real technical expertise shines through and
it’s not just something where one group has all the say but it’s something where everybody has an equal vote and when you look at the
plumbing codes and especially the uniform plumbing code what you’ll notice is we’re starting to Broach into the subject more and more of water treatment
so when you look at the 2021 UPC there was appendix n as in November that was added which looked at Legionella growth
potential and skull temperatures and what you notice is in our effort to you know prevent scalding we’ve also created
some conditions that bacteria like to grow and in essence bacteria like the same temperatur as we do when you start
looking at some of the other documents that have come out in other co- proposals like at chapter six there’s
there’s a co- proposal about disinfection of water mains uh but also now on terms of Standards to follow for
commercial and residential water treatment systems and what to follow for product listings these are really
important because as an engineer when you’re going through and putting together design you’re not doing just piping you’re putting components and
piping all together and so what helps expedite the process during construction
is when you have a standard you’re listed to because you can really just look for that standard as part of the validation process that the products you
specified are getting into the building and that standardization really harmonizes what the whole industry is
doing my sense is that when we start talking about water quality um especially because we spend a lot of
time at iapmo you know doing product standards and there’s some new ones like asse LEC
2011-2021 this is one for Legionella filters that is new on on the market and so this is one that that you know we
have uh we already have our I think our first manufacturer that’s tested to this but it’s a validation of these products
do what they say and so what I would say is as this topic of water treatment
water filtration dealing with the chemistry inside water chemistry inside the built environment increases that need especially from from you know the
ashray 188 really kind of pushing that to the Forefront we’re going to need to be more proactive and so I think there’s
a wonderful opportunity for water treaters to engage with the uniform plumbing code process which starts uh we
have a call for proposals through January 12th of 2024 uh and then in May of 2024 I think
it’s the 6th through the 8th is when the uniform plumbing code technical committee meeting will meet and they’re
going to start voting on these proposals and and that’s really the first step where the process starts for the 2027
uniform plumbing code release that’s going to occur you know more likely than not I think sometime uh mid to late 2026
and then that’s where you can have that impact and so we’ve looked at a lot of different things we can touch maybe on some of them a little bit later but but
there’s a lot of different code language and ideas that have circulated that that we’re working on in addition to the codes and I think this topic of water
quality and plumbing is going to be a really important one moving forward obviously when you’re writing
these codes you are writing them so they can be adopted into legislature what is
that process like if your municipality says this is the code that we want to adopt or or maybe in the case of ashr
188 we want to take sections of this like New York did describe that process
if you would so it usually comes down to proponents uh of some kind that will you
know go to the to the policy makers and say hey this would be a really good good idea to accept sometimes it’s a little bit more streamlined because there may
be a plumbing board um that’s involved and in essence you know you’ll get up and down votes on the on the plumbing
code usually right now I think the the US has been pretty well settled um you know on which state wants which plumbing
code but the process is is in essence you know that this board or the the city
council or or state legislature will vote on the code and um we we’ll go ahead and officially adopt a code and
then once it gets adopted you know there’s various ways some of them will do a Statewide adoption uh Arizona gets really confusing because every city does
their own adoption which as an engineer drives you nuts but anywhere in between there and then once it gets adopted it’s
official now when it comes to the plumbing codes you know let’s say the UPC for example we have chapters 1
through 17 so if if h a jurisdiction you know adopts the UPC they just adopt
chapters 1 through 17 we have also now uh in the latest uh in the 2024 version
of the uniform pling code we also have appendices uh a through I think through
S at this point and those appendices are opin Provisions so if they want to have
an additional requirement like appendix n for example um they have to specifically up um opt into that they
have to say we’re going to adopt this in addition to the UPC but they’re available in there um because as we know
water quality and water concerns very region to region you know I live in Phoenix you know water droughts are much
more of a concern than where I grew up in Michigan uh even though droughts are kind of becoming a bigger concern no matter where you are you know water
quality also changes you know when you start looking at the the you know the Northeast you know their chlorine levels
tend to be much lower but you come out here to Arizona we’re close to four parts per million you know from the water distribution plant so those water quality parameters though all these
different things are changing there’s regional and local concerns and so with plumbing being local concern because water is a local concern we really have
made an effort to be customizable and and I would make the argument and I think it’s true that the uniform plumbing code is the most customizable
code out there and it’s just straight looking at the number of pendencies we have it provides so much variability for
jurisdiction to really tailor tailor make the plumbing code for their needs um with the realization that every
jurisdiction has their own needs you know when it comes to water and sanitation what are different
considerations that the plumbing code gives when we’re talking about either domestic water or utility water so
generally speaking the plumbing codes don’t touch the Utility side and that’s kind of I think that’s kind of been the
the line of demarcation for a number of years uh for decades you know if not 100
years plus so really Upstream of the water meters the utility Downstream is plumbing and even when you look at a set
of Plumbing plants with you know the hundreds if not thousands of Plumbing plans I put together during my decade plus doing Plumbing engineering
typically we would only show the waterline 5 feet outside the building you know the sight civil would show it to the water meter and then you know
they would coordinate with the with the utility but from a plumbing angle we typically only look at about 5et outside the building and then everything inside
so when it comes to the rules on Plumbing you know what we focus on a lot
of parts of design have been codified and this is I think one of the biggest misnomers that people think about plumbing codes is that they’re
restrictive we have to realize when it comes to Plumbing design and installation plumbing codes are more
like a buffet of options than they are a a restrictive methodology and so you
know a thicker plumbing code book does not NE necessarily equate to more rules it just tells what’s allowed because
generally speaking when it comes to the design professional the the registered engineer that’s signing seeing the documents and the installer I can tell
you from over a decade of doing this type of work is if it’s not in the codebook they’re not going to do it because of the concern of losing their
engineering licensure which has been decades you know a decade plus of effort to get or their contractor license and
so you know the beauty of the checks and balances we have with li lure in the US when it comes to construction is is that
safety is the first thought uh because there’s personal responsibility element to this but the negative the flip side
because it’s always a double-edged sword is that new technologies then are slower to be adopted or utilized in the field
unless you start getting codes and standards to specifically indicating them in the plumbing codes and having
standards to back it up but especially the plumbing code that is really you know it’s a it’s a living breathing document that goes under a change every
three years and it is so vital that that you have those different pieces in there
to allow so one of the big ones is appendix M as a mustache which is the
water demand calculator and this was the first time in 80 years that we have gone back and sized domestic Water Systems in
a new way before that we used an 80-year-old methodology many of your listeners may have heard of it uh the Hunter’s curve that still exists in the
plumbing Cod because the water demand calculator only applies to residential but but showing how to size water systems is it has been an integral part
to the plumbing codes and that’s any plumbing code in in North America and even if you start looking overseas most most of the plumbing design has been
pretty well codified across the world so obviously if we overdesign you know
people probably think okay we’re not going to have any demand issues because we have so much more water than we
actually need but we know through taking the course we did through iapmo that
that causes bofilm and that’s causes stagnation so I’m curious when iapmo
redesigned the water demand calculator what considerations were given on things like stagnation and bofilm and dead legs
and all of the things that we know create an area where Legionella can start to grow yes no and and that’s that
was it was a high concern I mean the the water demand calculator was meant to be a replacement for the hunter curve and
and that was done as part of the water efficiency and sanitation standard otherwise known as weand which is the
only standard that focuses on water efficiency while maintaining safety a lot of times when standards have been
developed they focus on sustainability at the exclusion of safety which has unfortunately created some problems when
it comes to water age specifically what I would Point your listeners to is the n consensus report on the management of
Legion and buildings uh which was released I think for public review in 2019 and then officially released in at
the beginning of 2020 but that document in there it says that lowf flow fixture shouldn’t be used in healthcare
facilities and in part that was because of that con concern of water age and that concern of water age is there
because when you look at how the the domestic water system for a hospital is designed designed and for every building
in the US it’s still using that same 80-year-old methodology which was developed by Dr Roy hunter in 1940 as
part of the US Chamber of Commerce and that at that time was revolutionary but he didn’t have a computer and in essence he assumed that every building would
operate you know worst case with a line behind it like a sports Stadium at halftime so congested use we know that
the only buildings that seem to really work like that are maybe theaters at intermission sports stadiums at you know at halftime or or intermission between
periods depending what or Innings between depending on what your your sport of choices um but really past that point we don’t have a lot of buildings
that have those kind of lines especially offices schools and Healthcare facilities included and so because if
you look at how the water system was designed whether it was 40 years ago 20 years ago 10 years ago or today it’s
basically the same sizing methodology because it’s assuming congested use and that was where I atmo partnered with University of Cincinnati and the
American Society of Plumbing Engineers to create the water demand calculator we were able to obtain data for residential
occupancies and with that data for residential occupancies um we were able to look and realize that that
probability of simultaneous use which not was not based on congested use but uncongested use we able to to
drastically reduce Peak flow rates because when you size water systems it’s based on two criteria Peak flow rate and
your pressure drop uh which also includes your available pressure so when you assume a more realistic probability
of use your Peak flow rate reduces drastically which when sizing pipes will mean that your pipe size is reduced for
an example if you looked at a 100 unit apartment comp complex let’s say you know the peak flow rate for that
building you know with all the with all the bathrooms and everything based on Hunter’s curve could end up being about 250 GPM with the water demand calculator
what we uh when you use the use the same number of fixtures it drops down to 40 GPM so that’s a difference between a 4
inch pipe and a 2inch pipe now worth noting that’s an estimated Peak flow rate when you actually put an ultrasonic flow meter on and measure for you know a
couple weeks what the true Peak flow rate is it’s more like 20 so we’re still 2x in terms of peak flow rate but a 2X
factor is much better than like a 20x factor and by reducing that pipe size you’re going to see improvements in
water age your water age is going to decrease so you’re going to have less stagnation time you’re water is going to
be delivered more faster structural Water waste uh we did a report with ar recently to kind of look at a couple
hypothetical examples all those things will end up being improved so um you
know it’s still hard to know because so much of Plumbing research has been has been overlooked for 80 years really once
Dr Roy Hunter died in 1945 all that research in essence ended and and we haven’t done too much until recently
when nist has really picked up the ball and started working on Plumbing research in the last several years which is a
great Kudos and testament to them you know continuing that research so we’re really excited to to see that that the
amount of research happening in the industry right now is occurring and these important questions are being addressed and I atos been at the
Forefront of that again we started this water demand calculator project 10 years ago plus and really saw that fruition
back in 2018 for the first time and and we’re continuing that research now where we’re looking at commercial building
sizing as well so we’re taking it from residential single and multif family to Commercial and that’s another wonderful
opportunity for the industry to help what is your prediction as far as waterborne pathogens go when people
start utilizing this new calculator so the thing with waterbor pathogens is there’s no Silver Bullet you know when
it comes to sustainability or safety there’s no Silver Bullet it’s going to take sort of an all of the above approach that said there are
opportunities and the water demand calcul I think is going to be one of these so my sense is when you you start
looking at the Hard numbers for let’s say a multif family unit because that’s what’s available right now I think that
there’s going to be a question for engineers in terms of liability because many of them are going to be afraid at first to reduce pipe sizes but there’s
this question of litigation on the back end which is if you knowingly oversized it to the point that it was increasing
water age that’s a risk perspective and and a lot of insurance providers are already starting to have exemptions for
waterborne pathogens so my sense is that the market is going to react not
necessarily because of any particular regulation but because of litigation and
especially as the engineers understand that they need to do more in the realm of Plumbing Systems which Plumbing I can
tell you having worked at a many of MEP firms and having been in that industry for so long Plumbing is overlooked it’s
really an afterthought in the realm of of engineering HVAC and electrical you know those two systems account for 80%
of the costs and uh in most buildings MEP systems when you start getting Healthcare Plumbing starts to get a
little bit more of a greater chunk of it because of medical gas systems but Plumbing has been overlooked for a very very long time so the expertise now with
that’s needed because of ashro 188 and and the plumbing codes updating the concern of litigation I I’ve wrote
written several articles about this on PM engineer magazine and I would definitely refer your listeners to that because it’s a trend that I think if you
if you’re paying attention you’ll see it and I think some engineering firms may end up not be paying attention to it and
could get caught up in some not ideal risk that they may not be prepared for
we already spoke about 1280 and we know that that is the official way to say that now what are some other credentials
that uh the scaling up Nation needs to be aware of so they can Endeavor to get
so that’s a great question trace and and I would say one of the first ones that comes to mind in the 12,000 series The
assc 1261 which is water quality program certifications for plumbers that one and
1260 water quality program CER certification for employers these are documents that are really vital for the
the installers that are doing the work inside these facilities and for water treaters to be aware of them you know
that could be a great way for them to find the people that may already be able to speak their language when it comes to
waterborne pathogens other certifications uh to be aware of would be I would say aspy certified and
plumbing design CPD uh which is another credential that I have that one’s a really wonderful one because really at
this time there’s no PE Examination for plumbing so most pees you know like
myself even we had to take an exam even either thermal fluids which really doesn’t touch much on Plumbing
principles or HVAC and refrigeration and I can tell you in the 80 questions I had to take 40 in the morning and 40 in the
afternoon when I took my PE test over a decade ago now I had one question that even got close to plumbing and that was
on fire protection so there is a need for the industry to have a plumbing exam
but up until now really what what’s available is the CPD because Plumbing just has been kind of an afterthought so
I think you know those are the ones that come to my mind on the plumbing side and and it’s not to say that the water
treaters need to get it for themselves I think you know maybe the 1260 series would be a good one to to look at um
depending on what type of work they’re wanting to do but in general you know when they’re part of a water management
program these would be wonderful certifications for for the water treaters to say hey we want to look for
people with these credentials too because they’re going to be able to bring the knowledge needed and they have the requisite knowledge or we can have a
higher degree of confidence that they have the requisite knowledge to do the work that we’re trying to get done here in this facility so the one I think that
everybody needs to Aspire to get that listens to this podcast is the 12080 can you describe what that process is like
how you get credentialed and how you maintain that credential certainly so the the credential it comes with a if I
recall correctly a 32-hour class and you can sign up there’s a few different providers um obviously I atmo you know
we’ve partnered with Dr Janet Stout and we use our atmo learn platform to
basically get everybody on the call but it’s about 32 hours of class and then a test after that point you need to have I
believe it’s an 80% correct out of the the total number of questions and if you get it then you get credentialed you’re
certified to assc 1280 then if I recall correctly uh it’s about every three years you need to be
recertified so have to retake that test although that part I think is a little bit more straightforward you don’t need all those hours of class time uh and
actually I’m about to start that process because I’m about up for my renewal here uh in 2024 for the 1280 and so intent
behind this is to make sure that you’re continuing to show proficiency for these particular topics and even engineering
licensure has a certain number of ceu requirement to to maintain your lure with most States so really the the
process is about making sure that you have a certain level of expertise and a pretty high bar I would say 80% is definitely on the higher end for for
expertise or competence showing what competence you have and then it’s it’s making sure you maintain that have there
been any steps given towards uh cus for requalifying after three years so
somebody doesn’t have to retake the examination I don’t think for the assc
certifications that’s that’s a typical route it’s typically always a certification and I think it just kind of comes in line that most of the time
that’s just that that’s the kind of that process route for the for those particular certifications it just depends Engineers tend to do cus but for
the assc series I mean even when you look at the 6000 series it’s a retest um like the 6020 that I had it would be a
retest so we met and I was familiar with your organization because of the work
that you did in conjunction with the association of water Technologies I’m curious how does iapmo partner with
other associations and what are some of those associations oh wonderful Point uh and I’m so glad you asked that Trace
because really the Partnerships uh that’s a large part of my role uh and and we’re always looking for new
Partnerships so when I joined atmo about three years ago it actually came during
one such partnership which was with awwa uh and that was to create the manual of practices for the safe closure
and reopening of buildings a little bit of a mouthful but we worked with them uh and got a number of Plumbing industry
and water quality industry experts you know in terms of that question of you know when you sh when a building gets
vacated or uh you have a wing of a healthare facility that gets vacated um what should you be doing to keep it safe
since then that has spun off into another one construction practices for potable water which many of the same
volunteers are on but that’s just an iapmo document another one though that we just had released for public review
and finished was water quality for the plumbing industry professional and that came from a relationship that we
developed with asprey uh the environmental science research and policy Institute and worked with Tim
bartrand a really knowledgeable fellow and and we worked collaboratively to create in essence uh what is water
quality uh because most Plumbing industry professionals whether you’re an engineer installer plan reviewer or otherwise we don’t deal with it we don’t
touch on it I had one college chemistry course you know my freshman year and that was kind of it uh most of our work
tends to be on the Hydraulics you know what makes it work you know what are the mechanics behind it but not chemistry and so our industry understanding more
water quality parameters and what they do and what they mean was we saw that there was a need for that in industry
and so you know we ended up working with with ese to create this manual and that was released went through public review
and that looks like that will likely become part of a package with that construction practices for poble water
manual that we’re you know that we’re hoping to release here before the end of this year other organizations we worked with I mentioned aspie you know in part
with my work at iapmo I’ve I’ve definitely been involved with aspy and one of them has been the Legionella design guide uh there was a Legionella
working group as had initiated in 2019 before I joined iapmo but that work continued all the way through uh my
employment bymo and that is an aspy document but we work on other documents all across the industry where we provide
our expertise we got a lot of really wonderful experts um um you know on my team and then also you know in our
organization and so we regularly leas with organizations like aspie or PMI or
uh NFPA or others you know to help share what we know and and to try to make sure that codes and standards are correlated
and they’re cohesive and that they work together so you know ASP and others that’s some of the the different
organizations we’ve worked with and you know when it comes to awt and others you know we would most welcome the opportunity to collaborate uh with
organizations like that because there’s a need and uh would absolutely love to have that expertise shared you know
during through the code proposal process through the code meeting process through the creation of manuals through public
review and comments that can be provided to manuals and and codes so uh there’s a lot of opportunity and we definitely
encourage your listeners to to reach out and and happy to put them in touch with the right mechanism to to getting their voices heard we’ll make sure to put your
contact information on the show notes page if somebody wants to learn more about iapmo where should they go they
should go to iapmo IAP o.org uh and that is our our main web page another spot
for people to go to if they want to see some of the policy implications would be uniform codes. org that’s uniform codes.
org and that that’ll show you some of the the policy components of it I have a couple articles on there uh I did one on
Healthcare acquired infections and the economic cost um and looking at you know how small the cost for plumbing is on a
healthcare facility you know which is typically probably 5% or less of budget and the potential to have you know 30%
plus impact on Healthcare acquired in you know just from the Water Systems alone uh kind of shows that if we do a
little bit more in the Plumbing Systems and maybe we spend a little bit more there that the operations of a healthcare facility can be improved much
more drastically let’s give a plug for your podcast where can people find that
uh they can go to the atmo web page but if you Google uh the authority podcast plumbing and mechanical you can find
right there the first search result um but we put out episodes through Buzz Sprout so that gets to Spotify the itun
Tunes podcast app and others uh we also have a YouTube channel that atmo has that that you know now we’re now
including podcast episodes the video and audio format uh on there as well but uh the atmo web page has it as well but if
you uh if you just Google it or Bing it you know whatever your search platform of choices uh you’ll be able to find it
it’s the first search result so it’s the authority podcast plumbing and mechanical we’ll try to put a link on
the show notes page for that as well so people can find it on their favorite podcast platform well I’ve got a few
lightning round questions for you if you’re ready I’m ready let’s go for it all right if you had the ability to go
back in time and talk to your former self as your first day as an engineer
what advice would you give yourself wonderful question and the first advice I would give on myself is
go to Plumbing I think you know early in my career probably the first three years unfortunately maybe I didn’t have the best attitude about doing Plumbing
design but I would talk to them and say look this is where the opportunity lies this is where you want to really focus
your effort uh and even though early in my career I was kind of doing that initially first you know hearing some of the cool stuff my fellow colleagues uh
were doing from VMI my classmates I was a little bit like man this is what I’m doing um but really it’s turned into one
of the greatest blessings I’ve really found my Niche and I feel really fortunate to be doing the work I do every day so I would say lean into
Plumbing uh there’s a lot of wonderful opportunity and room for growth there love it what would you say your
superpower is you know I would say my superpower is
that my worry about being embarrassed is very low um I don’t mind asking
questions and I’m not worried about looking dumb if I ask a question and I think that served me really well in my
career um because ultimately that’s you know where I cold called Dr Janice Stout
and and asked her questions I wasn’t worried about hearing no and I think that’s really served me well because
I’ve been able to get a lot more information more quickly I think by being willing to sort of pop my head up and say hey what does this mean is this
correct and and even even going out to when I do public speeches you know I always tell people I know about this much you know with my hands about an
inch apart you all know collectively as I stretch my hands out all the way you know as far as they go that’s how much
you all know so I’m going to share what little I know and I’m hoping to learn from you all too uh and so I think that
recognition of that there’s always more to learn um that I’m I’m hungry for it and that I’m always asking questions
without necessarily worry about being looking like the the silly one in the room I think that’s really been really helpful for me as as far as part of my
superpower for my career what are the last few books that you’ve read so I would say there’s a few
of them that are really good um from a water industry book uh the most recent one I read was the three ages of water
that was really well done that talks sort of about what how we’ve looked at water in the past and now and in the
future just a really wonderful water Plumbing book another one that I recently read was the Crux by Richard
rumelt uh which talks about strategy and I have always tended to look at systems
um you know strategy and and and putting things together as a whole as opposed to the sum of the parts and and that is
probably one of the best books on how to formulate good strategy and I think that’s a must read Because if you can formulate a good strategy you should
also be able to formulate a good system and think through what the unintended consequences are as far as third book I
would have to say it was Let There Be Water by Seth seagull and that book was
a really wonderful one um also another water book but in that book he talked about how
uh Israel you know a desert nation has really been smart about finding ways to to to maximize their amount of water
available their supplies while reducing their demand on water and that came through water reuse through smarter
Distribution Systems uh they really took a a holistic look at how to do water in that in that country and so that’s a
really good one that I would recommend as well really enjoyed that one and and have listened a number of podcasts on that when Hollywood listens to this
podcast episode and they decide to write a movie about your life who do you want playing Kristoff oh jeez that’s a tough
one um so when it comes to playing me uh I would say I mean I I immigrated from
Germany when I was young I was three years old when I immigrated to the US and so I’m very much uh your I guess
prototypical you know blond hair blue-eyed German so it would be tough I mean if you’re trying to do my younger life I don’t know many of the young
actors there but uh in uh I guess if it was when I’m older um I would have to
say could be kind of cool to have Brad Pit uh uh doing uh doing one I always I
always enjoyed his movies quite a bit uh so that would maybe be the one I would pick well I want to thank you for coming
on the scaling up Podcast and uh sharing all about IAT Mo and opening our eyes to
some things that I think a lot of our listeners had not considered before excellent well Trace I just want to say
thank you so much for the opportunity to chat uh really appreciate the time and and just I’ve always enjoyed your
podcast so really excited to have been part of one [Music] well Kristoff thanks again for coming on
the scaling up H2O podcast and Nation I want to say a few things about iapmo and
if you didn’t know iapmo stands for the International Association of plumbing
and mechanical officials and I maybe have heard about iapmo but I didn’t meet
anybody from iapmo until the association of water Technologies had their
conference in Canada last year and I got to meet John Mullen he was a speaker he
also came on this podcast on 294 and he really opened my eyes with
all the things that iapmo does and all of the synergies that we have not only with the association of water
Technologies but with the scaling up H2O podcast so since that time he’s
introduced me to many people throughout iapmo and I got to meet Kristoff through
John talking about great people and talk about great programs too they are the ones that are doing the assc
12,080 course uh they work with Janet Stout that was a course that we talked
about during the interview and in the beginning of the podcast we talked about getting the certified water technologist
designation well maybe that’s a longer term goal because it takes you five years of experience to get that maybe
something that you can do is get a designation like the assc
12080 and there’s so many ways that you can get that but one of those is working
with I atmo and taking one of those courses so I urge you that you are
always looking at your professional development and trying to ascertain how
do you make tomorrow better than today and when you look at your career that
way when you look at your life that way things just get better I’ve never been happy was standing still but when I’m
moving forward and I know I’m getting things like certain designations that’s kind of proof that I’m moving forward
and it’s always helped my confidence and it’s always made me not only a better
industrial water Trader but also a better fill-in the blank whether that’s a salesperson whether that’s a Committee
Member whatever it is that extra knowledge now helps me with whatever I
am doing and it’s my hope that that’s the same attitude that you take now if
you want to look at some of these designations you can go to our show notes page and we will have a several of
them listed for you and if you sign up for something now if you sign up for the
cwt course we’re going to know about it because we actually put that on but if you sign up for something else I’d love
to know about it maybe hash scaling up H2O in a post on your LinkedIn or
wherever you are on social media and let us know that you are taking the the
challenges that we’re putting forth on the scaling up H2O podcast each and every week I of course give you a
challenge to let me know if you’ve got something you want me to talk about or a guest that you want me to interview so
you can do that by going to scaling up h2o.com and navigating over to our show
ideas page and something else that I don’t talk about enough and the great team here at scaling up H2O says that I
need to mention it because every time I mention it people do it and what am I talking about well that is putting a
review on your favorite podcast player about this podcast that helps us so much
with not only our ratings but pushing us up in search engines to make it easier for people to find us and I would love
it if every industrial water Trader knew about this podcast I’d love it even more if every industrial water Trader
listened to this podcast every single week but one water treater at a time we
will get there and something you can do to help us out with that mission is to leave a review on your favorite podcast
player so thank you in advance for that and as a thank you gift I will have a
brand new episode for you next Friday until then take care
[Music] folks Scout up Nation are you getting
ready to take your certified water technologist examin ation do you wish you just had a little bit of extra help
to build your confidence so you can sign up for the exam well Nation I’ve heard
you and I’ve got what you were asking for I work each one of the 75 mock
questions that you receive when you sign up to take your certified water technologist designation I share with
you the logic behind how I get to certain answers and I show you how to set up each math equation go to scaling
up h2o.com cwt prep once again that’s scaling up h2o.com
cwt prep to get enrolled
today